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See how muslims were the first ever to "invent " and practice the scientific method, thanks to that Qur'anic epistemology .
QuoteSee how muslims were the first ever to "invent " and practice the scientific method, thanks to that Qur'anic epistemology .Apart from everyone else, that is.
Those muslims did much much more , including giving birth to science itself ... i am talking here mainly about the fact that science owes its very existence to muslims indeed .
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 23/09/2013 19:16:31Quote from: Skyli on 22/09/2013 22:42:55We should thus stop seeing religion, or Islam in this case , and science as concurrents or as opposite opponents .*** Exactly my point!You appear to be attacking science because it is not religious enough. No, i was just attacking that untrue ideological reductionism as a secular religion in science : see the difference ? QuoteQuote from: Skyli on 22/09/2013 22:42:55it is a false conception of nature and the universeThat cannot be. Science, by its very nature, is only a tool to "investigate" and "explain" the nature of the universe. This is like saying that a microscope is a conception of the nature of micro-biology.
Quote from: Skyli on 22/09/2013 22:42:55We should thus stop seeing religion, or Islam in this case , and science as concurrents or as opposite opponents .*** Exactly my point!You appear to be attacking science because it is not religious enough.
We should thus stop seeing religion, or Islam in this case , and science as concurrents or as opposite opponents .
Quote from: Skyli on 22/09/2013 22:42:55it is a false conception of nature and the universeThat cannot be. Science, by its very nature, is only a tool to "investigate" and "explain" the nature of the universe. This is like saying that a microscope is a conception of the nature of micro-biology.
it is a false conception of nature and the universe
Quote from: Skyli on 22/09/2013 22:42:55we cannot know everything there is to know out there via our human limited faculties Nobody on this forum would disagree with you there but, as you said, we have more to come. I am sure that this universe - Gods universe - hasn't finished with us yet - one day we may not even be able to call ourselves human by any yardstick we use today. Until then, and beyond, I hope with all my heart, that science continues on its mission, using whatever tools best fit the job, and tries to explain absolutely everything WITHOUT reference to God; better still, on the fundamental assumption that there is no God - it's ALL up to us. This is the best way to learn. Whether by chemistry or divine will we have been given the drive to classify and the tools with which to do it. My guess is, either way, that means that we are meant to use them.
we cannot know everything there is to know out there via our human limited faculties
Gennlemen, if this works then thank you indeed!
Quote from: cheryl j on 23/09/2013 22:07:51Quote from: DonQuichotte on 23/09/2013 20:05:42... i developed a sort of a sophisticated radar or 6th sense , so to speak, that make me able to detect the real thing from fraud or illusions,delusions ..Ouch - there goes another irony meter...Thanks for that cheryl, I missed it first time round. I wonder how he can tell whether his 'sort of a sophisticated radar or 6th sense' is itself the 'real thing' or an illusion or delusion... As Feynman said, "The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool".
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 23/09/2013 20:05:42... i developed a sort of a sophisticated radar or 6th sense , so to speak, that make me able to detect the real thing from fraud or illusions,delusions ..
... i developed a sort of a sophisticated radar or 6th sense , so to speak, that make me able to detect the real thing from fraud or illusions,delusions ..
Quote from: alancalverd on 24/09/2013 17:27:06QuoteSee how muslims were the first ever to "invent " and practice the scientific method, thanks to that Qur'anic epistemology .Apart from everyone else, that is.Yeah. We covered that at length in What's the real origin of the scientific method?, where it turned out the title was less a question, more a rhetorical preface to a diatribe on the Islamic contribution. For example:Quote from: DonQuichotte on 08/08/2013 00:28:44Those muslims did much much more , including giving birth to science itself ... i am talking here mainly about the fact that science owes its very existence to muslims indeed .and so-on.
Quote from: dlorde on 23/09/2013 22:34:41Quote from: cheryl j on 23/09/2013 22:07:51Quote from: DonQuichotte on 23/09/2013 20:05:42... i developed a sort of a sophisticated radar or 6th sense , so to speak, that make me able to detect the real thing from fraud or illusions,delusions ..Ouch - there goes another irony meter... I wonder how he can tell whether his 'sort of a sophisticated radar or 6th sense' is itself the 'real thing' or an illusion or delusion...I did already say that that alleged "radar " haha was not really realiable, as my own belief warns me about by the way .
