[DonQuichotte (OP)]

Holograms and the Implicate Order


Holograms and the implicate order:
In a famous series of investigations carried out during brain surgery on conscious patients, Wilder
Penfield and his colleagues tested the effects of mild electrical stimulation of various regions of the
cerebral cortex. As the electrode touched parts of the motor cortex, limbs moved. Electrically
stimulating the auditory or visual cortex evoked auditory or visual hallucinations like buzzing noises
or flashes of light. Stimulation of the secondary visual cortex gave hallucinations of flowers, for
example, or animals, or familiar people. When some regions of the temporal cortex were stimulated,
some patients recalled dream-like memories, for example of a concert or a telephone conversation.22
Penfield initially assumed that the electrical evocation of memories meant that they were stored in
the stimulated tissue, which he named the “memory cortex.” On further consideration, he changed his
mind: “This was a mistake … The record is not in the cortex.”23 Like Lashley and Pribram, he gave up
the idea of localized memory traces in favor of the theory that they were widely distributed in other
parts of the brain.
The most popular analogy for distributed memory storage is holography, a form of lens-less
photography in which interference patterns are stored as holograms, from which the original image
can be reconstructed in three dimensions. If part of the hologram is destroyed, the whole image can
still be reconstructed from the remaining parts, although in lower definition. The whole is present in
each part. This may sound mysterious, but the basic principle is simple and familiar. As you look
around you now, your eyes are sampling light from all the parts of the scene in front of you. The light
absorbed by your eyes is only a small part of the available light, and yet you can see the whole scene.
If you move a few feet, you can still see everything, the whole scene is present there too, although you
are now sampling the light waves in a different place. In a similar way, the whole is enfolded into each
part of a hologram. This is not true of an ordinary photograph: if you tear off half the photo, you have
lost half the image. If you tear off half a hologram, the whole image can still be re-created.
But what if the holographic wave patterns are not stored in the brain at all? Pribram later came to
this conclusion, and thought of the brain as a “waveform analyzer” rather than a storage system,
comparing it to a radio receiver that picked up waveforms from the “implicate order,” rendering them
explicate.24 This aspect of his thinking was influenced by the quantum physicist David Bohm, who
suggested that the entire universe is holographic, in the sense that wholeness is enfolded into every
part.25
According to Bohm, the observable or manifest world is the explicate or unfolded order, which
emerges from the implicate or enfolded order.26 Bohm thought that the implicate order contains a
kind of memory. What happens in one place is “introjected” or “injected” into the implicate order,
which is potentially present everywhere; thereafter when the implicate order unfolds into the explicate
order, this memory affects what happens, giving the process very similar properties to morphic
resonance. In Bohm’s words, each moment will “contain a projection of the re-injection of the
previous moments, which is a kind of memory; so that would result in a general replication of past
forms.”27
Maybe morphic resonance will one day be included in an enlarged version of quantum theory, as
Bohm suggested. No one yet knows. The question “How can morphic resonance be explained?” is
open. In the context of a debate about the reality of memory traces, does morphic resonance—or
memory in the implicate order—fit the facts better than the trace theory?

[DonQuichotte (OP)]

Resonance Across Time:


Resonance across time:
The trace theory says that memories are stored materially in brains, for example as chemicals in
synapses. The alternative is the resonance theory: memories are transferred by resonance from similar
patterns of activity in the past. We tune in to ourselves in the past; we do not carry our memories
around inside our heads.
The resonance of memory is part of a much wider hypothesis. The hypothesis of morphic resonance
proposes a resonance across space and time of patterns of vibratory activity in all self-organizing
systems.28 Morphic resonance underlies habits of crystallization and protein folding (see Chapter 3).
It also underlies the inheritance of morphogenetic fields and of patterns of instinctive behavior (see
Chapter 6). It plays an essential role in the transfer of learning, as discussed below. Morphic
resonance provides a new way of looking at memories. There are at least five kinds of memory:
habituation, sensitization, behavioral memory, recognition and recalling.

[DonQuichotte (OP)]

Habituation and Sensitization:



