[DonQuichotte (OP)]

The Physical Effectiveness of Conscious Will
and the Quantum Zeno Effect:


A crucial question now arises: How does this dynamical psychoneurological
connection via process 1, which can merely pose a question,
but not answer it, allow a person’s effort to influence his or her
physical actions?
Take an example. Suppose you are in a situation that calls for you to
raise your arm. Associations via stored memories should elicit a brain
activity having a component that when active on former occasions
resulted in your experiencing your arm rise, and in which the template
for arm-raising is active. According to the theory, this component of
brain activity will, if sufficiently strong, cause an associated process
1 action to occur. This process 1 action will partition the quantum
state of your brain in such a way that one component, labeled ‘Yes’,
will be this component in which the arm-raising template is active. If
the ‘Yes’ option is selected by nature then you will experience yourself
causing your arm to rise, and the state of your brain will be such that
the arm-raising template is active.
But the only dynamical freedom offered by the quantum formalism
in this situation is the freedom to perform at a selected time some
process 1 action. Whether or not the ‘Yes’ component is actualized is
determined by ‘nature’ on the basis of a statistical law. So the effectiveness
of the ‘free choice’ of this process 1 in achieving the desired
end would generally be quite limited. The net effect of this ‘free choice’
would tend to be nullified by the randomness in nature’s choice between
‘Yes’ and its negation ‘No’.
A well-known non-classical feature of quantum theory provides,
however, a way to overcome this problem, and convert the available
‘free choices’ into effective mental causation.
The Quantum Zeno Effect:
A well studied feature of the dynamical rules of quantum theory is this:
Suppose a process 1 query that leads to a ‘Yes’ outcome is followed

by a rapid sequence of very similar process 1 queries. That is, suppose
a sequence of identical or very similar process 1 actions is performed,
that the first outcome is ‘Yes’, and that the actions in this sequence
occur in very rapid succession on the time scale of the evolution of
the original ‘Yes’ state. Then the dynamical rules of quantum theory
entail that the sequence of outcomes will, with high probability, all
be ‘Yes’: the original ‘Yes’ state will, with high probability, be held
approximately in place by the rapid succession of process 1 actions,
even in the face of very strong physical forces that would, in the absence
of this rapid sequence of actions, quickly cause the state to evolve into
some very different state (Stapp 2004a, Sect. 12.7.3).
The timings of the process 1 actions are, within the orthodox formulations,
controlled by the ‘free choices’ on the part of the agent.
Mental effort applied to a conscious intent increases the intensity of
the experience. Thus it is consistent and reasonable to suppose that
the rapidity of a succession of essentially identical process 1 actions can
be increased by mental effort. But then we obtain, as a mathematical
consequence of the basic dynamical laws of quantum mechanics described
by von Neumann, a potentially powerful effect of mental effort
on the brain of the agent! Applying mental effort increases the rapidity
of the sequence of essentially identical intentional acts, which then
causes the template for action to be held in place, which then produces
the brain activity that tends to produce the intended feedback.
This ‘holding-in-place’ effect is called the quantum Zeno effect, an
appellation that was picked by the physicists E.C.G. Sudarshan and
R. Misra (1977) to highlight a similarity of this effect to the ‘arrow’
paradox discussed by the fifth century B.C. Greek philosopher, Zeno
the Eleatic. Another name for this effect is ‘the watched-pot effect’.
The quantum Zeno effect can, in principle, hold an intention and
its template in place in the face of strong mechanical forces that would
tend to disturb it. This means that agents whose mental efforts can
sufficiently increase the rapidity of process 1 actions would enjoy a survival
advantage over competitors that lack such features. They could
sustain beneficial templates for action in place longer than competitors
who lack this capacity. Thus the dynamical rules of quantum mechanics
allow conscious effort to be endowed with the causal efficacy needed
to permit its deployment and evolution via natural selection.

