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In this manifesto, under point 7, they claim:"Most importantly, [quantum mechanics] explicitly introduces the mind into its basic conceptual structure since it was found that particles being observed and the observer--the physicist and the method used --are linked. According to one interpretation of QM, this phenomenon implies that the consciousness of the observer is vital to the existence of the physical events being observed and the mental events can affect the physical world."I object to this interpretation. As far as I know there is no experiment that explicitly shows the dependence of the physicist's thoughts. That a physical system was prepared in a particular way and that a measurement or interaction took place is sufficient to produce experimental results testing/showing QM effects. Information does not need to be understood by anyone (anything) to be transferred or manipulated. If I set up an experiment to be performed by an automated program, and the data saved, the results would be the same as if I saw them in real time, tomorrow or a year from now. Would the experiment care if I misunderstood the data?Note, I am open to ideas that don't conform to strict materialism, but this argument doesn't pass much scrutiny.
Materialism must be kicked out of science indeed without mercy , regret or hesitation :http://opensciences.org/about/manifesto-for-a-post-materialist-science
Incompetent. We all recognise that what we see around us may not be the whole story - it could be entirely virtual. However, shoving consciousness somewhere else doesn't add anything to an explanation of it at all. You still end up with something somewhere else which defies explanation in the self same way as it does for materialists.
Quote from: Plato on 03/10/2014 18:35:56Materialism must be kicked out of science indeed without mercy , regret or hesitation : newbielink:http://opensciences.org/about/manifesto-for-a-post-materialist-science [nonactive]I dare say that if we follow this illogical logic, none of the material tests using material devices will serve us as experimental proofs. Such nonsense leaves us with nothing to form any conclusions about our supposed reality. As such, leaving us with nothing to trust but our personal imaginations and opening the door to every crackpot preaching about fairies and extraterrestrials. Utter nonsense!!!!!!!!!!
Materialism must be kicked out of science indeed without mercy , regret or hesitation : newbielink:http://opensciences.org/about/manifesto-for-a-post-materialist-science [nonactive]
Quote from: Ethos_ on 03/10/2014 19:39:55Quote from: Plato on 03/10/2014 18:35:56Materialism must be kicked out of science indeed without mercy , regret or hesitation :http://opensciences.org/about/manifesto-for-a-post-materialist-scienceI dare say that if we follow this illogical logic, none of the material tests using material devices will serve us as experimental proofs. Such nonsense leaves us with nothing to form any conclusions about our supposed reality. As such, leaving us with nothing to trust but our personal imaginations and opening the door to every crackpot preaching about fairies and extraterrestrials. Utter nonsense!!!!!!!!!!Well, sir :If you carefully read that manifesto, you would notice that it says clearly that the previous scientific advances will not be abandoned of course , needless to say , and that the post-materialistic science admits that reality is made up of both matter and mind : matter-mind in fact .Mind that's irreducible to matter thus .
Quote from: Plato on 03/10/2014 18:35:56Materialism must be kicked out of science indeed without mercy , regret or hesitation :http://opensciences.org/about/manifesto-for-a-post-materialist-scienceI dare say that if we follow this illogical logic, none of the material tests using material devices will serve us as experimental proofs. Such nonsense leaves us with nothing to form any conclusions about our supposed reality. As such, leaving us with nothing to trust but our personal imaginations and opening the door to every crackpot preaching about fairies and extraterrestrials. Utter nonsense!!!!!!!!!!