Habituation and sensitization:
Habituation means getting used to things. If you hear a new sound, or smell a new smell, you may pay
attention to it to start with, but if it makes no difference, you soon cease to notice it. You don’t notice
the pressure of your clothes on your body most of the time, or the pressure of your bottom on the seat
on which you are sitting, or the sounds of a clock ticking, or the many other background noises around
you.
Habituation is one of the most fundamental kinds of memory and underlies all our responses to our
environment. Generally speaking, we do not notice what stays the same; we notice changes or
differences. All our senses work on this principle. If you are gazing over a landscape, anything that
moves immediately catches your eye. If there is a change in the background noise, you notice it. Our
entire culture works on the same principle, which is why gossip and newspapers rarely concern
themselves with things that stay the same. They are about changes or differences.
Other animals likewise become accustomed to their environments. They generally react to
something new because they are not used to it, often showing alarm or avoidance. This kind of
response even occurs in single-celled animals like Stentor raesilii, which lives in marshy pools. Each
Stentor is a trumpet-shaped cell covered with rows of fine, beating hairs called cilia. The activity of
the cilia sets up currents around the cell, carrying suspended particles to the mouth, which is at the
bottom of a tiny vortex (Figure 7.1). These cells are attached at their base by a “foot,” and the lower
part of the cell is surrounded by a mucus-like tube. If the surface to which it is attached is slightly
jolted, Stentor rapidly contracts into its tube. If nothing happens, after about half a minute it extends
again and the cilia resume their activity. If the same stimulus is repeated, it does not contract but
continues its normal activities. This is not a result of fatigue because the cell responds to a new
stimulus, such as being touched, by contracting again.29
FIGURE 7.1A: The single-celled organism Stentor raesilii, showing the currents of water around it
caused by the beating of its cilia. In response to an unfamiliar stimulus it rapidly contracts into its
tube (B). (After Jennings, 1906)
The cell membranes of Stentor have an electrical charge across them, just like nerve cells. When they
are stimulated, an action potential sweeps over the surface of the cell, very similar to a nerve impulse,
and this leads to the cell contracting.30 As it becomes habituated, the receptors on the cell’s membrane
become less sensitive to mechanical stimulation, and the action potential is not triggered.31 Since
Stentor is a single cell, its memory cannot be explained in terms of changes in nerve endings, or
synapses, because it has none.
Habituation implies a kind of memory that enables harmless and irrelevant stimuli to be recognized
when they recur. Morphic resonance suggests a straightforward explanation. The organism is in
resonance with its own past patterns of activity, including its return to normal following its
withdrawal response to a harmless stimulus. When the stimulus is repeated, the organism resonates
with its previous pattern of response, including the return to normal activity. It returns to normal
activity sooner, and responds less and less, until the harmless stimuli are ignored. It habituates
through self-resonance. A new stimulus stands out precisely because it is new and unfamiliar.
Habituation occurs in all animals, large and small, with and without nervous systems. The effects of
habituation have been studied in detail in the giant marine slug Aplysia, which grows more than a foot
long. Its nervous system is relatively simple, and is similar in different individuals. Normally the
slug’s gill is extended, but if the slug is touched, the gill is withdrawn. This reflex soon ceases if
harmless stimuli are repeated; the slugs habituate, just like Stentor. Eric Kandel and his group showed
that only four motor nerve cells are responsible for the gill withdrawal response. As habituation
occurs, the sensory nerve cells cease to excite the motor cells because they release fewer and fewer
packets of chemical transmitter at the synapses with the motor cells. But the fact that the synapses
function differently as a result of habituation does not prove that the memory is stored chemically in
the synapses. The entire system may habituate as a result of self-resonance, as in Stentor. Selfresonance
may underlie habituation in animals at all levels of complexity, including ourselves.
Sensitization is the opposite of habituation: animals become more responsive to stimuli that have a
harmful effect. Again, even single-celled animals like Stentor exhibit this kind of behavior. If a
stream of noxious particles is directed at Stentor, it contracts into its tube. The next time it is exposed
to the same particles it contracts more rapidly, and after several exposures, it goes on contracting
inside its tube until its foot is detached; it swims away until it finds a more peaceful place to settle
down, where it builds a new tube and resumes its normal life. Aplysia shows a similar kind of
sensitization, and Kandel and his group have described several changes that occur in the nerve cells as
this happens. Whereas habituation results in less neurotransmitter being released by sensory neurons
in their synapses with motor neurons, sensitization results in more being released.32
Again, there is no need to suppose that the memory that underlies sensitization is stored in the form
of chemical changes inside the cells. Like habituation, sensitization fits well with a self-resonance
model. When a stimulus that proved harmful in the past occurs, the organism resonates with itself,
responding to the same stimulus, resulting in a greater response. In addition, sensitization can reach a
threshold where the organism does something different. Stentor swims away.33 Aplysia releases toxic
ink containing hydrogen peroxide.34

[DonQuichotte (OP)]

Resonant Learning:


