[ukmicky]

You can't win give up,i have finally.[]  its like the plane on a backwards moving walkway , some people get it and understand how it will still take off, whereas others just cant.

Michael

[Precursor]

quote:Also look how big your big steel shipping buoys need to be to attain the required internal volume in order for them to have a lower density than the water their displacing due to their dry weight and for your design to revolve any buoys incorporated in it would need to be small and slim line otherwise your going to have a nightmare trying to design the components which the buoys have to pass through or over .

Ok the size doesn't matter.  When it comes to the big steel buoys if made small would have less weight and would require less air trapped inside to keep it buoyant.  As for saying they were weightless?  Yes you did.  Here is what you said.

quote:You can’t use gravity to overcome your friction loses as the buoys will then be to heavy to be buoyant.

So with what you said there you are suggesting that anything that is buoyant would have no weight since you can't have weight and buoancy at the same time as you put it.  That you can't have one without the other.  That would mean by what YOU said all those buoys when out of water are weightless since as you put it if they had weight then they wouldn't be buoyant.  The friction losses that the weight of the buoys over come are the wheels that would take the weight of one buoy (roughly 3 lbs) and the air drag (that isn't big enough to even be even looked at) that can be easily over come by a fraction of the weight of just one buoy.  So to say that I can't use gravity to overcome these friction points because I wouldn't have buoyancy would mean that for the buoys to be buoyant in the water would have to be weightless when out of the water.  Besides most of the weight while outside comes from the fluid filled gaps that once they become submerged do become weightless.

quote:And how many of them large steel shipping buoys do you think will be needed to lift the dry weight of the four in your drawing that are rising and are not in the water

You obviously didn't read it.  I said that the four that are rising and are not submerged are counter balanced by the four on the other side of the wheels that are on their way down.  It's called the neutral point around the wheels that I was talking about.  If you had bothered to read than you have realized that the buoyancy of the buoys submerged is not used to lift any buoy except the one that is entering through the seal.  Plus the buoys used in the design won't be big steel buoys.  I have repeatedly said that they would be buoys of eight inch diameter with a shell that is stiff rubber material.

quote:you’re not lifting buoys in water as they are lifting themselves. what you have to lift is the dry weight of the buoys that haven’t entered through the seal yet and the buoys which have exited the water but haven’t reached TDC yet.

Again you said the same thing that I have already said was wrong.  If you had bothered to read the long post I made after the last two pics I did some simple math.  It turns out that roughly the weight of the buoys and fluid filled gaps can not only turn the wheels but can lift the buoys that have reached the surface of the main body of fluid, lift the buoys up to the seal and counter the weight of fluid pushing down on the buoy trying to enter.  The ONLY force that buoyancy drives is stretching the seal and move the system.

quote: Try it.

Again look at my post with the math.  5 inch (not two feet) diameter "hatch" is needed to allow the buoys in and a cylinder of fluid that is five inches in diameter and 128 inches high (10 1/2 feet) will weight 70 pounds provided that the fluid weights .007 pounds per cubic inch.  Pick up a cubic inch of vegetable oil (since I believe that would work best) and feels how much it weights.  Sure it will have more weight than .007 pounds but the weight works for and against in such a way to cancel each other out so it doesn't really matter.  Oh and as for try it?  True stories of men in subs deep under the surface.  Hull rips open, water poors in at a pressure of that of a few atmospheres (many times more than a two foot wide ten foot high cylinder of water).  Takes about three men to shut a three foot hatch with cubic feet rushing through it.  So can it be done with as little water as been mentioned here?  Just as long as my two feet are planted on a firm surface.  I can lift with my legs alone somewhere up to 250 to 275 lbs.  A volume of water that is 10 feet high with a two foot diameter weights about that.

quote:I think you will find that the specific gravity of water changes with its temperature.

Here is a quote from an encyclopedia;

quote:specific gravity, ratio of the weight of a given volume of a substance to the weight of an equal volume of some reference substance, or, equivalently, the ratio of the masses of equal volumes of the two substances.

Since mass is related to density than yes the specific gravity will change but not in the same way as density since you have to factor in volume with density to get your mass.  Anyway it doesn't even matter.  Makes no difference.

