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P.S.: What do you think of that link i provided you with earlier , concerning "Why materialism is false ?" .
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 11/10/2013 18:00:53Quote from: dlorde on 10/10/2013 21:14:36Quote from: alancalverd on 10/10/2013 20:49:37But give DonQ credit for the joke - I like it. And it also tells us that DonQ is a sinistral.Also give him credit that despite the usual ill-mannered insults to me for pointing out his blunder, he did go back and edit his post to remove the offensive 'nazi' reference...Thanks for noticing : what a miracle .What offensive nazi reference by the way ? I just thought that Cheryl was alluding to the nazis when she talked about those bragging Germans about their racial heritage = my blunder and mistake , so, i just said that that nazi "comparison or analogy " was disgusting , insulting ............What, on earth, is wrong with your comprehension skills, friend ?Well, actually I was alluding to Nazis, and I was comparing your boasts to that sort of thing. So no need to apologize, Don.
Quote from: dlorde on 10/10/2013 21:14:36Quote from: alancalverd on 10/10/2013 20:49:37But give DonQ credit for the joke - I like it. And it also tells us that DonQ is a sinistral.Also give him credit that despite the usual ill-mannered insults to me for pointing out his blunder, he did go back and edit his post to remove the offensive 'nazi' reference...Thanks for noticing : what a miracle .What offensive nazi reference by the way ? I just thought that Cheryl was alluding to the nazis when she talked about those bragging Germans about their racial heritage = my blunder and mistake , so, i just said that that nazi "comparison or analogy " was disgusting , insulting ............What, on earth, is wrong with your comprehension skills, friend ?
Quote from: alancalverd on 10/10/2013 20:49:37But give DonQ credit for the joke - I like it. And it also tells us that DonQ is a sinistral.Also give him credit that despite the usual ill-mannered insults to me for pointing out his blunder, he did go back and edit his post to remove the offensive 'nazi' reference...
But give DonQ credit for the joke - I like it. And it also tells us that DonQ is a sinistral.
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 11/10/2013 17:38:01P.S.: What do you think of that link i provided you with earlier , concerning "Why materialism is false ?" .You know it's curious that you are most comfortable attacking the weaknesses or lack of progress you perceive in materialism, and want me to defend it all. But when you post crazy stuff by Sheldrake or even Nagel, and their alternative theories, and someone attacks them point by point, suddenly you disassociate yourself from them, and say their opinions are not really yours; you are just sharing them to broaden our horizons.
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 11/10/2013 17:10:17In the above first part of this post of yours , you expressed your legetimate suspicion skepticism and aversion regarding any race ,nationality ,geography . culture...based ideologies or manufactured illusionary "identities " based on race , ethnicity , sectarianism, geography , cultures , nationalities ...and rightly so, but ,then again, you immediatly went on boosting about the Canadian achievements ...= how paradoxical can you be ? Um, no, I was just kidding around. I was not sincerely bragging about the invention of the paint roller, although, it is quite nifty when you need one.
In the above first part of this post of yours , you expressed your legetimate suspicion skepticism and aversion regarding any race ,nationality ,geography . culture...based ideologies or manufactured illusionary "identities " based on race , ethnicity , sectarianism, geography , cultures , nationalities ...and rightly so, but ,then again, you immediatly went on boosting about the Canadian achievements ...= how paradoxical can you be ?
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 11/10/2013 17:10:17I told you i was just responding to that post of yours earlier , didn't i? I see no point in repeating myself .I do even reject such notions or rather illusions such as nationality, nationalism , patriotism ....not to mention all those illusionary ridiculous "identities " based on race (White supremacists ....ku kulx klan haha , neo-nazis, skin heads ....Arab nationalism ....the mainstream global dominance of white Eurocentrism and white Eurocentric materialism ...Chinese nationalism , Turkish nationalism ...Russian nationalism ...), ethnicity , geography, belief .............P.S.: There are actually muslims from all nationalities, races, ethnic groups , skin color , sex, from different cultures, nations,geographies ..............Once again, universal Islam happened/ happens and will continue to happen proclaiming the obvious God-given equality of all peoples , regardless of their race , skin color, sex , belief , ethnicity .............Belief? well, as I understand it, you aren't really equal unless you share their religious beliefs and adhere to their practices, so I would say it is a bit a little exclusionary in that sense. Which is fine, their club, their rules.