Quote from: cheryl j on 23/09/2013 22:07:51Quote from: DonQuichotte on 23/09/2013 20:05:42... i developed a sort of a sophisticated radar or 6th sense , so to speak, that make me able to detect the real thing from fraud or illusions,delusions ..Ouch - there goes another irony meter... I wonder how he can tell whether his 'sort of a sophisticated radar or 6th sense' is itself the 'real thing' or an illusion or delusion...
Why don't you try to focuss on the real issues i was bringing up, instead of this unnuanced none-sense of yours ?
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 23/09/2013 20:05:42There gotta be some more fundamental underlying principles , more fundamental than those laws of physics , otherwise , neither the mainstream reductionist misinterpretation of evolution , nor the mainstream reductionist misinterpretation of the origin of life , to mention just that , can explain the emergence of life from dead or inanimate inorganic matter , or can explain consciousness ...Well, when you discover them and can identify them, and verify to others that they exist, let me know. So far this is all I could find in the past 12 pages of posts that you have offered as an alternative a means to understanding consciousness, and I quote:"The real awareness or self awareness , the real consciousness or self-consciousness do exist only at the levels of some adult humans , and they can be improved as well = extended levels of awareness , self-awareness, consciousness, self-consciousness ...they can be extended via meditation , personal experiences , ....via prayers ...via hard work ...via certain world views ...Action triggered by or in fact as equal to the human mind put in motion via Higgins' field that maybe , just maybe gets in its turn made in motion by a higher power that might hold everything existing together for that matter, our minds that depend on or tend to long for unity with that fundamental root capacity of that higher power or root Self , that action might be the core " building block element " of the "structure " of the universe , who knows ?(Heart's intelligence as the highest form of intelligence or intellect , heart as no emotions feelings , or biological organ , once again. Heart as intuition or intuitive insights : informed experienced developed extended intuition, not the ordinary intuition that 's not really reliable though )...we can try to approach consciousness via trying to extend our levels of consciousness via personal experiences shaped by certain world views, by the personal experiences of others on the subject , by ancient wisdoms on the subject..I think that human consciousness does not only hold THE key to unveiling major mysteries in this universe , but also that the most important and next level of human evolution at the level of consciousness is yet to be undertaken by humanity as a whole , while grasping its incredible implications for all humanity...But, it takes hard work, life experiences, it takes flirting with death itself and looking it deep in the eye ....it takes blood sweat and tears , joy , rise and fall ,setbacks and breakthroughs ....to just be able to develop that 6th sense that makes one sharp alert and awake sober lucid enough to know , not just believe in, there are whole unimaginable dimentions and levels of reality out there our powerful developed mind can make us able to approach somehow , to some degree at least .humans can be trained to develop those consciousness powers or skils in themselves, by developing their 'contacts " with their consciousness via some means High levels of consciousness can also be experienced only under certain meditation and other spiritual circumstances where the body or the material world cease to "exist " or cease to be perceived as such for the given person under those meditation or under other spiritual states ,due to that extremely targeted attention or focuss of the given person at the level of the pure consciousnessCritical thinking might be a better word to approach what people claim to experience , but then again, critical thinking fails short at the level of "pure " consciousness "beyond thought "This might seem to you as just semantics , but i see no better way to put it to you , since "pure 'consciousness via meditation and via other spiritual means is , per definition, uncommunicable = words fail short to describe it .The only way to figure out all that for yourself in that regard is by trying to experience those states of consciousness yourself via meditation or via other spiritual means : science or critical thinking alone cannot help you in that regard ,since "pure " consciousness is beyond thought , science .But then again, you would say : there is nothing more tricky deceptive and elusive than spirituality ,i would say : that's the beauty of it : we gotta try to figure it out for ourselves = an endless restless dynamic journey = a journey far more exciting and challenging difficult ..than science can ever be ,even thou science can help us somehow on that spiritual path we gotta take as well I see this natural reality as just a veil that deprives us from seeing the underlying true real reality ,the latter we can only See above : the only way to figure that out for yourself is by trying to experience those states of consciousnsess, via meditation and via other spiritual means = that's beyond the territory of conventional science and thought . try to approach via spirituality,once again Only real true mystics can experience the relatively full scale of human consciousness or pure consciousness and beyondBut , art , meditation, spirituality , creative work ....music ....love...do make me get in touch , sometimes , with incredible states of consciousness , awareness, self-awareness ...that are , per definition, uncommunicable as the mystics say , science can never be able to give me .Words cannot describe those states of consciousness i do experience sometimes , and i can tell you with relative confidence= i am not really sure , who can be in that context ?, that i developed a sort of a sophisticated radar or 6th sense , so to speak, that make me able to detect the real thing from fraud or illusions,delusions ..Did it ever occur to you that human consciousness might exist and function outside of the laws of physics ?"End Quote
There gotta be some more fundamental underlying principles , more fundamental than those laws of physics , otherwise , neither the mainstream reductionist misinterpretation of evolution , nor the mainstream reductionist misinterpretation of the origin of life , to mention just that , can explain the emergence of life from dead or inanimate inorganic matter , or can explain consciousness ...