Resonant learning:
Many animals learn patterns of behavior from other members of their group through imitation. For
example, some species of bird, like blackbirds, learn parts of songs by listening to the songs of nearby
adults. This is a kind of cultural inheritance.
Cultural inheritance reaches its highest development in humanity where all human beings learn a
great variety of patterns of behavior, including the use of language, as well as many physical and
mental skills, like doing arithmetic, playing the flute or knitting. From the point of view of morphic
resonance, the transfer of these skills is a kind of resonance process.
In the 1980s, neuroscientists discovered that when animals watched other animals carrying out a
particular action, changes in the motor part of their brains mirrored those in the brains of the animals
they were watching. These responses are often described in terms of “mirror neurons”: the brain
activity mirrors that of the animal being watched, and involves the same sorts of changes that take
place in carrying out the action itself. But the term mirror neuron is misleading if it suggests that
special kinds of nerves are required for this activity. Instead, it is better thought of as a kind of
resonance. In fact, Vittorio Gallese, one of the discoverers of mirror neurons, refers to the imitation of
movements or actions by another individual as “resonance behavior.”35
Resonance behavior is a new phrase, but the phenomenon itself is not a new discovery. The entire
pornography industry depends on it. Watching other people engaged in sexual activity stimulates
erotic arousal by a kind of resonance.
Some neuroscientists have extended the idea of mirror systems to what they call a “motor resonance
theory of mind reading,” whereby the nervous system responds “to execution and observation of goaloriented
actions.”36 This resonance is not confined to the brain but to the entire pattern of movements
of the body as well, and no doubt plays a major part in the learning of skills, such as riding a bicycle,
and in other forms of “learning by doing.”
Through repetition, behavioral patterns and skills improve, and become increasingly habitual. Both
the acquisition of new patterns of behavior and remembering them fit well with a resonance model.

[DonQuichotte (OP)]

Recognizing:


Recognizing:
Recognition involves the awareness that a present experience is also remembered: we know that we
were in this place before, or met this person somewhere, or came across this fact or idea. But we may
not be able to recall where or when, or recall the person’s or the place’s name. Recognition and recall
are different kinds of memory: recognition depends on a similarity between present experience and
previous experience. Recall involves an active reconstruction of the past on the basis of remembered
meanings or connections.
Recognizing is easier than recalling. For example, it is usually easier to recognize people than
remember their names. Most of us have remarkable powers of recognition that we usually take for
granted. Many laboratory experiments have demonstrated just how powerful this ability can be. For
example, in one study, subjects were asked to memorize a meaningless shape. When they were asked
to recall it by drawing it, their ability to do so declined rapidly within minutes. By contrast, most
people could pick out the test shape from a range of similar shapes weeks later.37
Recognition, like habituation, depends on morphic resonance with previous similar patterns of
activity. The pattern of vibratory activity within your sensory organs and nervous system when you
see a person you know is similar to the pattern when you saw the same person before. The sensory
stimuli are similar and have similar effects on the sense organs and the nervous system. The greater
the similarity, the stronger the resonance.

[DonQuichotte (OP)]

Recalling:



Recalling:
Conscious recall is an active process. The ability to recall a particular experience depends on the ways
we made connections in the first place. To the extent that we use language to categorize and connect
the elements of experience, we can use language to help reconstruct these past patterns. But we cannot
recall connections that were not made to start with.
Our short-term memory for words and phrases enables us to remember them long enough to grasp
their connections and understand their meanings. We usually remember meanings—patterns of
connection—rather than the actual words. It is relatively easy to summarize the gist of a recent
conversation but, for most of us, impossible to reproduce it verbatim. The same is true of written
language: you may recall some of the facts and ideas in the preceding chapters of this book, but you
will probably recall very few passages word for word.
Short-term memories provide the opportunities for elements of our near-present experience to be
connected with each other, as well as with past experience. What is not connected is forgotten. Shortterm
memory is often compared to a computer’s RAM (Random Access Memory), and has a very
limited capacity, typically 7±2 items. In the 1940s, the neuroscientist Donald Hebb pointed out that
such short-term memories, lasting less than a minute, were unlikely to be stored chemically and
suggested that they might depend on reverberating circuits of electrical activity—again implying a
process of resonance.
In the case of spatial recall—for instance, in remembering the layout of a particular house—the
connections between different spaces are related to movements of the body; for example, along a
corridor, climbing stairs and entering a room.
The principles of memorizing and recalling have long been understood; the basic principles of
mnemonic systems were well known in classical times and were taught to students of rhetoric,
providing techniques for establishing connections that enable items to be recalled more easily.38 Some
methods depend on verbal connections and involve coding the information in rhymes, phrases or
sentences. For instance, “Richard Of York Gained Battles In Vain” is a well-known mnemonic for the
colors of the rainbow (Red, Orange, Yellow, Green, Blue, Indigo, Violet). Other systems are spatial
and rely on visual imagery. For instance, in the “method of loci” one first memorizes a sequence of
locations; for example, the various rooms and cupboards of one’s own house. Each item to be recalled
is then visualized in one of these locations, and remembered by imagining walking from one place to
the other and finding the object there. Modern mnemonic systems, such as systems for improving your
memory power advertized in popular magazines, are the heirs of this long and rich tradition.39
Memorizing spatial patterns in many animals depends on the activity of the hippocampus, as
discussed above, and the activity of the brain in this and other regions seems to be necessary for
connecting together the items to be recalled. Between being laid down and recalled, the memories are
usually supposed to be encoded in elusive long-term memory traces. The resonance hypothesis fits the
facts better. The pattern of connections established when the memories are formed is associated with
rhythmic patterns of brain activity. The memories are recalled through similar patterns of activity
established by morphic resonance. They are not stored as traces in the brain.

