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Quote from: DonQuichotte on 06/09/2013 21:53:04Thank you for your reply i will read carefully later on , later alligator ...kidding You are an honest consistent guy with yourself ,a guy with integrity ,without self-deceit ,without self-delusions , without magical thinking , or self-illusions : i do respect and salute that in you, as a person , i mean it .Take care Thanks for that, but the reality is that we're all stuck here. None of us want magic in our model, but we have yet to find a way to remove it without becoming nihilists, and nihilism feels highly unsatisfactory - you only have to pinch yourself to provide yourself with a serious objection to it. We feel as if we are substantially more than soulless machines making false assertions about feelings that don't exist. But we shouldn't be surprised that this problem won't break open for us because it has always been the biggest puzzle of them all and has blocked the way of anyone who has tried to tackle it. It is important though that we pin down and understand the fundamental problem before we waste time trying to solve it, and that is what I have attempted to do. When I look at the writings of other people on consciousness though, most of them appear to be completely bonkers, so the odds tell me that it's likely that I am completely bonkers too and am just too stupid to realise it. The most bonkers ones do all have something in common though, and that is that they make the mistake of thinking consciousness can emerge out of complexity without depending on an injection of magic, and that appears to be the mainstream "scientific" position on consciousness. These people need to ask themselves what they are causing to suffer when they torture a biological machine, because if it isn't the atoms or smaller particles, and if it isn't the energy locked up in the system, and if it isn't the fabric of space in from which these other things might be built, then what is it? Sentient geometrical arrangements or sentient pluralities just don't do it for me. Torturing a mere pattern and trying to make it suffer is pretty way out. Even so, it's not beyond possibility that there could be sentiences elsewhere linking in to biological machines and being sentient for them without it happening by magic, as would be the case if this world is virtual and the real us are sitting somewhere on the outside with all our inputs and outputs wired into it, so when you think of it like that it doesn't really matter so much that they're wanting consciousness to emerge out of complexity. Yes, that's a point I have always missed in the past, right up to the moment of writing this. They can make the link to something sentient in any way they like and it doesn't really matter. What matters is how that sentience is supposed to interface with an information system to inform the information system as to its existence (the existence of sentience). That is the key problem which needs to be tackled if any real progress is ever to be made towards understanding consciousness as a real phenomenon. If anyone can crack this single little problem and find a way to turn experience of sensation into knowledge of sensation, the whole thing will open up and we will be able to work out what we really are: we will be able to point to the soul (meaning the sentient "I" in the machine - no other baggage attached beyond being something that can feel).
Thank you for your reply i will read carefully later on , later alligator ...kidding You are an honest consistent guy with yourself ,a guy with integrity ,without self-deceit ,without self-delusions , without magical thinking , or self-illusions : i do respect and salute that in you, as a person , i mean it .Take care
...mainly dlorde sees human consciousness or the mind , feelings , emotions ....the human cultural ,ethical, political, economic ,social ...evolution as kindda independent processes...
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 06/09/2013 21:06:15There is no place for free will, good or evil , emotions , feelings,consciousness ....as such at least whatsoever in the materialistic interpretation of evolution, or rather they are meaningless in the materialistic evolutionary terms You've confused the categories there - that's either carelessness or lack of understanding. Free will and good & evil are cultural constructs, the others evolved for very good reasons (literally life or death reasons)
There is no place for free will, good or evil , emotions , feelings,consciousness ....as such at least whatsoever in the materialistic interpretation of evolution, or rather they are meaningless in the materialistic evolutionary terms
Quoteonly Dawkins and co club are able to provide the right materialistic interpretation of evolution , as explained above, in the sense that there are in fact no such "things" such as free will, feelings , altruism, emotions, ....= just useful pragmatic survival strategies or built-in in our mechanical systems illusions we get fooled by by confusing them with reality , no matter how real they might ever appear to be to us ,once again =David Cooper was explaining just that to you , in another thread as well , better than i can ever do .Yes, and no; perhaps if I make a simple analogy: consider a magician, an illusionist; he develops a range of illusions, 'The Vanishing Rabbit', 'Sawing A Woman In Half', 'Water Into Wine', etc. Now, these all involve a carefully arranged and choreographed set of activities with real objects. But they are not what they seem. There are things happening that give the appearance of the activities described, but none of the described activities real - the rabbit doesn't really vanish, the woman isn't really sawn in half, the water doesn't really turn to wine. Sadly, many people believe they really happen, via paranormal means. When the magician or the people want to discuss them, they use the names of the illusions to identify what they're talking about.
