[McKay (OP)]

Ok, so they work - using them, the house gains more heat energy taking less electric energy from the grid (or wherever), right? How much more?

[alancalverd]

Depends on the outside temperature, but I get about 3:1 from an airsource pump feeding a low temperature (30 degC) underfloor heating coil, and a bit less efficiency when heating the hot water tank (50 degC). Costwise it works out about the same as heating with gas or oil, but it's better than anything else for frost protection of a large open-plan area, where wallmounted radiators would just produce hotspots and electric underfloor heating would have required more mains supply capacity than was available - and cost 3 times as much to run!   

[evan_au]

is the fluid of a heat pump, just after compression, hotter than it could be if the same amount of electric energy was put directly to heating that fluid?

Yes, the refrigerant would contain more heat from the outside world than if you obtained it from an electrical heating element.

However, depending on the boiling temperature of the refrigerant, and temperature/pressure operating conditions of the airconditioner, the temperature of the refrigerant may not change significantly, but it might change from gas to liquid.

[SisGhidir]

McKay,

Don't know why these guys don't grasp your concept. In theory your idea could work, but in practice there seem to be some complications.

You're right that a decent household heat pump will deliver heat at a ratio of about 1:4 to electrical input. This heat is transferred from outside, and is replenished by environment heat (no going to 0K).

A decent power plant will run at an efficiency of about 60%. So (in theory) you could use 42% of the electricity generated (=25% of the original energy input) by the power plant to resupply it with enough heat to keep it running. And all that with 58% of the electricity for other uses. This is neither magic nor a perpetual motion machine. It's a power plant that uses environment heat as a "fuel" source and would be a very nice way of combatting global warming.

The main problem however is that (i) heat pumps work at low output temperatures and their efficiency decreases sharply when requested output temperature goes up, whereas (ii) power plants require high temperature output to be able to generate electricity efficiently. The output temperature problem is less one of environmental heat decreasing (could easily be tapped from stable underground sources) but of the coolants used to operate heat pumps and extra efforts required to increase the temperature differential between input and output.

If you could design the right heat pump, this could work. But that won't be all that easy...

Hope this makes sense,
Sis

[SisGhidir]

Just to nuance myself after thinking this over for another 10 minutes: designing the right heat pump would not just be difficult, it would be impossible. It would be an impossible carnot cycle and violate the 2nd law of thermodynamics...

Too bad.

[jccc]

Just to nuance myself after thinking this over for another 10 minutes: designing the right heat pump would not just be difficult, it would be impossible. It would be an impossible carnot cycle and violate the 2nd law of thermodynamics...

Too bad.

not bad at all.

the law stands, everywhere, any time.

[AL-azzeh Tareq]

I believe I have developed a system where green, renewable and free energy is possible, but before I go any further, let me introduce myself and list my credentials in order to substantiate my claims.
My Name is Tareq Al-Azzeh, I am a mechanical engineer with more than 17 years of electromechanical, Maintenance, Construction, and Management experience. Holder of
B.Sc. Degree in Applied Engineering major in Mechanical Engineering Minor Hydraulic and Thermal Machines from Amman University Collage for Applied Engineering (1992 –1997) I am a Member of Jordan Engineers Association and a member of Project
Management Institute PMI Working as Chief Engineer Movenpick Hotel and Resorts worked as MEP coordinator in China State Construction Engineering Corp. in Abu Dhabi, worked as MEP Coordinator in Emirates Falcon Electromechanical Co.LLC and worked as chief engineer in Oasis Hotel Casino Resort, and InterContinental Hotel

The system I have theorized, and it is at present just a theory, involves the unlimited potentials of the refrigeration cycle

The result, should my theory work as I expect, would be green, free and renewable energy. It would “capture” the wasted energy used during the cooling processes and harvest the condensate water for use elsewhere.

The first application of the theory is to use the cycle for heating and not for cooling, the process will still have a cooling effect

Using the simple cycle as a boiler for heating water instead of burning fuel; fuel burners for heating purposes should have been obsolete long time ago. It is my opinion is that the heat pumps (refrigeration cycle) has been used commercially less than 2% of its potentials. If 1% of the monies spent on other forms of energy are directed towards the development of my theory, the world would solve its energy problems and produce potable water as a byproduct.

That was a simplified application of the theory, a complicated, more detailed description of the theory and how it will produce electrical power, heating, cooling and water production for free is shown in the sketch below.

When my system is adopted it will change the world and the way of life of its inhabitants, its heating and cooling systems will change, it will become totally self sustainable, both now and in the future. Public transportation will cease using fossil fuels to run, instead they will use electric motors because electrical power will be more economic and readily available.

My theory is a revolution that will change almost everything thermodynamics, global warming, pollution, power production, heating, cooling, water production, agriculture and public transportation, the list is almost endless. This system is not consigned to the future, with a little funding and development, it is available now. I am dedicating my life to this theory.



Introduction
Green, free and renewable energy is a dream, and this dream is now closer to reality than ever. My theory will explain how that can be achieved. It is based on the refrigeration cycle which in my opinion should be more accurately called a heat pumping cycle.

The Theory
In a refrigeration cycle, the heat ejected to the environment is the sum of energy given to the refrigerant by the compressor plus the heat extracted in the evaporator. In lay mans terms, energy ejected into the environment will be at least 4 times more than the electrical energy which runs the compressor
Based on my theory, a system that will produce green free and renewable electrical power, cooling, heat and water at only maintenance and initial cost, is possible, hard to believe but if my theory hold out, possible.

