[iko (OP)]

Vitamin D As Treatment

How much vitamin D should one take if they have cancer? We don't know as the research is far from complete. Although vitamin D may help, it should only be taken in addition to standard cancer treatment. It should not be considered a first, or only, treatment but used in addition to regular chemotherapy or surgery. Oncologists and surgeons work miracles every day. Remember, vitamin D may be toxic in overdose, although one expert recently said, "worrying about vitamin D toxicity is like worrying about drowning when you are dying of thirst". That said, many people think "if a little is good then a lot is better". This is definitely not true about vitamin D.

http://www.vitamindcouncil.com/cancerMain.shtml

...in the meantime, waiting for scientific confirmation, a little bit of 'cod' every day should work just fine. []
Take care

ikod

[neilep]

Enrico Incarbone MD
(Lucky father of an ALL survivor)


ALL: Acute Lymphoblastic Leukemia (common type: 65-75% alive after 5 years)


To support this one I started a special
"Cod Liver Oil" topic in Complementary Medicine.

You are kindly invited to read and discuss both topics.

iko


Key words: leukemia nutrition vitamin cod liver oil

IKO...I just want to congratulate you on this wonderful thread you have going
 here also my heart felt wishes and joy sent to you for the success of your childs
 survival....may I ask....son ?......daughter ?

Being a daddy of four I can only imagine what you, your child, your family  have been through.

We all take cod liver oil every day...and garlic oil too...I think it does me good !!

What is your opinion on the other fish oils ?..salmon ?...mackerel ?

Hugs the IKO..YAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY !!

[neilep]

Ahi, Ahi, Ahi, Neilepus! 

http://www.kohlchildrensmuseum.org/images/content/pagebuilder/10605.jpg

You missed my 'story' through hundreds of lines...
I would suggest to clean your scanner lenses!
Here we go:

My problem is that - sitting here in front of my PC - I am not able to give 'cod' every day to all the leukemic children in the world. I can only manage to remind my 'little' boy (actually he grew up much taller than his older brother) to take his cod in the evening.
More than seven years have past for our family, and eighteen years from the Shanghai report:
it's just about time to move and tell people around.
Thanks to search engines and this www (what-women-want?).
Anyway, I'm not too pessimistic about it.
I think I can make it, and I will succeed in the end.

Roby was 13 in '99, now he is a mature young adult
and studies at the Polytechnic to become an aircraft
engineer and move to Los Angeles...he likes it there!
He grew up taller than his older brother Marco: our
nurses and doctors here at Children's Hospital were
just fantastic.

Thanks for appreciating my efforts and for your support,
but...what do you think about the comparison 'doctors
versus engineers' at the very beginning of the topic,
my novel-essay entitled "The Shanghai report"?

ikodcentrate again!

Take your time...I'll keep in touch.

Thank EWe Iko Sir..
I will need to take time to read and hopefully understand
your thread of cod liver luff !!

In the mean time...lets hope some passing cod liver specialists
dive in and post some comments too..YAYYYYYYYYYY !!

[iko (OP)]

I meant to discuss about Evidence Based Medicine or Patient Centered Decisions...with some engineer!

It's about whether to strongly and officially recommend a nontoxic nutrient when data to prove its efficacy are still unconfirmed.
In the case of a disease of unknown cause and poor treatment results (2/3)...unsatisfactory results, or 'suboptimal' if you prefer.

It's Philosophy of Science and practical medicine altogether

ikod  [^]   

We should ask him...

Hyppocrates

 

[iko (OP)]

(...a previous post about an alternative treatment for human leukemia has been removed by the Author.)  []


Pure Healing.