Quote from: Plato on 03/10/2014 19:48:26Quote from: Ethos_ on 03/10/2014 19:39:55Quote from: Plato on 03/10/2014 18:35:56Materialism must be kicked out of science indeed without mercy , regret or hesitation : newbielink:http://opensciences.org/about/manifesto-for-a-post-materialist-science [nonactive]I dare say that if we follow this illogical logic, none of the material tests using material devices will serve us as experimental proofs. Such nonsense leaves us with nothing to form any conclusions about our supposed reality. As such, leaving us with nothing to trust but our personal imaginations and opening the door to every crackpot preaching about fairies and extraterrestrials. Utter nonsense!!!!!!!!!!Well, sir :If you carefully read that manifesto, you would notice that it says clearly that the previous scientific advances will not be abandoned of course , needless to say , and that the post-materialistic science admits that reality is made up of both matter and mind : matter-mind in fact .Mind that's irreducible to matter thus .I could be mistaken but, you remind me of a long absent member here at TNS. He went by the name of DonQuichotte if I remember correctly? Could I "thus" be right dear sir? :
Quote from: Ethos_ on 03/10/2014 19:39:55Quote from: Plato on 03/10/2014 18:35:56Materialism must be kicked out of science indeed without mercy , regret or hesitation : newbielink:http://opensciences.org/about/manifesto-for-a-post-materialist-science [nonactive]I dare say that if we follow this illogical logic, none of the material tests using material devices will serve us as experimental proofs. Such nonsense leaves us with nothing to form any conclusions about our supposed reality. As such, leaving us with nothing to trust but our personal imaginations and opening the door to every crackpot preaching about fairies and extraterrestrials. Utter nonsense!!!!!!!!!!Well, sir :If you carefully read that manifesto, you would notice that it says clearly that the previous scientific advances will not be abandoned of course , needless to say , and that the post-materialistic science admits that reality is made up of both matter and mind : matter-mind in fact .Mind that's irreducible to matter thus .
Quote from: David Cooper on 03/10/2014 18:56:28Incompetent. We all recognise that what we see around us may not be the whole story - it could be entirely virtual. However, shoving consciousness somewhere else doesn't add anything to an explanation of it at all. You still end up with something somewhere else which defies explanation in the self same way as it does for materialists.Well, sir :That manifesto referred to many consciousness studies from the non-materialist "Camp" .You should first try to look at the evidence there , instead of a -priori dismissing it out of hand .
Quote from: Plato on 03/10/2014 19:42:24Quote from: David Cooper on 03/10/2014 18:56:28Incompetent. We all recognise that what we see around us may not be the whole story - it could be entirely virtual. However, shoving consciousness somewhere else doesn't add anything to an explanation of it at all. You still end up with something somewhere else which defies explanation in the self same way as it does for materialists.Well, sir :That manifesto referred to many consciousness studies from the non-materialist "Camp" .You should first try to look at the evidence there , instead of a -priori dismissing it out of hand . We have gone over all this quackers stuff before on this forum, so I'm not merely dismissing it out of hand. Tell me how you imagine it gets past the problem of how sentience can make itself known to the information system of the brain. newbielink:http://www.magicschoolbook.com/consciousness.html [nonactive]. Until you can do that, all you have to offer is a very long string of quacks.
Quantum mechanics, however, supersedes Newtonian mechanics and undermines the classical assumption of materialism.
I am just a messenger , sir .Read that manifesto carefully and the work of those scientists who signed it .Thanks .
author=alancalverd link=topic=52526.msg441651#msg441651 date=1412373957]More of a fart than a bombshell.
QuoteQuantum mechanics, however, supersedes Newtonian mechanics and undermines the classical assumption of materialism.Crap. It underpins Newtonian mechanics.
The reason new ideas are accepted is because they make sense. They only make sense if, when projected to the everyday scale, they predict what we actually see. Hence quantum mechanics allows atoms to be stable and finite, and is thus consistent with the fact that a rock is a rock; and relativistic equations approximate to classical mechanics at low speeds whilst explaining a number of observations that are not consistent with a simpler model of the universe.
The rest of the article seems to drivel on about consciousness without defining it or examining any aspect of what it does, and is therefore irrelevant to science.
author=David Cooper link=topic=52526.msg441674#msg441674 date=1412444602]Quote from: Plato on 03/10/2014 21:23:28I am just a messenger , sir .Read that manifesto carefully and the work of those scientists who signed it .Thanks .Here's some reading for you to save everyone else from ploughing this well-ploughed field again:-http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=48746.0A 70 page thread for you sir! Enjoy!
Human Consciousness And The End of Materialism : http://harmoniaphilosophica.wordpress.com/2011/05/17/human-consciousness-and-the-end-of-2jszrulazj6wq-58/