only Dawkins and co club are able to provide the right materialistic interpretation of evolution , as explained above, in the sense that there are in fact no such "things" such as free will, feelings , altruism, emotions, ....= just useful pragmatic survival strategies or built-in in our mechanical systems illusions we get fooled by by confusing them with reality , no matter how real they might ever appear to be to us ,once again =David Cooper was explaining just that to you , in another thread as well , better than i can ever do .
QuoteUseful or pragmatic are not always synonymous of the truth thoughAre they ever? Ah, but what is truth?
Useful or pragmatic are not always synonymous of the truth though
QuoteQuoteQuoteNo, sorry , those were just rational justifications for my potential behavior you were trying to developYes, that's how discussions on science forums go; you're expected to provide rational justifications for your argument or position.What i meant was : you were just using some romantic magical thinking...OK, so you said 'rational justification' when you meant 'romantic magical thinking'; it's probably nothing to worry about, everyone has senior moments now and then.
QuoteQuoteNo, sorry , those were just rational justifications for my potential behavior you were trying to developYes, that's how discussions on science forums go; you're expected to provide rational justifications for your argument or position.What i meant was : you were just using some romantic magical thinking...
QuoteNo, sorry , those were just rational justifications for my potential behavior you were trying to developYes, that's how discussions on science forums go; you're expected to provide rational justifications for your argument or position.
No, sorry , those were just rational justifications for my potential behavior you were trying to develop
QuoteQuoteArguments from incredulity, anecdotes, unsupported assertions, 'no true Scotsman (materialist)' fallacies, special pleading, appeals to what is 'beyond logic, rationality, and science', etc., may be entertaining, but are insubstantial. No, it's exactly the other way around : your magical romantic thinking contradicts the materialistic mechanical reductionistic interpretation of evolutionYou still seem confused - as a response, that's not 'exactly the other way round', it's a complete non-sequitur.
QuoteArguments from incredulity, anecdotes, unsupported assertions, 'no true Scotsman (materialist)' fallacies, special pleading, appeals to what is 'beyond logic, rationality, and science', etc., may be entertaining, but are insubstantial. No, it's exactly the other way around : your magical romantic thinking contradicts the materialistic mechanical reductionistic interpretation of evolution
Arguments from incredulity, anecdotes, unsupported assertions, 'no true Scotsman (materialist)' fallacies, special pleading, appeals to what is 'beyond logic, rationality, and science', etc., may be entertaining, but are insubstantial.
QuoteNo, you should just see them as useful pragmatic survival strategies illusions ,as they actually are in fact , according to the materialistic interpretation of evolution ,once again , David Cooper tried to explain to you .I can see them however I wish; but as I said, I think it's a valid viewpoint (are you having trouble following these threads?), I just like to acknowledge the subjective experience.
No, you should just see them as useful pragmatic survival strategies illusions ,as they actually are in fact , according to the materialistic interpretation of evolution ,once again , David Cooper tried to explain to you .
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 08/09/2013 20:00:07...mainly dlorde sees human consciousness or the mind , feelings , emotions ....the human cultural ,ethical, political, economic ,social ...evolution as kindda independent processes...What on Earth are you on about now?
You do not realise the fact that you are the one who's trying to make consciousness rise from our mechanical biological process via that emergence magical trick, like an illusionist who apparently makes a rabbit appear from nowwhere .