[DonQuichotte (OP)]

Experimental Tests :



Experimental tests:
If memories are stored in individual animals’ brains, then anything an animal learns is confined to its
own brain. When it dies the memory is extinguished. But if memory is a resonant phenomenon
through which organisms specifically resonate with themselves in the past, individual memory and
collective memory are different aspects of the same phenomenon; they differ in degree, not in kind.
This hypothesis is testable. If rats learn a new trick in one place, then rats all over the world should
be able to learn the same trick quicker. The more rats that learn it, the easier it should become
everywhere else. There is already evidence from one of the longest series of experiments in the history
of psychology that rats do indeed seem to learn quicker what other rats have already learned. The
more that learned to escape from a water maze, the easier it became for others to do so. These
experiments, conducted first at Harvard, then at Edinburgh and Melbourne universities, showed that
the Scottish and Australian rats took up more or less where the Harvard rats had left off, and their
descendants learned even faster. Some got it right first time with no need for learning at all. In the
experiment at Melbourne University, a line of control rats, whose parents had never been trained,
showed the same pattern of improvement as rats descended from trained parents, showing that this
effect was not passed through the genes, or through epigenetic modifications of genes. All similar rats
learned quicker, just as the hypothesis of morphic resonance would predict.40
Likewise, humans should be able to learn more easily what others have already learned. New skills
like snowboarding and playing computer games should become easier to learn, on average. Of course
there will always be faster and slower learners, but the general tendency should be toward quicker
learning. Much anecdotal evidence suggests that this is so. But for hard, quantitative evidence, the
best place to look is in standardized tests that have remained more or less the same over decades.
Intelligence quotient (IQ) tests are a good example. By morphic resonance, the questions should
become easier to answer because so many people have answered them before. The scores in the tests
should rise not because people are becoming more intelligent but because the tests are becoming
easier to do. Just such an effect has in fact occurred and is known as the Flynn effect after the
psychologist James Flynn, who has done so much to document this phenomenon.41 Average IQ test
scores have been rising for decades by 30 percent or more. Data from the United States are in Figure
7.2.
FIGURE 7.2. THE FLYNN EFFECT: changes in average IQ scores in the United States, relative to 1989
values.42
There has been a long debate among psychologists about possible reasons for the Flynn effect.
Attempted explanations in terms of nutrition, urbanization, exposure to TV and practice with
examinations seem to account for only a small part of this effect. At first Flynn confessed himself
baffled, and has tried out a number of ever more complex explanations. His most recent attempt
ascribes this effect to a change in the general culture:
The best short-hand description I can offer is this. During the twentieth century, people invested
their intelligence in the solution of new cognitive problems. Formal education played a
proximate causal role but a full appreciation of causes involves grasping the total impact of the
industrial revolution.43
The trouble is that this hypothesis is vague, obscure and untestable. Morphic resonance provides a
simpler explanation.
Scientists in universities in Europe and America have already carried out a series of tests
specifically designed to test for morphic resonance in human learning, particularly in connection with
written languages. Most have given positive, statistically significant results.44 This is inevitably a
controversial area of research but, unlike Flynn’s hypothesis, morphic resonance is relatively easy to
test with animals and people.

[DonQuichotte (OP)]

What Difference  Does It Make ? :