It may sound fascinating, but it's just 2words.
Here we are looking for scientific evidence to help
improving today's standard treatments for leukemia.
This topic addresses the use of cod liver oil as a
nutritional supplement, based on weak evidence from
an old (Shanghai-1988) positive epidemiological report.
We are not in a position to suggest any 'new' alternative
and empirical treatment replacing what we have today.
No way. You can find other details reading our previous posts.
I read your website: I must say that the 2 testimonials
concerning leukemia aren't impressive or special cases
(previously treated by orthodox medicine, neither spontaneous
remissions of leukemia would fit).
Over the years positive alternative treatment results have been
reported in medical literature by western doctors.
A recent study concerns green tea in leukemia/lymphoma patients
(Mayo Clin. Rochester).

Regards,

iko

[iko (OP)]

In the mean time...lets hope some passing cod liver specialists
dive in and post some comments too..YAYYYYYYYYYY !!

http://www.whitesharktrust.org/assistant/media/galleryimages/2005/dec2005/codfather.jpg

I'm afraid that 'codfathers'
(are they still alive anywhere?)
don't seem to hang around this
NKS Forum!

ikod

[Zoey]

This discussion should not meet the same fate as the Shanghai Report.
Zoey

[iko (OP)]

Reading an 'ancient' paper
from Zoey (thanks!)... I found
one of the best cod-citations:

"Cod liver oil is in the forefront of children's remedies.

For long it has been struggling against the scepticism of exact science"

Rosenstern:  Berl. klin. Wchuschr. 47;822, 1910.
 

from:  "The history of cod liver oil as a remedy"
          Ruth A. Guy  M.D.
          Dept. of Pediatrics, Yale University School of Medicine
          Am. J. of diseases of children    26; 112-116, 1923.

[Zoey]

 That's a great quote. I will put it on the wall beneath the picture of my codfather!

Zoey

[Zoey]

   
        THE CODFATHER
         



   

[iko (OP)]

Historical notes from the same
'ancient' paper (Zoey's copy):



...The introduction of cod liver oil into France, which came a few years later than in Germany, is described by Trousseau (10):

   
   The manner in which M. Bretonneau, of Tours, was induced to give the oil in this disease deserves notice.
He had treated the rachitic child of a rich Dutch merchant with preparations of iodine and other means, for some time, without success.
He was then told by the father that the elder children had previously suffered under the same malady, and had been cured by the cod liver oil, which, in Holland, was a popular remedy.
 Bretonneau gave the same substance to his young patient, and was much struck with the very rapid and successful result which followed.
He commenced making researches with it on other patients, and it was only then that he learnt for the first time what had been written by the German authors on this subject.
He has since given it extensively in rachitis, with the happiest results.
This fact was communicated to the Societe de Medicine de Paris, in 1837, by M. Roche.

  10.   Trousseau:   Clinical Medicine,  Philadelphia  2: 734, 1882.

from:  "The history of cod liver oil as a remedy"
          Ruth A. Guy  M.D.
          Dept. of Pediatrics, Yale University School of Medicine
          Am. J. of diseases of children    26; 112-116, 1923.

[Zoey]

Obviously, it would not be just "vitamin A" or just "vitamin D" or any single component of cod liver oil, but how they were working together to give the results seen in the Shanghai Report. So where can you direct me to look for more information that will be relevant to this discussion? What questions should I be asking, where should I be looking? If there was a report little noticed in Shanghai, there may well be one elsewhere of a similar nature. There are a few places that come to mind for searching.
Zoey

[iko (OP)]

Obviously, it would not be just "vitamin A" or just "vitamin D" or any single component of cod liver oil, but how they were working together to give the results seen in the Shanghai Report. So where can you direct me to look for more information that will be relevant to this discussion? What questions should I be asking, where should I be looking? If there was a report little noticed in Shanghai, there may well be one elsewhere of a similar nature. There are a few places that come to mind for searching.
Zoey

I assumed that the 1988 findings are pretty unique.
I was lucky to spot them in a bulk of scientific mess.
It would be exciting to snag a case report with 'cod' in leukemia (I have an unpublished one) but still...
it would not be statistically significant.  Practically useless.