... you seem to have succeeded indeed in making consciousness, feelings , free will, good and evil, emotions, ethics , cultures, societies, politics, economics , religions or spirituality ...rise from our so-called exclusively mechanical biological systems via the natural selection of evolution, via some emergence magical tricks or magical thinking only you ,Dawkins and co , as bright illusionists , can accomplish
How can even science itself ,or any other form of human knowledge for that matter , to mention just that , how can they ever rise from those evolutionary exclusively mechanical processes of ours ?Only some illusionists here such as our dlorde can explain just that , i see :Our dlorde here mainly seems to have surpassed even that big illusionist : David Copperfield .
Quote from: alancalverd on 08/09/2013 00:23:17So you would define a cow as exhibiting or experiencing bovine phenomena, and not being an uncow. Not a particularly useful contribution to a discussion on the evolution or ecological function of a cow.No. you're again missing out the key bit about it mooing.
So you would define a cow as exhibiting or experiencing bovine phenomena, and not being an uncow. Not a particularly useful contribution to a discussion on the evolution or ecological function of a cow.
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 08/09/2013 20:42:59... you seem to have succeeded indeed in making consciousness, feelings , free will, good and evil, emotions, ethics , cultures, societies, politics, economics , religions or spirituality ...rise from our so-called exclusively mechanical biological systems via the natural selection of evolution, via some emergence magical tricks or magical thinking only you ,Dawkins and co , as bright illusionists , can accomplishIf I seem to have succeeded, what is the problem?
That was sacrastic ironic meant though , no offense .
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 01/09/2013 17:46:15Many scientific research proved the fact that consciousness could not or cannot be produced by the brain...
Many scientific research proved the fact that consciousness could not or cannot be produced by the brain...
... it seems to me that if consciousness were truly immaterial, it would not be so strongly altered by physical factors like anesthetics and other drugs, sleep or lack of it, diseases like Alzheimer's, brain trauma, oxygen deprivation, genetic defects, etc.
Bombastic talk again : did you ever meet a dog , cat , chimp ....who is or rather which is self-aware ? in the sense that it is aware of its existence , of itself ? that it is aware of its inner life or at least has one ? A dog might have dreams ,for example ,but when even humans dream (i am not talking here about day dreaming of humans at least ) , they are unconscious , let alone that they would be self-aware while sleeping and dreaming at least .The fact that some chimps might "recognize" themselves in the mirror , apparently it seems , or maybe that's just our human interpretation of their behavior in front of the mirror, does not prove conclusively that they might have or experience some degree of self-awarness, i guess, i do not know for sure thus either, but i do not think any non-human living organism for that matter is self-aware , simply because any degree of self-awarness implies some corresponding degree of intellectual process at least .Animals are "conscious" (a reduced form of consciousness , compared to that extended one of man = there is no comparison between the 2 in fact ) : they experience feel pain, experience feel hunger , anger , sadness, joy ....but animals or any other non-human living organism can never be self-aware in the above mentioned sense at least .our consciousness, ...
A hall mark of consciousness is not just being self aware, but knowing that others are also aware, and being able to imagine or see something from the perspective of another conscious being. That may not be calculus or poetry, but it is thinking about thinking or awareness of awareness, which is rather sophisticated.... Lying, too is advanced thinking.
Look, i do agree with most of what you were saying , form the materialistic point of view at least ,so :Help me out here ,in order to make dlorde and alcanverd see the light haha :
What you cannot understand is how consciousness or the mind ( I see the human mind or consciousness as a whole process which contains intelligence , emotions, feelings , imagination ...) can rise from those biological mechanical processes ? or as Dawkins put it , we can "revolt against the selfish mechanical tyranny of our genes " by deliberately modifying our selfish behavior via our free will : how, on earth, are we supposed to do just that , if we are just machines = we cannot have a free will = free will is an illusion ,according to this mechanical deterministic materialistic view of the universe , man, life , nature ...
"...consciousness, feelings , free will, good and evil, emotions, ethics , cultures, societies, politics, economics , religions or spirituality..."
How can even science itself ,or any other form of human knowledge for that matter , to mention just that , how can they ever rise from those evolutionary exclusively mechanical processes of ours ?