[Precursor]

quote:by the magnet pulling up on the fluid with more force than gravity pulls down causes the object to not be bouyant. It doesn't need to "stop" gravity or whatever you were suggesting I was saying. In this case the ferrofluid is suspended in the air, more than counteracting the force of gravity, which caused the bouyancy in the first place. To elaborate, lets say you had a cup full of ferrofluid, a magnet on the bottom which pulled the ferrofluid twice as hard as gravity. If you measured the bouyant force, when the cup was upside down, the force would be negative, or the object would move downwards against gravity, if you turned it rightside up, the bouyant force would be three times the usual all upward acting.

Ok it doesn't matter since when it comes to the ferro fluid design it would be better not to use any floats at all.  To use the fluid itself instead of the floats.  As in when the fluid gets pulled in toward the magnet the tube containing the fluid becomes over filled by a little bit.  This will create spillage at the top and this spillage (due to gravity) will travel down the chutes provided away from the field of the magnet but will in the end return back into range of the magnet to get pulled back into the fluid to create the over fill once again.  Why doesn't the magnet keep the fluid from spilling?  Because the magnetic shield keeps the magnet from influencing the fluid above it.  Why wouldn't the magnet keep the fluid from passing the shield in the first place?  Because a magnets attraction is strongest at the poles and with the pole pressed up against the wall of the tube of fluid than this is what pulls the fluid in to create the horizontal surface at the bottom.  Now it's easier for the fluid to travel with the lines of flux than against them and this is what allows the fluid to travel up the tube.  Because it is easier for the fluid to follow the lines of flux (travel up the tube) than work against them (back through the opening at the bottom) that means when the fluid coming down the line combines back with the main body of fluid it is easier for this increased pressure to travel up instead of directly away.  Now once this pressure reaches the shield it is far enough that it will keep on going.  So really the path up the tube is the path of least resistance when it comes to the two ways the fluid can travel and since fluids are uncompressable than when the spillage meets back up with the main body, the main body instantly becomes over filled.  Kinda like that toy with the steel balls.  Lift the one at the end and let it go, as soon as the ball hits the next one the energy is instantly transmitted to the last ball on the other end.  Same Idea with the ferro fluid.

[Precursor]

Just like to add once again that energy can neither be created nor destroyed and can only change forms.  This has been proven time and time again.  With this rule of physics alone it proves that the universe itself is a perpetual motion machine.  So perpetual motion is a rule of our existence.  To say perpetual motion is impossible is to say the universe does not exist.

[thebrain13]

with this ferrofluid design of spillage. Bottom line youve got to forces. the magnet and gravity which ever one is stronger is where the ferrofluid would hang out, slanting towards the weaker force, it has no reason to spin or start spinning.

[Precursor]

quote:with this ferrofluid design of spillage. Bottom line youve got to forces. the magnet and gravity which ever one is stronger is where the ferrofluid would hang out, slanting towards the weaker force, it has no reason to spin or start spinning.

So your just going to ignore the shielding altogether are you.  Well I'm not about to explain any further if your not going to lisen.

[ukmicky]

The ferro fluid is going to go everywhere, it will coat the ball and be transfered to places you dont want it lowering the level more and more in the part where the ball needs to rise and jump out.

Michael

[Precursor]

quote:The ferro fluid is going to go everywhere, it will coat the ball and be transfered to places you dont want it lowering the level more and more in the part where the ball needs to rise and jump out.

Like I said, I'm not even gonna bother explaining it further if your not going to even bother to listen.  Latest discussion on the ferro fluid design doesn't have a ball, not one.

[thebrain13]

how can you get the fluid to move through a magnetic shield?

[Precursor]

It's a matter of path of least resistance.  The magnet is strong enough to create a horizontal surface.  Since the magnet is strong enough to do this than it will do this.  If by the magnet doing this cause the main tube to become overfull then a little bit will spill at the top (where the magnet has no influence because the the magnetic shield) and run down the spillway.  Once the spillage gets to the bottom of the spillway it enters the range of the magnet and gets pulled in.  Once it gets pulled in the magnet will create the horizontal surface once again because it has the strength to.  However this will cause the tube to become over full.  The only way for the main tube not to become over full is if the spillage doesn't enter the horizontal surface.  But the stongest point of a magnet is its poles and with the pole pulling the spillage in then the path of least resistance is up the tube since the magnetic pull pulling the fluid down (below the shield) is weaker than the magnetic pull pulling in the spillage.  Path of least resistance.