What difference does it make?:
I find it makes a big difference to think of tuning in to my memories, instead of retrieving them from
stores inside my brain by obscure molecular mechanisms. Resonance feels more plausible and fits
better with experience. It is also more compatible with the findings of brain research: memory traces
are nowhere to be found.
In research there would be a shift of focus from the molecular details of nerve cells to the transfer
of memory by resonance. This shift would also open up the question of collective memory, which the
psychologist C. G. Jung thought of in terms of the collective unconscious.
If learning involves a process of resonance not only with the teacher who is transmitting the skill,
but all those who have learned it before, educational methods could be improved by deliberately
enhancing the process of resonance, leading to a faster and more effective transfer of skills.
The resonance theory of memory also opens up a religious question. All religions take it for granted
that some aspect of a person’s memory survives that person’s bodily death. In Hindu and Buddhist
theories of reincarnation or rebirth, memories, habits or tendencies are carried over from one life to
another. This transfer of memory is part of the action of karma, a kind of causation across time;
actions bring about effects in the future, even in later lives. In Christianity there are several different
theories of survival, but all imply a survival of memory. According to the Roman Catholic doctrine of
Purgatory, after death believers enter an ongoing process of development, comparable to dreaming.
This process would make no sense unless the person’s memories played a part in the process. Some
Protestants believe that after death everyone goes to sleep, only to be resurrected just before the Last
Judgment. But this theory too requires a survival of memory because the Last Judgment would be
meaningless if the person being judged had forgotten who he was and what he had done.
By contrast, the materialist theory is simple. Memories are in the brain; the brain decays at death;
therefore all memories are wiped out forever. For an atheist, what could be a better proof of the folly
of religious belief? All religious theories of survival are impossible because they all rely on the
survival of personal memories, which are wiped out when the brain decays. The materialist theory
leaves the question of the survival of bodily death closed. By contrast, the resonance theory leaves the
question open. Memories themselves do not decay at death, but can continue to act by resonance, as
long as there is a vibratory system that they can resonate with. They contribute to the collective
memory of the species. But whether or not there is an immaterial part of the self that can still access
these memories in the absence of a brain is another question.

[DonQuichotte (OP)]

I am , in fact , very skeptical about your allegation that you are a pro scientist : how can that be ?

Fortunately you are not my client, patient, bank manager or professional registrar, all of whom seem convinced that I do know what I am talking about (though my students are encouraged to disagree).
 
 

: you might be one , but a very ignorant one regarding the nature of science , its alleged objectivity,

alleged by whom? Only a fantasist. It's a process, so it can't have human characteristics like objectivity.

If you are a scientist , i am Elvis :

Excerpts from "Science Set Free ..." By Sheldrake : Chapter 12 : Scientific Futures :


The sciences are entering a new phase. The materialist ideology that has ruled them since the
nineteenth century is out of date. All ten of its essential doctrines have been superseded. The
authoritarian structure of the sciences, the illusions of objectivity and the fantasies of omniscience
have all outlived their usefulness.
The sciences will have to change for another reason too: they are now global. Mechanistic science
and the materialist ideology grew up in Europe, and were strongly influenced by the religious disputes
that obsessed Europeans from the seventeenth century onward. But these preoccupations are alien to
cultures and traditions in many other parts of the world.
In 2011, the worldwide expenditure on scientific and technological research and development was
more than $1,000 billion, of which China spent $100 billion.1 Asian countries, especially China and
India, now produce enormous numbers of science and engineering graduates. In 2007, at BSc level
there were 2.5 million science and engineering graduates in India and 1.5 million in China,2 compared
with 515,000 in the United States3 and 100,000 in the UK.4 In addition, many of those studying in the
United States and Europe are from other countries: in 2007, nearly a third of the graduate students in
science and engineering in the United States were foreign, with the majority from India, China and
Korea.5
Yet the sciences as taught in Asia, Africa, the Islamic countries and elsewhere are still packaged in
an ideology shaped by their European past. Materialism gains its persuasive power from the
technological applications of science. But the successes of these applications do not prove that this
ideology is true. Penicillin will go on killing bacteria, jet planes will keep on flying and mobile
telephones will still work if scientists move on to wider views of nature.
No one can foresee how the sciences will evolve, but I believe recognizing that “science” is not one
thing will facilitate their development. “Science” has given way to “the sciences.” By moving beyond
physicalism, the status of physics has changed. By freeing the sciences from the ideology of
materialism, new opportunities for debate and dialogue open up, and so do new possibilities for
research.

[DonQuichotte (OP)]

That's 1 of the reasons  why   materialism is false .
As of the damaged areas of the human brain that seem to cause the loss of their corresponding parts of consciousness ....I just see that as being the case of the damaged receiver or brain that stops to receive those corresponding "signals " from  those corresponding parts of consciousness ...
Besides, the hard problem of consciousness can be only approached by a potentially non-reductionist approach,obviously  , in the sense that we can study the physical brain , while trying to figure out how it interacts with consciousness as such .....
Later then .

P.S.: No one yet , if ever , including Nagel, Sheldrake and the rest , were /are able to come up with a cristal-clear vision concerning how the potentially non-reductionist approach of consciousness , memory ,cognition, feelings , emotions ...can be done on the reality ground , or what that non-reductionist approach exactly is , how it might work ...

Yes, that would seem to be a bit of a problem, wouldn't it?

It's also ironic, that by relocating consciousness, and removing consciousness from the physical being whenever its receiver is malfunctioning, you have managed to reduce human beings to biological robots in a way no materialist has ever dared to do. You've out done Dawkins, my boy!