[DonQuichotte (OP)]

 William James’s Theory of Volition:


This theory was already in place when a colleague, Dr. Jeffrey Schwartz,
brought to my attention some passages from Psychology: The Briefer
Course, written by William James. In the final section of the chapter
on Attention, James (1892) writes:
I have spoken as if our attention were wholly determined by
neural conditions. I believe that the array of things we can attend
to is so determined. No object can catch our attention
except by the neural machinery. But the amount of the attention
which an object receives after it has caught our attention
is another question. It often takes effort to keep mind upon
it. We feel that we can make more or less of the effort as we
choose. If this feeling be not deceptive, if our effort be a spiritual
force, and an indeterminate one, then of course it contributes
coequally with the cerebral conditions to the result. Though it
introduce no new idea, it will deepen and prolong the stay in
consciousness of innumerable ideas which else would fade more
quickly away. The delay thus gained might not be more than
a second in duration – but that second may be critical; for in
the rising and falling considerations in the mind, where two associated
systems of them are nearly in equilibrium it is often a
matter of but a second more or less of attention at the outset,
whether one system shall gain force to occupy the field and develop
itself and exclude the other, or be excluded itself by the
other. When developed it may make us act, and that act may
seal our doom. When we come to the chapter on the Will we
shall see that the whole drama of the voluntary life hinges on
the attention, slightly more or slightly less, which rival motor
ideas may receive.
In the chapter on Will, in the section entitled Volitional Effort is Effort
of Attention, James writes:
Thus we find that we reach the heart of our inquiry into volition
when we ask by what process it is that the thought of any given
action comes to prevail stably in the mind.
And later
The essential achievement of the will, in short, when it is most
‘voluntary’, is to attend to a difficult object and hold it fast

before the mind. [. . . ] Effort of attention is thus the essential
phenomenon of will.
Still later, James says:
Consent to the idea’s undivided presence, this is effort’s sole
achievement. [. . . ] Everywhere, then, the function of effort is
the same: to keep affirming and adopting the thought which, if
left to itself, would slip away.
James apparently recognized the incompatibility of these pronouncements
with the physics of his day. At the end of Psychology: The
Briefer Course, he said, presciently, of the scientists who would one
day illuminate the mind–body problem:
The best way in which we can facilitate their advent is to understand
how great is the darkness in which we grope, and
never forget that the natural-science assumptions with which
we started are provisional and revisable things.
It is a testimony to the power of the grip of old ideas on the minds
of scientists and philosophers alike that what was apparently evident
to William James already in 1892 – namely that a revision of the mechanical
precepts of nineteenth century physics would be needed to
accommodate the structural features of our conscious experiences –
still fails to be recognized by many of the affected professionals even
today, more than three-quarters of a century after the downfall of classical
physics, apparently foreseen by James, has come, much-heralded,
to pass.
James’s description of the effect of volition on the course of mind–
brain process is remarkably in line with what had been proposed, independently,
from purely theoretical considerations of the quantum
physics of this process. The connections described by James are explained
on the basis of the same dynamical principles that had been
introduced by physicists to explain atomic phenomena. Thus the whole
range of science, from atomic physics to mind–brain dynamics, is
brought together in a single rationally coherent theory of a world that
is constituted not of matter, as classically conceived, but rather of
an informational structure that causally links the two elements that
combine to constitute actual scientific practice, namely the psychologically
described contents of our streams of conscious experiences and
the mathematically described objective tendencies that tie our chosen
actions to experience.
No comparable success has been achieved within the framework of
classical physics, in spite of intense efforts spanning more than three
centuries. The reasons for this failure are easy to see: classical physics
systematically exorcizes all traces of mind from its precepts, thereby
banishing any logical foothold for recovering mind. Moreover, according
to quantum physics all causal effects of consciousness act within
the latitude provided by the uncertainty principle, and this latitude
shrinks to zero in the classical approximation, eliminating the causal
effects of consciousness.

Source : Henry P. Stapp
MINDFUL
UNIVERSE
Quantum Mechanics
and the Participating Observer

[DonQuichotte (OP)]

dlorde :

See my replies to you here above , and do try to read the excerpts i did post today as well on the same subject , please .

You have to try to face the evidence regarding the undeniable causal effects of consciousness on matter , and hence on the brain and body ,instead of sticking to your own outdated superseded and false ...secular religion in science = the mainstream materialist false "scientific world view " .
It's up to you indeed .
Good luck .

[dlorde]

It's very convenient to call any non-orthodox  scientist ,  philosopher ....senile , a fame freak or worse , just because they happen to challenge the materialist false mainstream 'scientific world view " : why not send them to the "goulag " , burn them at the stake ............: self-refuting and self-defeating forms of materialist ...inquisitions .pfff...

Come on Don, you can do better than this; Stapp's hypothesis has less meat on it's bones than Penrose and Hammerof's; he trying to buttress the credibility of his idea with an incorrect and misleading description of the development of quantum theory and its interpretations - don't you want to address those criticisms?

