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If nonsentient life evolved before sentient life, and sentience is the root of wanting more, how did nonsentient life come to populate the planet? Wouldn't it have been satisfied with the puddle in which it first evolved?
In answer to the last point made by dlorde; who says that "the natural processes of Evolution are undirected."?
Regardless of any spiritual connoctations the Universe is, and always has been, developing more and more complex products.
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 20/09/2013 16:56:40Have you ever done some meditation ,Yoga , or some other spiritual exercises ? Do not reduce yourself to just ..science .I meditate, and spent some years practicing Yang Family Tajiquan (T'ai Chi). If physical & mental exercise, relaxation, mood elevation, and emotional balancing are spiritual, then they're spiritual exercises. As you might expect, I take the mystical, paranormal side of it with a pinch of salt (e.g. I see the popular concept of 'chi' as the understandable result of an holistic rather than reductionist approach to physical & mental performance, coupled with a lack of detailed knowledge of human biology, especially physiology - with the more absurd paranormal aspects driven by fakes & frauds and their coteries of hangers-on).
Have you ever done some meditation ,Yoga , or some other spiritual exercises ? Do not reduce yourself to just ..science .
In relation to the last post from DonQuihotte, consciousness is a data-processing operation that takes place in the brain. However, the mind of man is made up of many elements - consciousness, instinct, the unconscious and the previously mentioned Self for example - there may be others. Whether they all have their basis in physics or not is a question of Faith.
Ok, do you have other hypotheses concerning consciousness, other than that materialistic magical "emergence " trick then ?
And how do you explain what you experience during meditation ...?
Did it ever occur to you that human consciousness might exist and function outside of the laws of physics ?Otherwise , just tell me what consciousness is ,and where is it to be "found or localised " in man ?
If consciousness was the product of the "blind " evolution ,if the intellect is the product of the "blind " evolution ,both as some sort of pragmatic survival strategies, then it's pretty logical to question all our sense of reality , knowledge , including the scientific knowledge , including the scientific knowledge regarding evolution itself = a paradox = try to explain this paradox to me then ... [/b]
To clarify, I see Evolution as a process that has been going on for the entire life of the universe; the "basic law" of Creation, if you like. The first "phase" was a foundation phase (from our perspective) where habitats eventually evolved, the second phase was Life, products that can change their environment to suit their needs, and the third phase is sentience.
I'm sorry I misquoted you dlorde, it was careless and rude of me.
While I understand the argument regarding the bounds of complexity I do not understand why this means that complexity will increase. I agree that there is more "room" for complexity to increase but why must it? What does the universe gain from increasing complexity?
Anyway, if sentience is defined as being able to sense something in the outside world and react to it in a way that increases survival, that was there from the get go.
Quote from: dlorde on 20/09/2013 18:12:09Quote from: DonQuichotte on 20/09/2013 16:56:40Have you ever done some meditation ,Yoga , or some other spiritual exercises ? Do not reduce yourself to just ..science .I meditate, and spent some years practicing Yang Family Tajiquan (T'ai Chi). If physical & mental exercise, relaxation, mood elevation, and emotional balancing are spiritual, then they're spiritual exercises. As you might expect, I take the mystical, paranormal side of it with a pinch of salt (e.g. I see the popular concept of 'chi' as the understandable result of an holistic rather than reductionist approach to physical & mental performance, coupled with a lack of detailed knowledge of human biology, especially physiology - with the more absurd paranormal aspects driven by fakes & frauds and their coteries of hangers-on).Ok, do you have other hypotheses concerning consciousness, other than that materialistic magical "emergence " trick then ?And how do you explain what you experience during meditation ...?
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 20/09/2013 21:09:20Quote from: dlorde on 20/09/2013 18:12:09Quote from: DonQuichotte on 20/09/2013 16:56:40Have you ever done some meditation ,Yoga , or some other spiritual exercises ? Do not reduce yourself to just ..science .I meditate, and spent some years practicing Yang Family Tajiquan (T'ai Chi). If physical & mental exercise, relaxation, mood elevation, and emotional balancing are spiritual, then they're spiritual exercises. As you might expect, I take the mystical, paranormal side of it with a pinch of salt (e.g. I see the popular concept of 'chi' as the understandable result of an holistic rather than reductionist approach to physical & mental performance, coupled with a lack of detailed knowledge of human biology, especially physiology - with the more absurd paranormal aspects driven by fakes & frauds and their coteries of hangers-on).Ok, do you have other hypotheses concerning consciousness, other than that materialistic magical "emergence " trick then ?And how do you explain what you experience during meditation ...?There are tons of studies about what goes on in the brain during meditation if you are really interested. They are hooking up Buddhists monks all the time to imaging instruments. The Dalai Lama, incidentally doesn't see any conflict between his spiritual practice and science, and says “In the Buddhist investigation of reality we traditionally employ four principles of reasoning: dependence, function, nature and evidence. Both approaches [science and Buddhism] seem to work in parallel." He has invited many physicists and neuroscientists to speak at his conferences. “Bringing science to Buddhist monks does not mean bending the belief system,” he insists, “they are parallel, there is no attempt to harmonize the two."
A windmill might be useful right now.I'm OK, you're OK. Great book. Read it many times. It occurred to me:"Now there's an interesting thing. Values are learned initially though “instinct” and instinct in non-sentient creatures is something that helps to keep them alive and successful by controlling their behaviour – don't eat the grass by the T-Rex even if you are hungry and it looks good; eat other grass. Sentience extends this effect to include being “good” as well – alive, successful and good. Don't take the wallet that the customer before you just left on the counter even if you are pretty skint and he looks like he can afford it; it's not right. A £20 note blowing down the street is another matter, though also often difficult. Could it be that instinct is part of the Self, that it lies very deeply rooted in the value system? Or could it be that instinct is the original, insentient version of conscience itself? This would indicate that the leap from insentience to sentience happened when this, very personal, reservoir of self-esteem got added to the Self, when the judgements of the conscience began to have a lasting effect on our “feel good” factor; guilt is cumulative and people who habitually deny their conscience are unhappy people. The doctors tell us that they are suffering from low self-esteem. If one thinks about this then would it not have been a brilliant evolutionary step in mental development? It would necessitate the development of memory so that one could look back at behaviour that didn't make them “feel good”. Furthermore better analytical ability, intelligence, would need to develop in order to be able to “rationalise” why one chose behaviour that didn't make one “feel good” or, conversely, why one wasn't going to take the wallet.Could Sentience be the natural bye-product of the introduction of Self-Esteem into our innermost characters, our Selfs?"In other words, the whole development of sentience and intelligence was a natural, Darwinian, progression following the development of the psychological trait we call self-esteem, a quantity of every adult mind. Consciousness remains a purely biological function based on electrical impulses in the brain.The proof you seek is on the trauma ward of every hospital. There are hundreds of brain damaged people who show reduced intelligence, awareness or any other measure of "consciousness". Do you mean consciousness or do you mean the mind?