I told you i was just responding to that post of yours earlier , didn't i? I see no point in repeating myself .I do even reject such notions or rather illusions such as nationality, nationalism , patriotism ....not to mention all those illusionary ridiculous "identities " based on race (White supremacists ....ku kulx klan haha , neo-nazis, skin heads ....Arab nationalism ....the mainstream global dominance of white Eurocentrism and white Eurocentric materialism ...Chinese nationalism , Turkish nationalism ...Russian nationalism ...), ethnicity , geography, belief .............P.S.: There are actually muslims from all nationalities, races, ethnic groups , skin color , sex, from different cultures, nations,geographies ..............Once again, universal Islam happened/ happens and will continue to happen proclaiming the obvious God-given equality of all peoples , regardless of their race , skin color, sex , belief , ethnicity .............
Objectivity is a myth
Quote from: cheryl j on 12/10/2013 01:19:18Quote from: DonQuichotte on 11/10/2013 17:10:17In the above first part of this post of yours , you expressed your legetimate suspicion skepticism and aversion regarding any race ,nationality ,geography . culture...based ideologies or manufactured illusionary "identities " based on race , ethnicity , sectarianism, geography , cultures , nationalities ...and rightly so, but ,then again, you immediatly went on boosting about the Canadian achievements ...= how paradoxical can you be ? Um, no, I was just kidding around. I was not sincerely bragging about the invention of the paint roller, although, it is quite nifty when you need one.Wow, please do not insult my relative intelligence ........by lying and by being dishonest in that regard , come on ........I should be the one "insulting " you ,by raising the issue of nazism, since you yourself admitted that you have some German "blood " running in your veins , or German "genes " in your body , but i won't do that , simply because not all Germans can be blamed for nazism, especially not those post-war German generations ...
... the non-material processes or the non-material side of reality can be approached by science , indirectly , via a multitude of ways , especially via approaching their material basis .
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 12/10/2013 19:03:30Quote from: cheryl j on 12/10/2013 01:19:18Quote from: DonQuichotte on 11/10/2013 17:10:17In the above first part of this post of yours , you expressed your legetimate suspicion skepticism and aversion regarding any race ,nationality ,geography . culture...based ideologies or manufactured illusionary "identities " based on race , ethnicity , sectarianism, geography , cultures , nationalities ...and rightly so, but ,then again, you immediatly went on boosting about the Canadian achievements ...= how paradoxical can you be ? Um, no, I was just kidding around. I was not sincerely bragging about the invention of the paint roller, although, it is quite nifty when you need one.Wow, please do not insult my relative intelligence ........by lying and by being dishonest in that regard , come on ........I should be the one "insulting " you ,by raising the issue of nazism, since you yourself admitted that you have some German "blood " running in your veins , or German "genes " in your body , but i won't do that , simply because not all Germans can be blamed for nazism, especially not those post-war German generations ... I'm just not convinced that your attribution of the invention of science to Islam is purely the result of your historical curiosity. You clearly have an axe to grind, and you couldn't be more obvious about it. I wasn't calling you, personally, a Nazi. I was simply making the point I have rarely seen anything good come from rekindling these ancient rivalries, and trying to prove which group is superior. It never ends well.
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 11/10/2013 18:42:58... the non-material processes or the non-material side of reality can be approached by science , indirectly , via a multitude of ways , especially via approaching their material basis .Such as what, for example?
QuoteObjectivity is a mythNo, it's a desideratum. Not the same thing at all.
Quote from: dlorde on 13/10/2013 13:58:15Quote from: DonQuichotte on 11/10/2013 18:42:58... the non-material processes or the non-material side of reality can be approached by science , indirectly , via a multitude of ways , especially via approaching their material basis .Such as what, for example?Such as trying to figure just that out for yourself via reading Nagel's and Sheldrake's above mentioned books,for example ,or just via reading the multiple excerpts of those books i did post here , just for your blue lovely scientific eyes .I am not gonna do the job for you ,you will not appreciate anyway , so, why should i bother
P.S.: Why do you continue playing these kindda distractions , in order to avoid tackling the core issue here concerning consciousness and therefore concerning the very simple obvious and undeniable fact that materialism is false : that the universe is not just a matter of physics and chemistry , that the universe is not only and exclusively a matter of ....matter haha ,or of material processes only ...whatever matter itself or material processes might ever be.That materialist belief in science or rather that's been imposed on science since the 19th century at least is the epitome of stupidity in all the history of mankind ever = an understatement : How can you believe in such materialist irrational extremely and unbelievably idiotic materialist belief you do continue to confuse with science , amazignly incredibly unbelievably ironically enough = the human will to believe is inexhaustible ....indeed.