I would like to discuss the most effective way to communicate the 'CLO in leukemia' message to parents and patients, to make 'weak evidence' less neglected, stressing the point of a safe and 'historically tested' nutrient.
Western medicine seems unfortunately stuck in a sort of endless loop between the lack of interest in the natural product and the crucial need to organize long and expensive controlled clinical trials.
A double-blind controlled clinical trial for 'cod' would not be ethical, in my personal opinion.
The 'Placebo Kids' could sue for malpractice, and they could be hundreds.
It would be stupid, basically.

Over the years, properly informed patients will make themselves possible statistical  analysis by following or not this recommendation,
just like aircrafts owners did with red or blue fluid for the hydraulic system.
Following this path, we would be 'only' twenty years late.

In the meantime, thanks to your contribution, we could add little pieces to the puzzle,
just to keep this agonizing topic alive.
Scared parents will find enough information, I hope.

We'll never solve this problem in our libraries.
I really did appreciate the 1923 article and I want to report other bits in this topic.
It gives you a clear picture of the ups and downs of popular remedies in medical literature (and knowledge).
I have to report of another 'missing link': vitamin D deficiency and myelofibrosis (a pre-leukemia condition).
Just for the fun of it.

ikod

Look at this young researcher on the right...
his nephew is gonna solve the mystery.
Maybe.

http://www.uwosh.edu/science_outreach/kid%20microscope.jpg

 

[Zoey]

But wait! Have you checked all the medical libraries in the world? There may be other "Shanhai Reports" on the shelves and maybe others interested in this topic.
 There is one who came to mind  who may well be interested. That is Dr. Matti Tolonen in Finland. I read one of his books on vitamns a few years ago. He was an advisor to the WHO. He turned his focus to nutritional medicine in the 1980s so may not have seen the report. I think he might be interested in it though. I have thought about contacting him because of some of his writing on B12.  Here's a link to a page about him. My sense is he would be interested in COL and leukemia.
Zoey
http://www.biovita.fi/english/tolonen.html

[iko (OP)]

Thank you Zoey,

There is one who came to mind  who may well be interested. That is Dr. Matti Tolonen in Finland. I read one of his books on vitamns a few years ago. He was an advisor to the WHO. He turned his focus to nutritional medicine in the 1980s so may not have seen the report.

Good idea.
Many nutrition experts may have missed the Shanghai report.
It was hidden in a widely known journal of oncology, but
hematologists have their specialized leukemia journals.
Cod liver oil was not even cited in the title...and last
but not least, reporting the text-string:
 "containing Vitamins A and D" and never "vitamin D" in the
abstract...they made it unreachable by a simple research
through PubMed with "leukemia and vitamin D".
What a shame.
Even the great TT. Timonen missed it (1999 pers.comm.)
I'll write to Matti Tolonen.
Thanks for your suggestion
Take care

ikod

[Zoey]

Joke or not,
 one by one may be the most effective way to proceed.  Are you going to contact him? Maybe I should be searching on who is doing research in vitamin COL. It is difficult to search "research" "cod liver oil" as it returns the many sites that quote the word "research" to sell their nutritonal products which include "cod liver oil."
"I would like to discuss the most effective way to communicate the 'CLO in leukemia' message to parents and patients, to make 'weak evidence' less neglected, stressing the point of a safe and 'historically tested' nutrient.
Western medicine seems unfortunately stuck in a sort of endless loop between the lack of interest in the natural product and the crucial need to organize long and expensive controlled clinical trials."
   Discuss the first statement. What are possibilities [and they do exisit] to "communicate the 'CLO in leukemia' message to parents and patients" ?
 Why not an article that describes why the Shanghai Report is significant? Most of the information is here already in your posts?
 Another possibility is to contact some of the larger producers of COL and encourage more research [they may have the funds to do this]. 
   A researcher is turning up in my google travels tonight. The name is  S Halabi and I'm trying to locate this person who has done clinical studies on the use of fish oil in cancer\leukemia. It is certainly possible this scientist never saw the Shanghai Report and would be very interested in it. This is the report from my search:
2004 -- Pubmed # 15241836 -- Burns CP, Halabi S, Clamon G, Kaplan E, Hohl RJ, Atkins JN, Schwartz MA, Wagner BA, Paskett E. Phase II study of high-dose fish oil capsules for patients with cancer-related cachexia.  Cancer.  2004 Jul 15;101(2):370-8.
 Looking up one of these researchers led to this link:
http://biostat.duke.edu/modules/dukefaculty/viewDetails.php?d=halab001&t=1
 Another possible interested researcher?
Zoey
   

