0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
See , for example , how epigenetics have been refuting the materialist mechanistic neo-Darwinian view of the world ,regarding inheritance : acquired characteristics get passed on from generation to generation :
... See , for example , how epigenetics have been refuting the materialist mechanistic neo-Darwinian view of the world ,regarding inheritance : acquired characteristics get passed on from generation to generation :Darwin himself by the way was a convinced Lamarckian ,in the sense that he did accept that kind of inheritance , while even trying to deliver some theories to explain just that : the materialist neo-Darwinians such as Dennett , Dawkins ...do reject that Lamarckian view of evolution and inheritance , obviously ...
Quote from: cheryl j on 23/11/2013 19:16:45Quote from: DonQuichotte on 23/11/2013 18:59:16See , for example , how epigenetics have been refuting the materialist mechanistic neo-Darwinian view of the world ,regarding inheritance : acquired characteristics get passed on from generation to generation :There's nothing immaterial about epigenetics. It's just an additional physical mechanism or process that affects genes besides mutation.
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 23/11/2013 18:59:16See , for example , how epigenetics have been refuting the materialist mechanistic neo-Darwinian view of the world ,regarding inheritance : acquired characteristics get passed on from generation to generation :There's nothing immaterial about epigenetics. It's just an additional physical mechanism or process that affects genes besides mutation.
Science must start looking for non-physical forms of causation, or for non-physical or mental phenomena , that are still unknown to science , that might or must be underlying the laws of physics themselves , by rejecting reductionist materialism .Then, and only then, will science or biology , in this case , be able to explain epigenetics , morphogenesis , birds' homing
I also liked the part about qualia distinguishing real from imaginary, that if beliefs, ideas, memories, etc had qualia as vivid as those associated with perception, it would be impossible for the brain to distinguish between the idea of a monkey sitting in a chair and an actual one; thinking about eating a meal would seem equivalent to actually eating it.
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 23/11/2013 18:59:16... See , for example , how epigenetics have been refuting the materialist mechanistic neo-Darwinian view of the world ,regarding inheritance : acquired characteristics get passed on from generation to generation :Darwin himself by the way was a convinced Lamarckian ,in the sense that he did accept that kind of inheritance , while even trying to deliver some theories to explain just that : the materialist neo-Darwinians such as Dennett , Dawkins ...do reject that Lamarckian view of evolution and inheritance , obviously ...Ah, no. Epigenetics isn't inheritance of acquired characteristics in the Lamarkian sense. Epigenetics is about environmental influences (typically stressors) affecting the physiology of an individual and causing suppression of certain genes via methylation; this gene suppression is potentially heritable. So the only acquired characteristic is the methylation of certain genes.
What makes genes get "imprinted " by acquired characteristics or by acquired enviromental traits ,such as the implications of famine , holocaust , war traumas ....such as tragic events ...as to behave as if they "hold " some sort of a "memory " of past events ...they pass on to the next generations, and beyond ? How does that happen ? just via physics and chemistry ? How ?
Quote from: RD on 23/11/2013 19:30:22Quote from: DonQuichotte on 23/11/2013 19:08:06Science must start looking for non-physical forms of causation, or for non-physical or mental phenomena , that are still unknown to science , that might or must be underlying the laws of physics themselves , by rejecting reductionist materialism .Then, and only then, will science or biology , in this case , be able to explain epigenetics , morphogenesis , birds' homing You must have missed my posts on ...morphogenesis , see ... http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=49531.msg424665#msg424665andbirds homing , see ... http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=49531.msg424182#msg424182
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 23/11/2013 19:08:06Science must start looking for non-physical forms of causation, or for non-physical or mental phenomena , that are still unknown to science , that might or must be underlying the laws of physics themselves , by rejecting reductionist materialism .Then, and only then, will science or biology , in this case , be able to explain epigenetics , morphogenesis , birds' homing You must have missed my posts on ...morphogenesis , see ... http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=49531.msg424665#msg424665andbirds homing , see ... http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=49531.msg424182#msg424182
Ok, i am no expert in biology or genetics , but, how do you explain the inheritance of acquired traits or characteristics then , in the Lamarckian and Darwinian sense , that gets rejected by the materialist neo-Darwinians ?
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 23/11/2013 19:27:06What makes genes get "imprinted " by acquired characteristics or by acquired enviromental traits ,such as the implications of famine , holocaust , war traumas ....such as tragic events ...as to behave as if they "hold " some sort of a "memory " of past events ...they pass on to the next generations, and beyond ? How does that happen ? just via physics and chemistry ? How ?Yes, epigenetics is biochemistry. Read all about it Here: Epigenetics
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 23/11/2013 19:58:22Ok, i am no expert in biology or genetics , but, how do you explain the inheritance of acquired traits or characteristics then , in the Lamarckian and Darwinian sense , that gets rejected by the materialist neo-Darwinians ? I'm not aware of any inheritance of acquired traits or characteristics, in the Lamarckian sense. Have you got an example?
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 19/11/2013 19:13:55When science thus will realise and acknowledge the fact that reality as a whole is not just physical or material , including evolution, the mind or consciousness , and the rest , including matter itself (see modern physics regarding the latter ) It's really a shame that you don't share some of your ideas about chaos theory, observers, causality etc. on the physics forum. They don't know what they are missing.