Don't insult me , dear , by comparing me to ...Dawkins, please ...God ...
You know :
I was terrified once by experiencing the following :
After an agitated  night sleep , i was about to wake up , when i realised i could not move any part of my body : i panicked , i was terrified for a moment , and then i persuaded myself that this "paralysis " was just temporary and that i would overcome  it eventually  by just relaxing .
I calmed down while praying  ,full of hope and expectation,  and waited to see what happens next.
I felt like being imprisoned within my motionless body i could not control or move : i felt that  the powerless  me is inside of that motionless body cage prison of mine : i cannot even describe what i really and exactly felt and experienced during those terrifying short moments .
I was lucky enough to regain control of my body again  afterwards  .
A relative of mine was , once, declared clinically dead ,but , when he was about to be put to rest in his grave , he started suddenly ,luckily enough for him, to scream and move hysterically : then, he was delivered from that terrible predicament of his ...
There are many cases like that of people getting buried alive , while they are totally conscious , but cannot move any of their body parts ...They seemed  dead , but they were actually not .
There are also many cases of people who were struck by strokes , and eventually did recover ,partly or fully , from their paralysis , and they described their aweful experiences afterwards : they struggled with so much pain and frustrations to move their paralyzed bodies , in vain, but , after many attempts ,exercises , faith and hope ,determination, ...they succeeded in recovering , partly or fully thus,despite the fact that their doctors told them they would never recover from their paralysis  : you can read all about that and much more in this interesting book :
"You are not your Brain,The 4 -step solution for changing bad habits , ending unhealthy thinking ,and taking control of your life  " by Jeffrey M.Schwarts Author of  the bestseller  " Brain Lock " , and Rebecca Gladding .
I think that the human brain as a receiver is also responsible for unconscious reflexive instinctive survival motor and other functions .....but, cobsciousness is the real boss, i guess, relatively speaking : The mind is way more primordial and fundamental than matter or the physical brain can ever be :the physical brain might be just an executive tool for consciousness ...
I dunno: see those scientific studies regarding the placebo effect , even in surgery ...i provided you with a link for earlier , to mention just that , and there are many cases that proved the healing power of the mind to be true in relation to the body as well ...
You are asking me to tell you how the immaterial consciousness or transmitter , so to speak, can interact with the physical brain .....how consciousness in that sense can be studied scientifically ....I say : beat me, i do not know yet : I just think that when science proper will be delivered from that materialist primitive outdated  backward orthodox secular religion  prison it has been confined to for so long now , then and only then, science will  be able to offer some new ways of understanding consciousness and the rest , relatively speaking .
Besides, we cannot , obviously , know all what there is to know out there , simply because of our limited human faculties and capacities , despite the fact that science can extend the scope and reach of the latter ...
I am , in fact , pretty skeptical about the fact whether science can ever be able for that matter or not to explain anything regarding consciousness ...i dunno : even the so-called non-reductionist naturalism as a possible alternative to reductionist naturalism can, obviously , not account for consciousness, life , human cognition ... from within nature thus .
In other words :
I do not see how nature could ever have been able , so to speak, to generate mind , life , or consciousness ...that lunatic atheist Nagel does think otherwise though on the subject ,of course = makes no sense that nature can  ever able to accomplish such extraordinary performance , let alone how nature can ever do just that = makes no sense  ...
Read the above then .

[DonQuichotte (OP)]

... As of the damaged areas of the human brain that seem to cause the loss of their corresponding parts of consciousness ....I just see that as being the case of the damaged receiver or brain that stops to receive those corresponding "signals " from  those corresponding parts of consciousness ..

Oh dear. Did you miss the parts where Chery described brain injuries that affect the subject's knowledge and judgement without affecting movement or communication?

If your external consciousness hypothesis was correct, the external consciousness's knowledge & judgement would not be affected, and it would be able to communicate that, as it would still have control of the brain's communication facilities.

How do you account for this?

(I see consciousness or the soul as permeating the body from within and without , within every cell, atom , organ ...of the body ,and without ,i dunno )

Well, those brain injuries that affected knowledge and judgement of that patient ,without affecting movement and communication,may have caused those corresponding parts of consciousness to somehow 'disconnect " from their corresponding damaged brain areas ,  that's why they could not get through via those damaged areas of the brain, i dunno : i can only speculate about this .
I never pretended to know how consciousness interacts with the brain and vice versa ...otherwise , i should have deserved more than beyond a nobel prize for that , don't you think ?

[DonQuichotte (OP)]

...perhaps you could explain how science will be done when it is free of 'materialist bullshit'?

Well, materialism will be history : inevitable = just a matter of time  indeed , materialism that has been superseded even by the physical sciences, especially by quantum physics ...
How come you still do not get it yet , after all these lengthy kilometers of pages on this thread ?
Science will continue using its effective and unparalleled method that's like no other , but will be free from that materialist prison...
Science will then be able to approach the universe or reality as not exclusively physical biological processes ...
...the mental side of nature will not be reduced to just physics and chemistry ....
What part of these statements can't you understand ?