[Zoey]

If she isn't interested, she may know who would  have an interet in this.
Zoey

[iko (OP)]

  A researcher is turning up in my google travels tonight. The name is  S Halabi and I'm trying to locate this person who has done clinical studies on the use of fish oil in cancer\leukemia. It is certainly possible this scientist never saw the Shanghai Report and would be very interested in it. This is the report from my search:
2004 -- Pubmed # 15241836 -- Burns CP, Halabi S, Clamon G, Kaplan E, Hohl RJ, Atkins JN, Schwartz MA, Wagner BA, Paskett E. Phase II study of high-dose fish oil capsules for patients with cancer-related cachexia.  Cancer.  2004 Jul 15;101(2):370-8.
 Looking up one of these researchers led to this link:
http://biostat.duke.edu/modules/dukefaculty/viewDetails.php?d=halab001&t=1

I would leave this direction:  it's a bit out of the way.
No vitamin D, just concentrated omega-3. Old story.
I would use it in any cancer patient as anti-cachexia.
I fortunately (for me) do not have patients like those.

I'll give Finland a second chance as you suggested.
Dr. Timonen was not impressed in 1999...he actually
wished me all the best for my little boy, and was
very busy in other studies, I assume.
Let's try Dr. Matti Tolonen.
I realized that you give a totally different 'weight'
to the Shanghai report statistical data whether you
have a sick relative or not.

ikod

[Zoey]

   "Good wishes" are not what is needed. There needs to be some open debate and inquirey on the subject of using COL in ALL, prevention or during treatment. One other physician\researcher comes to mind as well. I have mentioned her before but will recheck before posting anything on her. I may look up the addresses for the major COL suppliers and to ask who is doing, or interested in doing research on COL. More people who can act on this issue need to be drawn into this discussion. Perhaps we should rent a plane that can pull a banner displaying the codfather and his message. If that fails, maybe a message in an empty [cod liver oil] bottle will get some attention to this subject.  There are other options, but we can only pull one trick out of our magic hats at one time.
Zoey

[iko (OP)]

   "Good wishes" are not what is needed. There needs to be some open debate and inquirey on the subject of using COL in ALL, prevention or during treatment. One other physician\researcher comes to mind as well. I have mentioned her before but will recheck before posting anything on her. I may look up the addresses for the major COL suppliers and to ask who is doing, or interested in doing research on COL. More people who can act on this issue need to be drawn into this discussion. Perhaps we should rent a plane that can pull a banner displaying the codfather and his message. If that fails, maybe a message in an empty [cod liver oil] bottle will get some attention to this subject.  There are other options, but we can only pull one trick out of our magic hats at one time.
Zoey

Wow! I like the plane pulling the banner: "Cod 4Kids!"
Seriously, no prevention for now, but HELP in a standard treatment that is actually stalling at 75% survival rate in the last 5-10 years. I think we have to start from here.
Did you check the survival diagram? Unfortunately I'm not able to stick the complete image, but just the link.
I still have to finish the final conclusions (work on progress) and hypothesis for the future (results).
While I complete this, please take any bit & piece you want, put them in any form and send them anywhere if you have an idea.  I feel there are few people interested in this topic.

ikod

http://images.inmagine.com/168nwm/photodisc/pdil034/pdil034040.jpg