[Precursor]

quote: how can you get the fluid to move through a magnetic shield?

The shield is on the outside of the tube.

[Precursor]

I was wrong with the Permanent Magnetic Motor.  Howard is Johnson.  However Howard Johnson doesn't own the patent anymore and the website I came across (which for some reason I can't find it anymore) had the math and graphs with readings taken from a working model along with a link to a video.  So I've came across websites that had Howard having built a working model but with no evidence and then came across this one site that had some proof.

quote:maybe if you did a normal fluid, without magnets, and the balls are passing through some sort of a funnel that will let the ball through one way, but will not let the water out. Any water spilled when the ball goes through can be collected in a drain and brought back to the top somehow. That requires no magnetism, and the only energy used to pump the spilled water could be generated by the wheel istelf, and excess energy will be used in whatever you are powering.

The design introduced by realmswalker is the one that uses magnets where it's NCoppedge's design doesn't use magnets and is the one that has the buoys entering from the bottom.  Two different designs.

quote:That will not work because as soon as the ball enters the fluid through the one-way valve, it displaces a volume of that fluid which is equal to its own volume. It does so at the point of highest pressure, meaning that it must do work on the fluid equal to that pressure times its volume. Then it floats up, recovering exactly this energy (less viscous drag as well as the mgh figure for the ball, etc) by the time it reaches the top. Result: Zero net energy generated.

Even if it is pressure times volume if the tank of water is kept narrow as to allow only one string of buoys through than this will reduce the bottom pressure.  Reduce it enough that it would be no different than the pressure at the top.  Besides the resistance would be the weight of water (assuming water is the fluid used) that is equal to the diameter of the buoy minus the diameter of the connecting line and having the height of the water.  So if the buoy is 5 in. dia. and the connecting line is 1 in. and the depth of the water is 5 ft. than the resistance would be the weight of water that has the dimentions of 4 in. dia. and 5 ft. high.  If each buoy is 5 in. dia. and the depth of the water is 5 ft. than you can have quite a few buoys in the water.  Enough to pull the next one through the seal.  Even if it doesn't work out to be more.  That the combined pull of the buoys in the water will only equal the resistance than you still have x amount of buoys being pulled down by gravity.

[Roy P]

My 'hosepipe-with-internal-sealed-pockets' notion was used only to illustrate the problem.

Look. It doesn't matter how many buoys are used -- two, or, as someone else has already pointed out, a million, it will not work!

OK: Start from the beginning, using only two buoys -- one entering the base of the liquid, and one just about to descend. Would that work? Of course it wouldn't!

Now try it with FOUR buoys equidistant from each other. Same problem!

It's a no goer!

__________________________________________________________
Roy P

[Precursor]

quote:Start from the beginning, using only two buoys -- one entering the base of the liquid, and one just about to descend. Would that work? Of course it wouldn't!

There's your problem.  Yes that would not work because it requires the force of multiple buoys in the water to pull the next one through the seal.  One about to enter while the other is about to descend?  That's your example as to why it wouldn't work?  Seeing as how you don't have any other buoys applying any type of force than yes it won't work.  The system would work because of multiple buoys.  

Lets look at the resistances.  

The two wheels resistance to turn,
The drag on the buoys as they pass through the water,
The drag on the buoys as they fall outside the tank,
The buoys that have to be lifted up out of the water,
The buoys that have to be lifted up to the seal,
The buoys that have to pass through the seal,
The buoys have to work against the water above.

Now lets look at the forces that will run and help run the machine.

Buoyancy,
Gravity,
Current.

So starting with the wheels resistance to turn, provided they are equipped with a bearing than they would be much like a bike tire.  The weight of one buoy being pulled by gravity is enough to overcome this resistance.  Plus once the wheels are turning it requires less force to keep them going at a constant speed.