I understand what you just said, but it didn't answer the question. Perhaps it was too general for you...

Let's be more specific; science involves observation, making hypotheses, and testing hypotheses; how do you propose that science observes the non-material, or tests a hypothesis about the non-material?

One can apply some sort of phenomenological approaches in that regard ,or indeed just try to study the effects of the immaterial consciousness  or mind  in relation to the physical brain : one should also not a-priori disregard those proved to be true mysterious healing powers of the mind in relation to the body or brain : the placebo effect ...
One should also not a -priori disregrad telepathy , and other psychic phenomena ..just because materialism says so , materialism as a false conception of nature in science thus, science should be delivered from  : see the work of Sheldrake on the subject as wel, while you are at it .
Besides, learning more about the functioning  or neurophysiology  , anatomy and activity of the brain, we still do not know much about despite all those advances of neuroscience in that regard , neuroscience that's also still kept within the narrow-minded exclusive false  walls of  the crippling ideological materialist prison though , neuroscience should also be liberated from thus , learning more about the physical brain thus might shed some  light on consciousness, indirectly , somehow ,also .

For someone who knows what they're talking about, it should be easy enough to give a realistic example; as that someone said recently, "when one pretends to know this or that  about something , one gotta prove that to be true".

See what i said to Cheryl here above on the subject .
All forms of naturalism, either reductionist or non -reductionist , all forms of anti-reductionist idealism ....cannot account for such processes fully such as life , consciousness, human cognition, memory , conscience , feelings , emotions, human love ........
In other words :
Only the right true universal cosmopolitan theism as a potentially valid conception of nature or meta-paradigm in science , combined with science while being separated from it as well in the process  = no contradiction ,might lead humanity somewhere on the subject of consciousness, life , ......................i guess, i dunno for sure either ...

As Sheldrake said in that above mentioned book of his : planes will still keep on flying , gsm's will continue functioning , internet will still be there , science will still continue to be practiced and deliver results ....if or when  that outdated false  materialism in science is out of the pic ....

[DonQuichotte (OP)]

Excerpts from "Science Set Free ..." By Sheldrake : Chapter 12 : Scientific Futures :
In other words : dear westerners : you'd better try to get rid of that Eurocentric outdated primitive backward orthodox materialist false secular religion in science, otherwise , you will find yourselves suddenly way behind the rest of the world at the level of the sciences , in plural, at least : you are warned :


The sciences are entering a new phase. The materialist ideology that has ruled them since the
nineteenth century is out of date. All ten of its essential doctrines have been superseded. The
authoritarian structure of the sciences, the illusions of objectivity and the fantasies of omniscience
have all outlived their usefulness.
The sciences will have to change for another reason too: they are now global. Mechanistic science
and the materialist ideology grew up in Europe, and were strongly influenced by the religious disputes
that obsessed Europeans from the seventeenth century onward. But these preoccupations are alien to
cultures and traditions in many other parts of the world.
In 2011, the worldwide expenditure on scientific and technological research and development was
more than $1,000 billion, of which China spent $100 billion.1 Asian countries, especially China and
India, now produce enormous numbers of science and engineering graduates. In 2007, at BSc level
there were 2.5 million science and engineering graduates in India and 1.5 million in China,2 compared
with 515,000 in the United States3 and 100,000 in the UK.4 In addition, many of those studying in the
United States and Europe are from other countries: in 2007, nearly a third of the graduate students in
science and engineering in the United States were foreign, with the majority from India, China and
Korea.5
Yet the sciences as taught in Asia, Africa, the Islamic countries and elsewhere are still packaged in
an ideology shaped by their European past. Materialism gains its persuasive power from the
technological applications of science. But the successes of these applications do not prove that this
ideology is true. Penicillin will go on killing bacteria, jet planes will keep on flying and mobile
telephones will still work if scientists move on to wider views of nature.
No one can foresee how the sciences will evolve, but I believe recognizing that “science” is not one
thing will facilitate their development. “Science” has given way to “the sciences.” By moving beyond
physicalism, the status of physics has changed. By freeing the sciences from the ideology of
materialism, new opportunities for debate and dialogue open up, and so do new possibilities for
research.

[alancalverd]

If you are a scientist , i am Elvis :

Feel free to check my qualifications and professional registrations. Or contact Rupert Sheldrake - we've not been in touch for years!

Can you do a gig next Saturday? The hall is already hired for a big band show (they know most of your Las Vegas numbers), no problem raising backing singers, and I have a quartet of contemporary rockers who will be delighted to work through your early stuff from memory. Name your price, big fella - I'm sure it will be a sellout. And as many burgers as you want.   