Or are you just intending to continue this repetitive argument from spurious authority and refusal to address the resulting criticism?

[dlorde]

You have to try to face the evidence regarding the undeniable causal effects of consciousness on matter

I'm quite prepared to accept that consciousness may have causal effects on matter - brain processes do that all the time.

So, show me this evidence you speak of.

[DonQuichotte (OP)]

dlorde :

(Prior note :
Normally , when scientists or thinkers  are confronted with the proven falsehood of their a-priori held theories or beliefs , they should either partly or entirely reject the latter , while looking for more or less valid alternatives to them:
But ,you , dlorde , are still in stubborn denial regarding the undeniable falsehood of your beloved or cherished materialist mainstream 'scientific world view " , and hence you just try to refute non-orthodox or non-materialist views or world views ,by looking for their flaws only , instead of learning from them .)

There is a lots of evidence contained in those tons of posted excerpts i have been delivering all along , concerning the undeniable and obvious falsehood of the  mainstream materialist "scientific world view " ,as there is plenty of evidence regarding the fact that consciousness has obvious undeniable causal effects on matter , and hence on body and brain , you do experience every single day of your own life as well , and hence consciousness cannot but have causal effects also at the  micro quantum level : and those are the main facts : instead of addressing the latter , you just deliberately choose to focuss on  minor irrelevant issues .
Way to go , man .
So, try to learn from non-orthodox or non-materialist scientists and philosophers on the subject such as Nagel,Sheldrake, Stapp and the rest , instead of sticking  and listening  to your own materialist false music only .
If you are just interested in trying to refute them ,instead of learning from  them , you will end up just learning nothing , you will end up just closing your mind to non-orthodox and non-materialist views ,or you will end up just trying to confirm your own materialist mainstream false 'scientific world view , via confirmation and other biases, by becoming rock-solid dogmatic in the very face of evidence  .
If you are just interested in refuting them, you will be just looking for their confirmatory inevitable logical and other flaws ,instead of noticing and learning about their positive  ideas , insights , inspirations , innovations ...

It's up to you indeed ,once again .

P.S : When i do provide you with non-orthodox or non-materialist views ,as i have been doing all along , for so long now ,  i do that , despite knowing the a -priori fact that those views do contain some inevitable and inescapable logical and other flaws , but they nevertheless do contain many more valuable facts , insights , innovations as well : so, if you would just try to look for their flaws , you would end up missing the whole idea , you would be missing their valuable insights , ideas , innovations ....

The choice is yours indeed .
Take care ,and good luck to you regarding  your own search and journey .

[dlorde]

...There is a lots of evidence contained in those tons of posted excerpts i have been delivering all along , concerning the undeniable and obvious falsehood of the  mainstream materialist "scientific world view "

Such as? I didn't notice any - please be specific.

If you are just interested in trying to refute them ,instead of learning from  them , you will end up just learning nothing , you will end up just closing your mind to non-orthodox and non-materialist views ,or you will end up just trying to confirm your own materialist mainstream false 'scientific world view , via confirmation and other biases, by becoming rock-solid dogmatic in the very face of evidence .
If you are just interested in refuting them, you will be just looking for their confirmatory inevitable logical and other flaws ,instead of noticing and learning about their positive  ideas , insights , inspirations , innovations ...

I read what you posted; it's just speculation - there's nothing there to refute.

[alancalverd]

Aha! Zeno's paradox and the uncertainty principle rear their irrelevant heads at last! Two sure signs that the author doesn't understand (a) differential calculus and (b) physics.

There's no shame in ignorance, but bombastic bullshit is unforgiveable.

[cheryl j]

Outdated and superceded theories?? William James knowledge of neurology from 1892??? Seriously? I wish i hadnt used up all my bandwidth for this month.

[Ethos_]

There is a lots of evidence contained in those tons of posted excerpts i have been delivering all along , concerning the undeniable and obvious falsehood of the  mainstream materialist "scientific world view " ,as there is plenty of evidence regarding the fact that consciousness has obvious undeniable causal effects on matter , and hence on body and brain

You've got it backwards Don............There is plenty of evidence regarding the fact that the chemistry of the body and brain has undeniable causal effects on consciousness.

You have offered absolutely no evidence to show this relationship to be in  reverse order.

