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There is thus no problem at all : all interpretations of QM have been just imaginary attempts to solve the imaginary interpretation problem in QM thus , just delusions based on illusions lol .
Standard or mainstream neuroscience says that consciousness vanishes whenever we go to sleep and comes back whenever we wake up , the contemplative cognitive science says otherwise : see above .
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 06/01/2015 17:27:52Standard or mainstream neuroscience says that consciousness vanishes whenever we go to sleep and comes back whenever we wake up , the contemplative cognitive science says otherwise : see above .Well, it depends on how you are defining consciousness or what level of consciousness you are referring to, lol.
Philosopher John Searle agrees: “Consciousness consists of inner, qualitative, subjective states and processes of sentience or awareness. Consciousness, so defined, begins when we wake in the morning from a dreamless sleep and continues until we fall asleep again, die, go into a coma, or otherwise become ‘unconscious.’”From the Indian and Tibetan contemplative perspectives, however, these descriptions are inaccurate.Although object-directed consciousness becomes progressively less and less as we move from waking or dreaming into deep and dreamless sleep, awareness or sentience continues. For Yoga and Vedānta, whereas dreaming is a form of object-directed consciousness—the objects in dreams being mental images—dreamless sleep is a mode of consciousness without an object. Similarly, according to Tibetan Buddhism, deep sleep is a state of “subtle consciousness” without sensory or cognitive content, and it’s the basis upon which dreaming and waking consciousness arise.
Excerpt from the same above mentioned book and chapter : Quote : " REMEMBERING IN SLEEP:Although Yoga and Vedānta share the view that deep sleep is a state of consciousness, they differ in their conceptions of what happens to the mind in deep and dreamless sleep.According to Yoga, deep sleep is one of the changing states of the inner mental sense, so cognitive activity, particularly the formation of memories, continues. According to Vedānta, however, the inner mental sense shuts down entirely in deep sleep and reactivates upon awakening. How does this difference between Yoga and Vedānta look from the perspective of Western sleep science?.If we set aside the question of consciousness in deep sleep and restrict the question to whether memory processes are active, the answer from science is unequivocal: memory processes are highly active in slow-wave sleep. Evidence from psychology and neuroscience clearly shows that slow-wave sleep promotes the formation of stable memories of events that were consciously experienced earlier when awake.One recent experiment took advantage of the strong effect of smell on memory—the way that particular smells can trigger vivid memories, the most famous example being Proust’s description of the way the smell and taste of a madeleine dipped in tea brought back to life his narrator’s long-forgotten childhood world in the French village of Combray. In the experiment, the subjects learned locations in a spatial memory task while being exposed to the scent of roses. The scent was presented again whilethe subjects were in slow-wave sleep that night. Compared to the control condition where the scent wasn’t presented again during sleep, the presentation during slow-wave sleep resulted in significantly improved recall of the locations in the task on the following day.
In addition, the presentation of the scent during sleep resulted in significant activation in the hippocampus, a subcortical structure known to be crucial for the formation and recall of memories for experienced events.This study built on other ones showing that the same neural networks in the hippocampus that are activated in the acquisition of new memories during waking life are reactivated in slow-wave sleep
For example, studies in rats have shown that when they learn their way in a maze, neurons in the hippocampus that fire in response to specific places—so-called hippocampal place cells—fire in the same order during subsequent slow-wave sleep, a phenomenon known as “hippocampal replay.”......(rest of excerpt deleted but relevant)
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 05/01/2015 21:48:01It dépends on how one (mis ) interprets that through one's own a-priori held world view that does shape one's own consciousness and behavior , ironically enough lol : you're talking from the materialist point of view thus , by basing all your arguments and conclusions on that major false materialistic premise, in the sense that consciousness and the mind +their memories and the rest are just brain activity ,for example, and hence memory is stored in the brain ....And you're talking from the theist point of view, basing all of your arguments and conclusions on the untestable and scientifically unsubstantiated belief in souls. Your "indirect empirical evidence" is not actually any evidence at all, but simply complaints about what you feel is not adequately explained by science, and utter disregard for everything that is.
It dépends on how one (mis ) interprets that through one's own a-priori held world view that does shape one's own consciousness and behavior , ironically enough lol : you're talking from the materialist point of view thus , by basing all your arguments and conclusions on that major false materialistic premise, in the sense that consciousness and the mind +their memories and the rest are just brain activity ,for example, and hence memory is stored in the brain ....