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 13/10/2013 17:04:57P.S.: Why do you continue playing these kindda distractions , in order to avoid tackling the core issue here concerning consciousness and therefore concerning the very simple obvious and undeniable fact that materialism is false : that the universe is not just a matter of physics and chemistry , that the universe is not only and exclusively a matter of ....matter haha ,or of material processes only ...whatever matter itself or material processes might ever be.That materialist belief in science or rather that's been imposed on science since the 19th century at least is the epitome of stupidity in all the history of mankind ever = an understatement : How can you believe in such materialist irrational extremely and unbelievably idiotic materialist belief you do continue to confuse with science , amazignly incredibly unbelievably ironically enough = the human will to believe is inexhaustible ....indeed.As unbelievable as it seems to you that one might not simply accept as a "fact" your assertion that "materialism is false" "irrational" "idiotic" "a mis-conception," and not really science, that is exactly how baffled I am by your unwillingness to accept that your claims for alternative explanations rest on evidence that directly support them, not lack of other kinds of evidence. While you mention that there are ways to test these non-material based hypotheses, whenever dlorde asks how, specifically, you refuse to answer. Although you call materialism, "false", on occasion, you have admitted that it has been a successful tool in science, which would seem to imply it is not actually "false" but in your view, incomplete or limited. It hasn't explained everything. I'm sure materialists themselves would agree that everything has not yet been explained. So, in my view, the real crux of the disagreement is that materialists are saying, well it's worked well so far, lets keep going. And you believe it is a dead end road, and that it will eventually hit a wall, or that it has already, because of what it has not yet explained.What I don't understand about mystics, though, is why they think they have solved the problem by passing the buck. They are amazed by the worlds complexity, diversity, and beauty, and they feel it can't be explained by atoms and molecules and chemical reactions and neurons firing. So they add something - "It must be God!" Or "it must be natural teleology!" Terrific, but now you are stuck trying to explain how this natural teleology works, how it affects, or interacts with, or determines things, what it predicts. Or you have to explain what God is, what he does or doesn't do, what he wants or doesn't want. All you've really done is replaced "an unknown material mechanism" with an "unknown immaterial mechanism." Unless, of course, you simply refuse to explain it at all, and are content with some version of "the unmoved mover," the ultimate cause that does not require explanation, and cannot be explained. And that is essentially what Sheldrake does, he just opts out. In his book The New Science, he says:“Morphic resonance is non-energetic, and morphogenetic fields themselves are neither a type of mass nor energy. Therefore there seems to be no a priori reason why it should obey the laws that have been found to apply to the movement of bodies, particles and waves. In particular, it need not be attenuated by either spatial or temporal separation between similar systems, it could be just as effective over 10,000 kilometres as over a centimetre, and over a century as an hour.The assumption that morphic resonance is not attenuated by time and space will be adopted as a provisional working hypothesis, on the ground of simplicity.”As one critic put it, it's such a ludicrous assumption, explicitly designed to be untestable by science, that there’s really no point going any further. Like faith, you either have to choose to believe it, or you don't. To me, that really is a dead end. If materialism does turn out to have limits, at least in the interim it can tell me a lot of interesting and useful stuff about the physical world and human beings, and I just don't see that potential in any of the non-material models you have proposed.
I am afraid , i was just wasting my time on you again, since you are not even able to recognize and acknowledge the very simple obvious undeniable fact that materialism is not ...science .
QuoteI am afraid , i was just wasting my time on you again, since you are not even able to recognize and acknowledge the very simple obvious undeniable fact that materialism is not ...science .You are indeed, since I never said it was. No "ism" can be science, by definition.
DonQuichotte : Materialism and Science are not the same thing.
Alancalverd : except, apparently, in your own ravings.Beware of selfcontradiction. Remember the fate of the Oozlum bird: not knowing whether it was coming or going, it changed direction so many times that it flew up its own arse and disappeared. Incidentally this is the basis of Continuum String Theory.