[dlorde]

how do you propose that science observes the non-material, or tests a hypothesis about the non-material?

One can apply some sort of phenomenological approaches in that regard

Such as?

For someone who knows what they're talking about, it should be easy enough to give a realistic example..

See what i said to Cheryl here above on the subject .

I'll take that as, "I haven't a clue..." 

[DonQuichotte (OP)]

If you are a scientist , i am Elvis :

Feel free to check my qualifications and professional registrations. Or contact Rupert Sheldrake - we've not been in touch for years!

Can you do a gig next Saturday? The hall is already hired for a big band show (they know most of your Las Vegas numbers), no problem raising backing singers, and I have a quartet of contemporary rockers who will be delighted to work through your early stuff from memory. Name your price, big fella - I'm sure it will be a sellout. And as many burgers as you want.

Well, judging from your own replies and behaviour here on this forum , you 're either a  vulgar  liar , or a lousy third or x grade "scientist " , sorry : no pain, no gain, truth does hurt sometimes.
No hard feelings , right ?

[dlorde]

Incidentally Don, you might find this SciAm article on the materialism and science interesting: Is Scientific Materialism “Almost Certainly False”?. The author, John Horgan, approves of Nagel's book, but it's the comments to the article that tell the story

[DonQuichotte (OP)]

how do you propose that science observes the non-material, or tests a hypothesis about the non-material?

One can apply some sort of phenomenological approaches in that regard

Such as?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenomenology

For someone who knows what they're talking about, it should be easy enough to give a realistic example..

See what i said to Cheryl here above on the subject .

I'll take that as, "I haven't a clue..."

See what i said to Cheryl on the subject .

[DonQuichotte (OP)]

Incidentally Don, you might find this SciAm article on the materialism and science interesting: Is Scientific Materialism “Almost Certainly False”?. The author, John Horgan, approves of Nagel's book, but it's the comments to the article that tell the story

Well, i did just read some parts of some comments quickly :
Obviously , those commentators do confuse materialism with science proper and with scientific results , as you all do , ironically enough = very predictable = there is no such a thing such as the "scientific " materialism , just the materialist false conception of nature in science that has absolutely nothing to do with science proper , let alone with scientific results , scientific approaches , scientific method .....
I will read some more , later .
I do agree with atheist Nagel's analysis , relatively speaking , regarding the materialist false conception of nature in science , but , i do reject his proposed vague alternative to materialism ,to mention just that,  simply because it is also a false conception of nature : what can one expect from an atheist in that regard indeed , right :  just another false conception of nature thus = very predictable indeed.
Nagel tried to come up with some teleological and non-reductionist naturalist approach or conceptions of nature to account for the "fact " that consciousness,mind,  life , human cognition....were "generated" , so to speak , by nature haha = makes no sense = Nagel does not realise that he also tries to do what he accuses materialism of doing = he tries to make his non-reductionist naturalist "teleological " atheism fit the scientific data as well haha
Nagel is an irritating torturing read also , i did skip many of those pages of that book of his as a result ...
Sheldrake's "Science set free ..." is an extremely enjoyable fascinating interesting read though , even though i do not share his morphic resonance fields theory with him , to say just that ....

[cheryl j]

I'll have to look into the rat experiment. There have been problems reproducing other research he cites or has done, like the staring experiment. ( http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=ruperts-resonance )

 Any phenomena that is new is worth pursuing, trying to reproduce and explain, no argument from me. But again, if you suggest a mechanism (like morphic fields), the validity of the claim rests on evidence that directly supports, not lack of some other mechanism. Saying "well, this is how it could work...." is a nice start, I guess, but that's all it is.

 The one thing I wondered about the rat experiment, how genetically similar do the rats have to be? And can they access the squirrel channel if they need to?

There are two things that bother me: 1) The repetitive claim that science has somehow "crippled" itself by materialism, when the research productivity is exploding in neurology. You and Sheldrake may not like their conclusions, but it is not grinding to halt for some reason.

The second is, when mystics or fringe scientists invent an alternative model for a process in science, or mystical explanation for a phenomena, they seem to think they are off the hook, and won't have their very own complaints and criticisms turned against them. "But Sheldrake, how can some simple field explain love and poetry and culture, and my unique individuality, blood sweat and tears, hopes and dreams, Duck Dynasty and all of human history and....no way makes no sense! Science proper has been hijacked by morphism!"

Incidentally the placebo effect does not always mean that beliefs or expectations made patients better. In experiments, it is used to control for a number of variables, such as diseases healing via physical processes with or without the drug, or patients not wanting to disappoint their caregivers by complaining that the medicine didn't work, etc. I'm not saying a patient's mental state has no effect, just that that isn't the sole purpose of placebos.