Heat extraction -rejection cycle
1- Evaporator where the refrigerant will extract Heat =Qev
2- The compressor will compress the refrigerant to high pressure and high temperature this means it will give the refrigerant energy (heat) Qcom
3- The condenser will reject the heat to the environment Qc=heat rejected
4- Qc=Qev + Qcom
5- Qev= 3Qcom as per actual systems that exist in the market

The results of the system are
1. Free electrical power (7)
2. Free cooling (1)
3. Free heating power (5)
4. Free Condensate water (1)

 


P.S please don’t hesitate to contact my at any time for any clarification

[syhprum]

For a heat pump system to extract energy from the environment you need both a source of heat and a source of cold that is why power stations spend a lot of money building cooling towers. 

[McKay (OP)]

For a heat pump system to extract energy from the environment you need both a source of heat and a source of cold that is why power stations spend a lot of money building cooling towers. 

Did you mean that for thermoelectric effect (or steam engine or something the likes) to work you need a temperature difference? Sure, of course.

But a heat pump actually work the best when both source temp and target temp are the same (and it works to make one cooler and one hotter), doesnt it?

*Input = 1 unit
*Hot side = 3 units ->> generate anything >1 unit using thermoelectric/ piston/ whatever generator.
*Cold side = -2 units ->> is replenished to 0 from environment.

Sorry, I just cant let this thing go
 

[agyejy]

For a heat pump system to extract energy from the environment you need both a source of heat and a source of cold that is why power stations spend a lot of money building cooling towers. 

Did you mean that for thermoelectric effect (or steam engine or something the likes) to work you need a temperature difference? Sure, of course.

But a heat pump actually work the best when both source temp and target temp are the same (and it works to make one cooler and one hotter), doesnt it?

*Input = 1 unit
*Hot side = 3 units ->> generate anything >1 unit using thermoelectric/ piston/ whatever generator.
*Cold side = -2 units ->> is replenished to 0 from environment.

Sorry, I just cant let this thing go
 

Simply put what you are attempting to do violates the second law of thermodynamics. The validity of which is well established.

https://www.ohio.edu/mechanical/thermo/Intro/Chapt.1_6/Chapter5.html <- discusses the conected heat engine/pump secenario and why it violates the second law

[McKay (OP)]

Question 1 : Are there heat pumps that work with effective efficiency of 300% + (that is - 1 kwh of input electricity produces 2kwh loss of heat on one side and 3 kwh influx of heat on the other) ?
Question 2 : Are there thermal generators (steam, peltier, w/e) that work at 35% + efficiency?

I really dont want to sound like a crack-pot, but, ... ughhh. What do I need to do to build this myself? A working heat pump + the thermal generator = rather expensive. I am really not in a position to play around with money like that. Then I could see exactly what happens.

[industry7]

Question 2 : Are there thermal generators (steam, peltier, w/e) that work at 35% + efficiency?

An electric heater is essentially 100% efficient.  Think about it.  Normally when you talk about inefficiency, you're talking about waste heat.  Some friction somewhere that's bleeding off some useful work as non-useful heat.  Well if you have a heater sitting in the room that you're trying to heat, even "waste heat" is doing "useful" work.  It's heating the room, which is what you wanted.

I really dont want to sound like a crack-pot, but, ... ughhh. What do I need to do to build this myself?

I don't understand what you're trying to build.

[syhprum]

where ever you have a thermal gradient similar to a gravitational gradient you can extract power from it I feel that a combination of a heat pump and a Peltier junction is an over complex way of doing it.

[yor_on]

I'm not sure I'm following your argument AL-azzeh Tareq? You state that " In lay mans terms, energy ejected into the environment will be at least 4 times more than the electrical energy which runs the compressor."

I assume that this 'energy' means the same going in, and out? If that is correct then what you say is that you found a way to extract four times the energy you put into a system. That's even better than a perpetual machine. If not, where would the extra 'energy' come from?

[McKay (OP)]

Question 2 : Are there thermal generators (steam, peltier, w/e) that work at 35% + efficiency?

An electric heater is essentially 100% efficient. 

Not thermal generator as a device generating heat, but a device generating electricity from temperature difference (peltier generators, Stirling engines and the like)

[alancalverd]

An efficiency factor of 3 is pretty standard for airsource heat pumps working around room temperature and 0 - 15 degC ambient. I have a 2 kW system that delivers around 5 - 6 kW into underfloor heating and a hot water tank.

The "magic" is that it doesn't generate more energy, it just squeezes it from the garden into the workshop. 

[McKay (OP)]

I understand, but what happens if I put a 35% efficient thermal-electric engine on a 3kwh heat source (the output of the heat pump) ? It generated 1.05 kilo watts of electricity, doesnt it?

[Bolvan]

McKay!
Yes, properly designed heat pump system will create sufficient delta T to run Stirling engine or Thermoelectric device. And, yes, it will be self-sustaining and generate "extra" for our use.
Source of energy in this case will be ocean or ground or air.
Perfect example of already existing device of this kind is so called "Drinking bird".
It perfectly converts ambient heat into mechanical work and probably knows little about 2-nd law of Tdynamix.

[Bolvan]

To correct my statement eventual source of energy is so called big band... formation of stars burning hydrogen.... shining stars storing the energy in air, ground or water on our planet. 

[Bolvan]

Corrections: Big Bang is initial source of energy.
Every following reciprocation like mass-energy- and back with derivatives MUST be viewed as energy storage IF BB theory is correct.
2nd law does not include such calculus. Hence, all mistakes of interpretations.