The drag put on them as they rise.  The fact that each buoy is able to ascend rather rapidly as I have seen myself by simply taking a volleyball under water and letting it go, this drag will not have an impact.  Also once a current is developed than this drag is reduced.

The drag with the air on the way down.  Drop a volleyball from any distance and see how fast it drops.  Drag from the air will have even less impact than the drag from the water.

The buoys being lifted up out of the water and the buoys being lifted up to the seal.  This combined distance working against gravity would be easily compensated by the buoys being pulled down by gravity.  With lots to spare.

Passing through the seal.  This would have to be the second biggest influence when it comes to going against operation.  Now I recomment a light oil or maybe even soapy water instead of regular water.  This way both the buoys and the seal will get rather slippery and reduce much of the resistance with the seal.  So the only real resistance is stretching the seal.  The seal can be made rather flexable easing this resistance and still hold a seal and the water with its shape.  If an inverted cone shaped seal is used than the pressure of the water will ensure a good seal.  It will still require x number of buoys submerged at one time but I think the excess weight on the outside of the tank may be enough to take care of the seal resistance.

This leaves the number one resistance.  Weight of the water acting upon the seal.  It will require x number of buoys submerged at any one time to overcome this resistance.  From experiments I did in a pool, I'm convince that this resistance can easily be overcome by the combined buoyancy of multiple buoys in the water.  The current that will develop will aid in pulling the next buoy up through the seal.

[ukmicky]

quote:Originally posted by Precursor

Ok first lets look at the resistance of the buoys being lifted out of the water and pushed up to the seal.  If the buoy only has to rise a foot to get to the top of the wheel and get pushed a foot from the lower most point up to the seal that means you have two feet of gravity working against you.  Take that two feet and put it up against the (for example sake) 10 feet that the buoys will be travelling down with gravety.  If the buoys are spaced so there is one for every foot than you have the weight of 10 buoys being pulled by gravity working against two.  The ten wins out.  So the two working against you will cancel out two working for you leaving you with eight to be used to over come other frictions within the system.  The wheels will rotate on a bearing so only the weight of one buoy being pulled down by gravity can over come both wheels and then some.  So you are left with the weight of seven buoys working in unison with the buoyancy of the buoys inside to overcome the resistance to enter the system at the bottom.

Add to one thing and you take from another.

You can’t use gravity to overcome your friction loses as the buoys will then be to heavy to be buoyant. You can’t have weight and buoyancy in your system.

quote:Linking multiple buoys is not the same as just having a hollow tube.  Each buoy is a seperate entity and will portray buoyancy.  Having them linked together allows them to combine their buoyancy.  To work together.  The reaso why one works and not the other is because with the buoys air is trapped within each buoy where if you just had a hollow tube than the air isn't trapped.  Buoyancy exists when you have air trapped and submerged.  Without one or the other than you won't have buoyancy.

 

Yes it is, your buoys are all connected to one line,one continuous circuit.  The only difference is that the buoyancy force is more evenly spread with the tube.
Also a bouyancy force is created when the density of the submerged object is less than that of the fluid that it is displacing.



 

quote:So that would really only leave the resistance from the fluid to be overcome.  The combined buoyancy of the buoys within the fluid should be greater than this resistance.  Even if it can't be more and only the same than you still have the weight of the seven buoys being pulled down by gravity on the outside to turn the device.

Your sitting their thinking that an air filled buoy or ten air filled buoys will provide enough buoyancy to overcome all the energy loses without measuring or knowing the actual loses involved or at what points your loses are made,if you were look at the design properly you would realize that at every single point of the buoys travel around the system energy is being lost or should i say converted, even their movement through the air will cause the system to lose something, in some places they maybe minor and not measurable by you but add everything together and you would see that in order for the loop of buoys to turn energy would have to be added to the system from an outside source.

quote:
This leaves the number one resistance. Weight of the water acting upon the seal. It will require x number of buoys submerged at any one time to overcome this resistance. From experiments I did in a pool, I'm convince that this resistance can easily be overcome by the combined buoyancy of multiple buoys in the water. The current that will develop will aid in pulling the next buoy up through the seal.