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 24/09/2013 19:21:27Quote from: dlorde on 23/09/2013 22:34:41Quote from: cheryl j on 23/09/2013 22:07:51Quote from: DonQuichotte on 23/09/2013 20:05:42... i developed a sort of a sophisticated radar or 6th sense , so to speak, that make me able to detect the real thing from fraud or illusions,delusions ..Ouch - there goes another irony meter... I wonder how he can tell whether his 'sort of a sophisticated radar or 6th sense' is itself the 'real thing' or an illusion or delusion...I did already say that that alleged "radar " haha was not really realiable, as my own belief warns me about by the way .Oh boy... your own belief warns you when the 'sophisticated radar or 6th sense' that allows you to tell what's reliable, is unreliable?
QuoteWhy don't you try to focuss on the real issues i was bringing up, instead of this unnuanced none-sense of yours ?If you could post them clearly and concisely instead of camouflaging them in flannel and distractions, they might be easier to focus on. Is there some particular 'real' issue you'd like me to look at?
QuoteI see dlorde saying to you that God is irrelevant for science , it is not the case...Care to explain how God is relevant to science?
I see dlorde saying to you that God is irrelevant for science , it is not the case...
Stop being a jerk, be serious : and do not try to derail the discussion you obvioulsly cannot handle .I meant that my own belief warns me against the relative unreliability of that "radar ". so to speak .
Quote... Is there some particular 'real' issue you'd like me to look at?What ? Do you want me to draw you a picture ? I think i was clear enough .
... Is there some particular 'real' issue you'd like me to look at?
If you cannot deliver yourself from those reductionist indoctrinations and brainwash you obviously do confuse with science proper , that's not my problem , but yours to deal with ,otherwise just go see a ..shrink .
QuoteQuoteI see dlorde saying to you that God is irrelevant for science , it is not the case...Care to explain how God is relevant to science?Did i say that God is to science ?
... i am not even gonna respond to the rest of your silly denials,misinterpretations of my views , lack of understanding what people tell you .. ...I will ignore you from now on , simply because you are not only not serious , but you are also a guy who are not willing to consider non-reductionist views ...so, why should i bother wasting my time on you ? I will not , from now on :
No, i was just attacking that untrue ideological reductionism as a secular religion in science : see the difference ? ..I am talking , once again, about reductionism as an ideology in science,not about science proper : can't you see the difference ?
God is not the field of science : science is not interested in God ,so to speak, science can thus neither pretend to prove nor disprove the existence of God : why bring God up in this discussion then , discussion concerning reductionism in science ?.
For everyone else's benefit, why don't you explain the methods by which science will make progress when all reductionist approaches have been expunged?
dlorde, these Doctors are interested in the dualism or humanism, what creates consciousness question:
Well, David Cooper was correct about one thing. Trolls are impossible and it is probably best to ignore them.
Having something that tells you when the something that tells you when something is unreliable, is unreliable, is truly Kafkaesque
Quote from: dlorde on 24/09/2013 21:08:19 Having something that tells you when the something that tells you when something is unreliable, is unreliable, is truly Kafkaesque But it happens in real life. "Flight 401" is an infamous instance. Approaching their destination, the crew lowered the undercarriage but one of the "three greens" (lamps signifying "undercarriage locked") didn't appear. So they faffed around trying to change the bulb, peer out of the window at the wheels, and generally do everything except fly the plane, which flew itself into the Everglades and killed 101 people.