When science thus will realise and acknowledge the fact that reality as a whole is not just physical or material , including evolution, the mind or consciousness , and the rest , including matter itself (see modern physics regarding the latter )
There were many mechanistic attempts to try to explain birds' homing via the position of the sun , but even at night , birds could get home, or via magnetism by attaching magnets to those birds , via smell , via the so-called biological clock ....none was proven to be "true " .
See the following scientific "heresy " on the subject : enlightening study ://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toRIkRa1fYUTell me then how do you explain just that , that which was revealed in the video above , when you will finish watching it then .
Quote from: dlorde on 23/11/2013 20:24:33Quote from: DonQuichotte on 23/11/2013 20:03:14There were many mechanistic attempts to try to explain birds' homing via the position of the sun , but even at night , birds could get home, or via magnetism by attaching magnets to those birds , via smell , via the so-called biological clock ....none was proven to be "true " .As one might expect, they use a variety of navigation cues; landmark recognition, magnetic field sensing, starfield and sun navigation, olfactory cues, etc. See All About Birds: Navigation. Not every homing or migration mechanism is fully explained, but the majority of those examined have been explained, and there's good reason to be confident that the others will have physical explanations. Experience says unexplained doesn't mean inexplicable. You can always argue that the unexplained may be of 'immaterial' origin until it is explained, 'the immaterial of the gaps'; this seems a rather pointless semantic exercise. But is this is what rocks your boat, go for it. Oh, you did already...
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 23/11/2013 20:03:14There were many mechanistic attempts to try to explain birds' homing via the position of the sun , but even at night , birds could get home, or via magnetism by attaching magnets to those birds , via smell , via the so-called biological clock ....none was proven to be "true " .As one might expect, they use a variety of navigation cues; landmark recognition, magnetic field sensing, starfield and sun navigation, olfactory cues, etc. See All About Birds: Navigation. Not every homing or migration mechanism is fully explained, but the majority of those examined have been explained, and there's good reason to be confident that the others will have physical explanations. Experience says unexplained doesn't mean inexplicable. You can always argue that the unexplained may be of 'immaterial' origin until it is explained, 'the immaterial of the gaps'; this seems a rather pointless semantic exercise. But is this is what rocks your boat, go for it. Oh, you did already...
Answer my question .How do those acquired traits , due to famine, war traumas , holocaust, tragic events ...get passed on to the next generations, and beyond ?
Quote from: dlorde on 23/11/2013 20:33:08Quote from: DonQuichotte on 23/11/2013 20:09:59See the following scientific "heresy " on the subject : enlightening study ://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toRIkRa1fYUTell me then how do you explain just that , that which was revealed in the video above , when you will finish watching it then .What do you think is heretical about it?What about it do you think contradicts what I already described? It may be a little dated, but it's a reasonable summary of epigenetics. It isn't Lamarkism.
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 23/11/2013 20:09:59See the following scientific "heresy " on the subject : enlightening study ://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toRIkRa1fYUTell me then how do you explain just that , that which was revealed in the video above , when you will finish watching it then .What do you think is heretical about it?What about it do you think contradicts what I already described? It may be a little dated, but it's a reasonable summary of epigenetics. It isn't Lamarkism.
Although conjecture in the late nineteenth century held that birds could use the earth's magnetic field, it was only in the 1960s that scientists first demonstrated this experimentally.
The Magnetic CompassAnother German team did research with the European Robin in the early 1960s. In their tests, robins in a migratory mood were placed in covered cages to eliminate sun, star and other light clues. Despite the lack of visual clues, the robins were observed hopping in the correct migratory direction.As an additional refinement to the test, a Helmholtz coil was placed around the covered cages. The coil allowed the researchers to shift the direction of the earth's magnetic field. When the direction of the magnetic field was changed, the robins changed their hopping direction.]The Magnetic CompassAnother German team did research with the European Robin in the early 1960s. In their tests, robins in a migratory mood were placed in covered cages to eliminate sun, star and other light clues. Despite the lack of visual clues, the robins were observed hopping in the correct migratory direction.As an additional refinement to the test, a Helmholtz coil was placed around the covered cages. The coil allowed the researchers to shift the direction of the earth's magnetic field. When the direction of the magnetic field was changed, the robins changed their hopping direction.
Quote from: cheryl j on 23/11/2013 20:37:50Quote from: DonQuichotte on 23/11/2013 20:05:31Answer my question .How do those acquired traits , due to famine, war traumas , holocaust, tragic events ...get passed on to the next generations, and beyond ?Because those extreme and long lasting events have physiological effects on the human body, effects like lack of nutrition, exposure to the elements, injury and inflammation, chronic exposure to stress hormones like cortisol. It doesn't mean a memory of the events of WWII become encoded in the genes.
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 23/11/2013 20:05:31Answer my question .How do those acquired traits , due to famine, war traumas , holocaust, tragic events ...get passed on to the next generations, and beyond ?Because those extreme and long lasting events have physiological effects on the human body, effects like lack of nutrition, exposure to the elements, injury and inflammation, chronic exposure to stress hormones like cortisol. It doesn't mean a memory of the events of WWII become encoded in the genes.
... physics and chemistry alone are just a single part of the whole pic = that's a fact , no "immaterial of the gaps " : materialism is the one in fact that 's not only a kind of a promissory messianism ,in the sense that materialist science will be able to explain "everything =nothing " in the future ,just in terms of physics and chemistry thus, but materialism is also the one using its "materialism of the gaps " by trying to explain consciousness ,for example,not to mention evolution, life and the rest , just in terms of physics and chemistry , simply because materialism cannot account for consciousness or the mental that's irreducible to the physical .