This plus the weight of the water pushing against the buoy trying to enter the tank would be enough to halt the system alone. Also a volletball may rise quickly in water but imagine trying to push a volley ball through a open volleyball size hatch in a submarine with ten foot of water above you trying to come in.



Michael

[Precursor]

quote:You can’t use gravity to overcome your friction loses as the buoys will then be to heavy to be buoyant. You can’t have weight and buoyancy in your system.

LOL oh my.  So the buoys would be weightless would they?  That if they weren't tied down they would float away?  I suppose those big steel buoys found in high traffic boating areas  must be weightless too if they can float.

quote:Yes it is, your buoys are all connected to one line,one continuous circuit. The only difference is that the buoyancy force is more evenly spread with the tube.
Also a bouyancy force is created when the density of the submerged object is less than that of the fluid that it is displacing.

Take a 10 lb weight and put it on the bottom of a pool.  Add a buoy that has a buoyant force of 3 lbs.  The weight will keep the buoy down.  Add two more and the weight will keep all three down.  Add a fourth and the weight will be lifted to the surface.  The buoyancy of the buoys add together.  The weight will be lifted off the bottom with an upwards force of 2 lbs.  So no it's not the same thing.  The buoys individually will have buoyancy and when linked together they combine their efforts.  Yes buoyancy is when you have something that is less dense submerged in something that is more but for the example you gave the difference as to why one would work and not the other is the trapped air.  More specifically it's specific gravity.  Water has a specific gravity of one, anything will less will float and anything with higher will sink.

quote:Your sitting their thinking that an air filled buoy or ten air filled buoys will provide enough buoyancy to overcome all the energy loses without measuring or knowing the actual loses involved or at what points your loses are made,if you were look at the design properly you would realize that at every single point of the buoys travel around the system energy is being lost or should i say converted, even their movement through the air will cause the system to lose something, in some places they maybe minor and not measurable by you but add everything together and you would see that in order for the loop of buoys to turn energy would have to be added to the system from an outside source.

First it's called life experience.  I live next to the ocean and have been swimming my entire life and I can tell you that the wheels would have such little resistance that the weight of just one buoy would be enough to turn them.  Air drag will have an unmeasurable affect and the distance where the buoys have to go against gravity will be overcome by the increased distance where the buoys are getting pulled down by gravity.  As for knowing where and what the loss are I listed them or atleast the one that will have the most effect.  I then explained how each factor would be overcome.  Like drag with the air will have almost no effect.

quote:This plus the weight of the water pushing against the buoy trying to enter the tank would be enough to halt the system alone. Also a volletball may rise quickly in water but imagine trying to push a volley ball through a open volleyball size hatch in a submarine with ten foot of water above you trying to come in.

This is the weight of the water pushing against the buoy there is no 'plus' about it.  Your adding the same thing to itself.  As for trying to open a hatch with ten feet of water above it, as long as that ten feet only has a diameter of two feet then opening the hatch would require some effort but is more than possible.  

Now I'm just curious but what level of science have you taken?  What grade are you in?  Because all that I quoted was babble.

[Roy P]

quote:Originally posted by Precursor
and the distance where the buoys have to go against gravity will be overcome by the increased distance where the buoys are getting pulled down by gravity.

This is another mistake in your reasoning. You forget that both sides of the line contain the same amount of buoys and are therefore equal in 'weight'.

__________________________________________________________
Roy P

[Precursor]

quote:This is another mistake in your reasoning. You forget that both sides of the line contain the same amount of buoys and are therefore equal in 'weight'.

Wrong.  One side is submerged and therefore has buoyancy so only one side is being pulled down by gravity.  The buoyancy of those submerged not only counter any gravitational pull upon them but also provide considerable lift.  So it can be said that while those on the outside have weight, those on the inside have negetive weight.  Negetive weight equivalent to their buoyancy.  I have seen myself by taking a ball (about the size of a volleyball) to the bottom of a pool (15 feet) that the buoyancy is greater than that of the weight of the ball.  It is actually the weight of water equal to the volume of the ball or put another way, equal to the amount of water displaced.  So when the outside has weight pulling down by gravity, the inside will have negetive weight equal to the amount of displaced fluid the buoys are submerged in.  So while a volleyball sized buoy may way 2 or 3 lbs being pulled by gravity they will have closer to 15 lbs of negetive weight (buoyancy) while submerged.  If you have 10 buoys submerged at one time with their buoyancy all working together to pull the next buoy through the seal that is 150 lbs of pull.  Would 150 lbs be enough?  Absolutely.