Get a grip Don..........................

[cheryl j]

Merry Christmas!

[dlorde]

Merry Christmas & happy New Year to all!

[Ethos_]

Merry Christmas to you all and wishing everyone a Happy and prosperous New Year!

[DonQuichotte (OP)]

...There is a lots of evidence contained in those tons of posted excerpts i have been delivering all along , concerning the undeniable and obvious falsehood of the  mainstream materialist "scientific world view "

Such as? I didn't notice any - please be specific.

If you are just interested in trying to refute them ,instead of learning from  them , you will end up just learning nothing , you will end up just closing your mind to non-orthodox and non-materialist views ,or you will end up just trying to confirm your own materialist mainstream false 'scientific world view , via confirmation and other biases, by becoming rock-solid dogmatic in the very face of evidence .
If you are just interested in refuting them, you will be just looking for their confirmatory inevitable logical and other flaws ,instead of noticing and learning about their positive  ideas , insights , inspirations , innovations ...

I read what you posted; it's just speculation - there's nothing there to refute.

( He's asking me to be specific haha : what a silly joke ) : what , on earth , do you think Nagel , Sheldrake , and the rest whose works i have been extensively quoting all along , were  doing then , regarding the undeniable faslehood of the materialist mainstream 'scientific world view "  at least ? haha ,amazing: come on , you gotta be kidding me  .

Yeah, right : nothing is true but what materialism and its false 'scientific world view " say it is , even though science is not about the truth, the rest is just 'scientific " heresy , pseudo-science at best , or just speculations or non-sense ,just because the false materialist mainstream dogmatic irrational "scientific world view " secular religion - church  says so  : there has been nothing  but speculation and utter non-sense  in my tons of posted material and excerpts ,from Nagel's book , to those of Stapp and beyond, through Sheldrake's  and the rest , regarding the undeniable falsehood of materialism , and hence regarding that of the materialist mainstream 'scientific world view " ,and regarding the rest , that i cannot but be confirmed by your confirmation and other materialist biases , to the point where you have been insulting peoples' intelligence,and yours in the process,  by calling all that just speculations or non-sense : none can be more guilty of confirmation and other biases than materialists and their followers are ,as this thread  has been showing all along: ignorance is bliss ,as  all  irrational dogmatic orthodox beliefs are,including the materialist false  mainstream 'scientific world view " of course that's been just the materialist false conception of nature , the mainstream materialist false 'scientific world view " that has been  THE biggest unscientific lie ever , in all mankind's history so far at least, and that in the name of no-less than ...science itself , the latter that has been having absolutely nothing to do with , even though science has been materialist for so long now   .

I am a naive optimist , as to have been hoping that you would be able to see the obvious and undeniable falsehood of the materialist mainstream 'scientific world view " , at some stage of this discussion .
I have been  too much of a naive utopian optimist , as to believe in the utopian unrealistic metaphysically- neutral science -myth ,and in its mythical objectivity , despite knowing that they do not exist ,and cannot exist as such , simply because science is just a human activity , just a reflection of the highest and of the lowest which are in all of us  = irrational dogmatic beliefs such as materialism , and hence such as the current "scientific world view " cannot  but be  intrinsically and per -definition exclusive in relation  to any kind of evidence ,except to "those  delivered " by  ...materialism and  by  its false 'scientific world view " thus : science is the main victim of that,as a result  .

There is nothingelse  in the room  than what you , guys ,have been seeing through your materialist narrow-minded handicaped key hole , no wonder,silly me  .

It's pointless to try to bring people irrational dogmatic believers such as yourselves to their senses , the more  when you  have been taking your  own materialist beliefs for granted as science = taking the materialist false conception of nature for granted as the 'scientific world view " = you cannot but dismiss ideas , insights , evidence ,innovations,theories  ...that happen to be singing outside of the materialist mainstream  false  'scientific world view " orchestra , no wonder .


I wanna wish you merry christmas and a happy new year , but then again, as die -hard irrational dogmatic materialists ,it would be non-sense to wish you anything at all for that matter , since you cannot be but  mindless heartless soulless insensitive ....hardware machines robots programmed by software ,without any degree of free will , without any real desires , will, emotions, feelings ; love ,conscience , consciousness , ....as such , according to your own materialist false world view thus .

Talking to just some sort of a pc program , to an intelligent machine or robot , or to just my cat , no offense , might turn out to be  way more interesting than talking to you , guys , as stubborn irrational dogmatic materialists .