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 06/01/2015 17:57:51There is thus no problem at all : all interpretations of QM have been just imaginary attempts to solve the imaginary interpretation problem in QM thus , just delusions based on illusions lol .Thyat's it. Just a complicated way of saying what I said: you can't derive quantum mechanics from classical mechanics, but you can derive classical mechanics from quantum mechanics. The mystery, problem, call it what you will, is a result of starting from the wrong end of the microscope.
author=cheryl j link=topic=52526.msg448148#msg448148 date=1420641707]Quote from: DonQuichotte on 05/01/2015 17:43:25Philosopher John Searle agrees: “Consciousness consists of inner, qualitative, subjective states and processes of sentience or awareness. Consciousness, so defined, begins when we wake in the morning from a dreamless sleep and continues until we fall asleep again, die, go into a coma, or otherwise become ‘unconscious.’”From the Indian and Tibetan contemplative perspectives, however, these descriptions are inaccurate.Although object-directed consciousness becomes progressively less and less as we move from waking or dreaming into deep and dreamless sleep, awareness or sentience continues. For Yoga and Vedānta, whereas dreaming is a form of object-directed consciousness—the objects in dreams being mental images—dreamless sleep is a mode of consciousness without an object. Similarly, according to Tibetan Buddhism, deep sleep is a state of “subtle consciousness” without sensory or cognitive content, and it’s the basis upon which dreaming and waking consciousness arise.I agree with dlorde's comment about cherry picking comparisons between ancient areas of knowledge and science.
But as far as simply describing the experience of sleep for most people, I don't see the huge discrepancy that Don is claiming exists. They both say that people become less conscious of their surroundings, and in dreamless sleep there is a kind of minimal consciousness of any sensory information, internal imaginings, or other "thing" being attended to.
It just raises more doubts about the idea of immaterial consciousness itself, that without external and internal sensation and things to be conscious of, or think about, consciousness is tenuous, if it doesn't entirely vanish.
author=cheryl j link=topic=52526.msg448162#msg448162 date=1420650708]Quote from: DonQuichotte on 06/01/2015 18:50:00Excerpt from the same above mentioned book and chapter : Quote : " REMEMBERING IN SLEEP:Although Yoga and Vedānta share the view that deep sleep is a state of consciousness, they differ in their conceptions of what happens to the mind in deep and dreamless sleep.According to Yoga, deep sleep is one of the changing states of the inner mental sense, so cognitive activity, particularly the formation of memories, continues. According to Vedānta, however, the inner mental sense shuts down entirely in deep sleep and reactivates upon awakening. How does this difference between Yoga and Vedānta look from the perspective of Western sleep science?.If we set aside the question of consciousness in deep sleep and restrict the question to whether memory processes are active, the answer from science is unequivocal: memory processes are highly active in slow-wave sleep. Evidence from psychology and neuroscience clearly shows that slow-wave sleep promotes the formation of stable memories of events that were consciously experienced earlier when awake.One recent experiment took advantage of the strong effect of smell on memory—the way that particular smells can trigger vivid memories, the most famous example being Proust’s description of the way the smell and taste of a madeleine dipped in tea brought back to life his narrator’s long-forgotten childhood world in the French village of Combray. In the experiment, the subjects learned locations in a spatial memory task while being exposed to the scent of roses. The scent was presented again whilethe subjects were in slow-wave sleep that night. Compared to the control condition where the scent wasn’t presented again during sleep, the presentation during slow-wave sleep resulted in significantly improved recall of the locations in the task on the following day. Interesting experiment. As I said, a sleeping person is not cut off from sensory monitoring or subconscious processing. These results make more sense from a neurological point of view, than with your immaterial brain theory.
QuoteIn addition, the presentation of the scent during sleep resulted in significant activation in the hippocampus, a subcortical structure known to be crucial for the formation and recall of memories for experienced events.This study built on other ones showing that the same neural networks in the hippocampus that are activated in the acquisition of new memories during waking life are reactivated in slow-wave sleepAnd what does this tell you?
Quote For example, studies in rats have shown that when they learn their way in a maze, neurons in the hippocampus that fire in response to specific places—so-called hippocampal place cells—fire in the same order during subsequent slow-wave sleep, a phenomenon known as “hippocampal replay.”......(rest of excerpt deleted but relevant) I don't have time to fact check all of this. But everything in the excerpt looks like neurological explanations for experiences described in Eastern practices. It's not a Chris Carter-like antagonistic or argumentative attempt to prove that neuroscience is some how all wrong. But if this helps your understanding of things, I'm delighted.