If you were to go with what I suggested (what NCoppedge goes with is entirely up to him since it's his idea) than the seal doesn't have to stretch that much.  My suggestion is to take the buoys and stuff them into a tube.  So you have eight inch buoys stuffed into a three inch stretch (yet strong) tube.  You then fill the gaps in the tube between each buoy with the same fluid the buoys are submerged in.  What this will do is add to the weight on the outside being pulled down by gravity while having no negetive effect on the inside,  reduce the amount of stretching the seal has to do to let the next buoy in and provide a nice smooth curve of a surface around the buoys so the seal keeps the seal.

[Roy P]

quote:Originally posted by Precursor
Wrong.  One side is submerged and therefore has buoyancy

Nope, you are wrong. They are equally balanced. The inner buoys will be *pulling* the exterior buoys down.

quote:You then fill the gaps in the tube between each buoy with the same fluid the buoys are submerged in.

Don't be silly. That's like a piston. The buoys will have to 'lift' the water as well as themselves.

__________________________________________________________
Roy P

[Precursor]

quote:Nope, you are wrong. They are equally balanced. The inner buoys will be *pulling* the exterior buoys down

Ok first you said that those on the inside and those on the outside would be balanced and therefore not go anywhere.  That is wrong.  Yes gravity is still acting upon the ones on the inside but buoyancy dominates.  So the weight of the buoys become not only inverted but addition force is applied.  In short the 2 to 3 pounds that the buoy weighs will become 15 pounds of lift when submerged.  Assuming that a buoy filled with the fluid rather than air weighs 15 pounds. To say otherwise is like saying that a ball when tossed into the water will sink instead of float.  That is just idiotic.

Now you say that the buoys inside would get held back by the ones on the outside falling.  Not only is this also wrong but it goes against what you first said.  It's wrong because any object with buoyancy is capable of falling at a faster rate than ascending.  Take a ball and take it down 15 ft in a pool as I did and let it go.  The ball will reach a terminal velocity.  A velocity at which the ball can not go any faster because the increased drag (that comes with the increased speed) with the water is great enough to counter further acceleration.  Take the same ball and drop it from 15 ft up in the air.  The ball dropped from 15 ft above the pool will reach the surface faster than the one taken 15 ft under and let go.  This is because air is less dense than water and therefore the ball is able to reach a faster terminal velocity.  So will the submerged buoys be working to pull the ones on the outside down?  NO.  It will actually be the opposite.  The weight of the buoys would help pull the ones submerged up.  So really the buoys getting pulled down by gravity would be held back by the buoys that are submerged.  This works in favor of the system working.

quote:Don't be silly. That's like a piston. The buoys will have to 'lift' the water as well as themselves.

There is a short distance where the buoys have to go against the pull of gravity without being under the influence of buoyancy.  Say that the buoys are spaced a foot apart and that there are ten feet and therefore ten buoys getting pulled down by gravity.  Lets also say that with the diameter of the wheels that there is a combined total of 2 feet and therefore 2 buoys getting lifted against gravity.  Lets add the fluid (equal to that of which the buoys are submerged) into the tube that contains the buoys to fill in the gaps between buoys.  So you have two buoys and two gaps of fluid going against gravity but you also have ten buoys and ten gaps of fluid being pulled by gravity.  Two out of the ten will cancel out the two on the other side of the equation.  That leaves you with 8 buoys and gaps of fluid being pulled down by gravity.  The weight of one buoy is enough to turn the wheels so you are left with seven buoys and eight gaps of fluid being pulled down by gravity.  Here is the key factor.  When the buoys enter the fluid, the gaps filled with the same fluid become weightless.  So you have additional weight being pulled down by gravity and the same amount of buoyancy with the submerged buoys.