But then again , " the gain is worth the loss " , once again, you have no idea .

P.S . : Science will leave you behind , no doubt in my mind about that , when science will be rejecting materialism, and hence  when science will be rejecting  its current false 'scientific world view " in the process  , outdated superseded and false materialism- 'scientific world view "  that  were built on the fundamentally incorrect classical physics , just in order to pretend to be 'scientific " ,for obvious materialist ideologiocal purposes back then and up to this present date and counting .

Science that's all about , or should be all about at least , dispelling dogmas , lies , half-truths ,falsehood ....

Science that's just about temporary approximate conjectural knowledge , not about the truth ,while you have been thinking and behaving as if materialism or its 'scientific world view " meta-paradigm were ...true somehow , were absolutely true = definite,sub-consciously or consciously , implicitly or explicitly thus  :

Why practice science then ,if you think and behave as if you have somehow already reached the "truth " then ?

As a so-called scientist , you are nothing but an insult , an obstacle and a silly joke to the evolutionary nature of science in fact .

"Scientific rational logical " people you are , my ass , excuse my French ...

Enough reasons to leave this "science " forum , untill science will be able to expell its materialist mainstream false 'scientific world view " form science , without mercy , regret , without looking back ....

Otherwise ,science will just remain a source of lies , deceit , myths ,dogmas ....a theater of ideological struggle and materialist supremacy and power , despite the huge achievements of science , and despite the fact that science has been extremely successfull , the latter that has been accomplished only thanks to the effective and unparalleled scientific method that's like no other : materialism or its false 'scientific world view " has been having absolutely nothing to do with all those scientific wonderful achievements , science that should be neither materialist nor otherwise indeed : but fact is : science has been materialist for so long now that it has not been fully deserving to be called science ,untill science will cease to be materialist = ideological dogmatic , then and only then , science will be more scientific and less dogmatic ...hopefully .

Untill then , people should learn how to differentiate science and scientific results , empirical evidence from ...materialist bullshit in science that has been sold to the people as ...science , for so long now, by turning science into a secular irrational dogmatic orthodox exclusive religion through its false materialist mainstream 'scientific world view " ...

What a hopeless predicament  in which science is the main victim  .

What a serious desillusion delusion for all those people who have been thinking and behaving ,as if science has been truely metaphysically neutral or objective , as one of the "best " sources of ...knowledge ....

How depressingly and hopelessly pathetic  this science delusion has been like no other = the false materialist mainstream 'scientific world view " .

Sweet dreams then in this false  materialist  'scientific world view " delusion wonder land of yours ,guys : ignorance is bliss indeed .

Way to go, 'scientific " folks haha: if science could speak ,as it has been actually doing all along , but for few select  people to hear , via science's esoteric core and nature for not every ear to hear , science would be saying , as it has been doing all along : leave me alone ,silly materialist lunatics, enemies of science  : i have been having nothing to do with you all along , even though you have been turning me into a materialist dogmatic religion  : my unparalled scientific world view or evolutionary nature will send you back to the garbage of history,soon enough ,  where you do belong and come from : which means you are in the wrong side of history , in the non-materialist sense at least  .

Only time will tell then indeed ...

................

[DonQuichotte (OP)]

In short : as to finish the above :

Materialist science through its false materialist mainstream "scientific world view " has been THE  biggest and worst lie and crime against science itself, against humanity .....so far at least , for so long now (despite the fact that science has been extremely successfull ,thanks only and exclusively to its own effective and unparalleled method thus ) ,science must  be delivered from ,as science will be in fact = inevitable = just a matter of ...time thus .

I am afraid though, that materialism will be just replaced by yet another false conception of nature ,as Nagel said ,or in other words :

"The human will to believe is inexhaustible " indeed , as Nagel said also ...

Human beliefs are inevitable and unavoidable in science ,since science is just a human activity = the metaphysically -neutral science is a myth , and hence as objectivity in science is : hopeless  unavoidable unsolvable predicament = that's THE intrinsic incurable lethal disease of human science  .....the latter that has been able to cure , defeat ,erase ...many human and other diseases but its core human own .

I wish i could leave this 'science " forum via a positive note , but i cannot , for the above mentioned undeniable reasons at least ...I wish i could thus .....i cannot , otherwise , i would be lying indeed .....or i would be a hypocrit ....as a result .