Sleep is a fascinating topic, but I would be wary of cherry-picking and creatively interpreting the introspective analyses of Eastern meditative traditions for their similarity to knowledge obtained from sleep research and neuroscience. When intelligent people think and introspect about such phenomena they may come up with close or analogous descriptions to what controlled experiment tells us, or they may not - as is conceded in the posted excerpts. These traditions may have interesting suggestions for the basis of testable hypotheses, but although some apparent correlations with contemporary science may be interesting, they are no guide to the reliability or utility of the traditions or their techniques in understanding what is occurring during sleep. For example, the same kind of exercise can be done comparing a variety of creation myths with cosmology (e.g. big bang theory, planetary formation, etc.) and, with some flexible interpretation, some seemingly strong correlations can be made with modern theory. However, this kind of flexible interpretation with informed hindsight is an ideal context for the influence of confirmation bias. Caution is advised - look out for interpretive 'tells' such as, 'what they are saying is...', 'what they mean is...', 'this is analogous to...', 'this correlates with...', and so-on. These should be viewed with a critical eye.
author=cheryl j link=topic=52526.msg448181#msg448181 date=1420667226]What point do you want addressed. i don't have a problem with meditation, buddhist philosophical practices. The dalai Lama isn't hostile towards neuroscience and invites scientists to come and study meditating monks.
Vegetative comas and end stage Alzheimers are also forms of "consciousness without content". I'm not sure I'd want to spend eternity in that state, whether it feels all "subtle" or not. But that's just my preference.
Vegetative patients ,for example, can respond to certain commands or instructions of scientists when asked to imagine playing tennis or doing some other activity ,and hence scientists see that the corresponding neural correlates get activated exactly like in the case of healthy patients : that's no consciousness without content .
Who is hostile to neuroscience anyway ? The latter is still in its primitive or infancy stage ,relatively speaking , despite the bombastic talk of mainstream neuroscience .We don't even know nearly enough regarding the brain itself, let alone regarding consciousness, not to mention that we don't know much about the unconscious or subconscious and its role in waking and sleep states either .
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 08/01/2015 18:18:35Vegetative patients ,for example, can respond to certain commands or instructions of scientists when asked to imagine playing tennis or doing some other activity ,and hence scientists see that the corresponding neural correlates get activated exactly like in the case of healthy patients : that's no consciousness without content .You're describing 'Locked-in Syndrome', a non-vegetative state. Around 60% vegetative patients are in PVS (Persistent Vegetative State) and show no signs of consciousness (abnormal EEG, no characteristic P3 wave, etc), typically due to permanent damage to the brainstem. The other 40% are known as MCS (Minimally Conscious State), and may show some correlates of consciousness, and may recover to varying degrees.Vegetative patients are a subset of those in a coma, and it is a small number of non-vegetative coma patients that have Locked-in Syndrome (effectively a complete paralysis of voluntary movement but with a full repertoire of conscious mental states). These are the patients who can communicate by imagining activities. These patients may have been misdiagnosed as vegetative, but turn out not to be so.
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 08/01/2015 18:18:35Who is hostile to neuroscience anyway ? The latter is still in its primitive or infancy stage ,relatively speaking , despite the bombastic talk of mainstream neuroscience .We don't even know nearly enough regarding the brain itself, let alone regarding consciousness, not to mention that we don't know much about the unconscious or subconscious and its role in waking and sleep states either .How can you be so sure that we "don't know that much about" consciousness? In stead of jumping from one general theory to another that purports to "explain everything" in one full swoop, consider this option: Take one specific area of consciousness or mental activity that interests you - episodic memory, or working memory, or visual perception and its qualia, or dreams, or attention, or language, one type of skill or ability like planning, or search/recognition -whatever interests you. Take a few weeks to research it, from as many different angles or sources as you can, but try to stay with that more narrow topic. I think you'll find that a lot more is known than you expected, in much greater detail than you imagined, and with unexpected associations to other things. If you did that, I think you'd find that it isn't all "bombastic talk."
Ok, but what makes you so sure about those 60 % vegetative patients who seem to show no signs of consciousness ? They might experience some undetected yet minimal forms of consciousness too , who knows ?
Vegetative patients may be more conscious of the world than we think:
P.S.: In another context , A cousin of mine who was healthy and then pronounced dead , was almost buried 3 times .Every time they tried to bury the poor lad , i was told , ( He lives in another country far away from mine ) , he would show signs of life at almost the last moment .He even started to scream once , i was told , when they were ready to put his coffin into the grave .
Besides, looking for the mind and consciousness , memories ....in the brain , equating them with or reducing them to the physical activity of the brain is an absurd and a futile dead -end street or attempt , since consciousness and the mind +their related processes are neither in the brain , neither brain activity , nor that they can emerge from it , to say the least thus .P.S.: What makes you think i haven't done your above "recommended" stuff ? and more .