We don't want the latter , do we ,folks ?

Oh yeah , i do keep forgetting that you have been believeing in a big 'scientific " lie ,you have been taking for granted as science for so long now , a hypocritical  ideological one in the form and shape of the false mainstream materialist 'scientific world view "=THE biggest and worst lie and form of hypocrisy and dishonesty ever ,so, you would not notice the ...difference , if i would happen to be lying or if i would happen to be hypocritical or dishonest about it anyway ....which i am not ,by the way , for your info ...just for the record then, just for the real seeing honest true people watching ,in this land of the blind, land of liars or hypocrits dishonest current false 'scientific world view "  .

How does it feel to have been believing in that 'scientific " hypocritical false and dishonest , not to mention outdated superseded .....lie ever then ?

I don't wanna be in your shoes , guys , never , ever, not in a trillion years to come , not for all the power and glory of this world  : i can't bear such a big lie : THE biggest one ever ,no way ,sorry .

My empathy or sympathy goes to you all in that regard .....no one can or should bear such a big lie , never , ever .......unless deluded ,dishonest hypocritical ,brainwashed indoctrinated or blind ...
...........................

[Ethos_]

I am a naive optimist

I think you nailed the naïve part of that self assessment Don......

I have been  too much of a naive utopian optimist

Surprising, you even repeated that accurate self assessment, astounding!!

As a so-called scientist , you are nothing but an insult , an obstacle and a silly joke to the evolutionary nature of science in fact .

"Scientific rational logical " people you are , my ass , excuse my French ...

Sounds to me like you're the one making all the insulting remarks SIR DON!!

Enough reasons to leave this "science " forum

I hear applause in the background, quite loud I might say.

[cheryl j]

And it's Isaac Newton's birthday too!

[dlorde]

...There is a lots of evidence contained in those tons of posted excerpts i have been delivering all along , concerning the undeniable and obvious falsehood of the  mainstream materialist "scientific world view "

Such as? I didn't notice any - please be specific.

( He's asking me to be specific haha : what a silly joke )

True; you haven't been able to give a specific answer yet. A joke indeed.

: what , on earth , do you think Nagel , Sheldrake , and the rest whose works i have been extensively quoting all along , were  doing then , regarding the undeniable faslehood of the materialist mainstream 'scientific world view "  at least ? haha ,amazing: come on , you gotta be kidding me  .

Ah; now I see the problem - you can't tell the difference between speculation and evidence. No wonder you're so confused [)]

I am a naive optimist...

Can't argue with that [8D]

I wanna wish you merry christmas and a happy new year , but then again, as die -hard irrational dogmatic materialists ,it would be non-sense to wish you anything at all for that matter , since you cannot be but  mindless heartless soulless insensitive ....hardware machines robots programmed by software ,without any degree of free will , without any real desires , will, emotions, feelings ; love ,conscience , consciousness , ....as such , according to your own materialist false world view thus .

So much for seasonal goodwill. These kinds of disturbed feelings of detachment &  alienation from your fellow man might be better expressed to a qualified counsellor or mental health professional. Just sayin'  []

Enough reasons to leave this "science " forum

How many times have you left the forum now? I've not been counting...

Last time you said you'd bring back "some challenging material that will be rocking your materialist sand castles , to the point where its sand grains will be flying in all directions ,thanks to the stormy wind that i will be triggering", such rousing hyperbole - but, surprise, surprise, it didn't happen - did the dog eat your homework Don? Did the 'stormy wind' blow it all away? []

What a hopeless predicament  in which science is the main victim  .

What a serious desillusion delusion for all those people who have been thinking and behaving ,as if science has been truely metaphysically neutral or objective , as one of the "best " sources of ...knowledge ....

How depressingly and hopelessly pathetic  this science delusion has been like no other = the false materialist mainstream 'scientific world view " .

Oops - cheer up, it's Christmas! Guess we'd better scratch the 'optimist' from 'naive optimist'; that leaves plain 'naive'  []

[dlorde]

And it's Isaac Newton's birthday too!

Happy birthday Isaac!  - and if his equal and opposite reaction to Don's diatribe is to spin in his grave, I expect he'll keep spinning unless acted on by some external force...  []

[Ethos_]

Merry Christmas to you also DonQuichotte, we might as well be charitable where charity is sorely needed. Ohhh yes, and Happy birthday Sir Isaac as well.