[Andy28 (OP)]

quote:Originally posted by Karen W.

I agree with what it tried to establish, ansd I agree with why it went wrong.. the only reason I hate it is that it takes anothers life and puts the executioner in the roll of delivering the penalty,, really creeopy I like life and still don't like the death penalty,,

Karen

Karen the executioner is never known as three prison officials push buttons simulaneously.

[Karen W.]

That seems even worse now, three people have to live with the guilt that it could have been them that administered the lethal dose. It still does not change my opinion.. I've tried to raise my children otherwise. Because two wrongs don't make a right or bring back the life that was taken away to begin with.... Such a shame that people have to use this as a measure to teach another human a lesson...and feel justice served through yet another life being ended. How do you teach a child? By modeling 1rst and foremost! How do you tell your child that taking a another life is wrong and not acceptable and then show your child that there are exceptions to that rule.. Yes we don't carry it out by our own hand, but we pass it on to a higher authority thus some how making it more legal and proper some how justifying that and eye for and eye is really the true law!

   I have sat on both sides of the fence on this during a period in my life where my best friend was brutally murdered by her husband.. some years later 4 of my female cousin were murdered as they gathered to a family get together and one of their husbands went crazy with a gun and started spraying bullets all through the house killing 4 of the sisters and killing 2 very innocent babies in the spray!.... I am again crying because when my friend died I wanted to see that man pay... I somehow thought it would ease the pain... but it doesn't.. It only Leaves questions unanswered about about life and everything you believe in.. I have yet been very close to another murder of a couple members of my family which I won't go into again here it is posted in another forum.. I am 46 years old and had many members of my family , Cousins killed.. They walked a different path then I and my family siblings etc. But I have learned that more good is done through rehab and incarceration then taking another life.. Yes I have been for the death penalty and agaisnt it. eye for and eye does nothing but confuse and lay a heavy burden on others...More time should be spent taking care of individuals with problems and teaching our youth about feeling, conflict management, anger management and other skills that can aid in the avoidance of these problems.. I know that everything can't be solved this way.. but it would go long way to creating children who are compassionant and skilled and loving citizens in our world.We need more resources available to adults with easier access to this help free or no cost counciling things like this.. I am sorry I have been touched rather deeply by this topic and it holds a truth for me that came through close first hand experience with victims and their slayers..so I have several pieces of my heart vested in my opinions so you may feel I am biased, you may be right.. but I will stand firm in my own knowledge that an eye for an eye is not a great thing to teach or practice or for our children to grow up learning and seeing!

Karen

[Gaia]

quote:Originally posted by Karen W.

That seems even worse now, three people have to live with the guilt that it could have been them that administered the lethal dose. It still does not change my opinion.. I've tried to raise my children otherwise. Because two wrongs don't make a right or bring back the life that was taken away to begin with.... Such a shame that people have to use this as a measure to teach another human a lesson...and feel justice served through yet another life being ended. How do you teach a child? By modeling 1rst and foremost! How do you tell your child that taking a another life is wrong and not acceptable and then show your child that there are exceptions to that rule.. Yes we don't carry it out by our own hand, but we pass it on to a higher authority thus some how making it more legal and proper some how justifying that and eye for and eye is really the true law!

   I have sat on both sides of the fence on this during a period in my life where my best friend was brutally murdered by her husband.. some years later 4 of my female cousin were murdered as they gathered to a family get together and one of their husbands went crazy with a gun and started spraying bullets all through the house killing 4 of the sisters and killing 2 very innocent babies in the spray!.... I am again crying because when my friend died I wanted to see that man pay... I somehow thought it would ease the pain... but it doesn't.. It only Leaves questions unanswered about about life and everything you believe in.. I have yet been very close to another murder of a couple members of my family which I won't go into again here it is posted in another forum.. I am 46 years old and had many members of my family , Cousins killed.. They walked a different path then I and my family siblings etc. But I have learned that more good is done through rehab and incarceration then taking another life.. Yes I have been for the death penalty and agaisnt it. eye for and eye does nothing but confuse and lay a heavy burden on others...More time should be spent taking care of individuals with problems and teaching our youth about feeling, conflict management, anger management and other skills that can aid in the avoidance of these problems.. I know that everything can't be solved this way.. but it would go long way to creating children who are compassionant and skilled and loving citizens in our world.We need more resources available to adults with easier access to this help free or no cost counciling things like this.. I am sorry I have been touched rather deeply by this topic and it holds a truth for me that came through close first hand experience with victims and their slayers..so I have several pieces of my heart vested in my opinions so you may feel I am biased, you may be right.. but I will stand firm in my own knowledge that an eye for an eye is not a great thing to teach or practice or for our children to grow up learning and seeing!

Karen

Karen, you're such a strong person to have gone thro' all that s**t and come out the other side with such a caring and compassionate view.

Murder is wrong, state-sanctioned murder doubly so because it can reinforce the vicious spiral. Also obscene is the legal system in some countries where the death penalty can be avoided by paying 'blood money'!!! It can even go so far as to value a women's life as worth half that of a man's. (I'll leave out the religious excuse here because that is interpretation rather than actual.)

Gaia  xxx

[another_someone]

quote:Originally posted by Andy28
I see what you are saying but the death penalty should ALWAYS be an option to the courts. Ted Bundy? Need i say more?

Not sure what you are saying with that?

I could bring Harold Shipman to mind - he took his own life in prison - so what does that prove?

That Ted Bundy committed his crimes despite being in a jurisdiction where capital punishment was in effect just demonstrates that capital punishment did not act as a deterrent in his case.

George

[Karen W.]

[/quote]

Karen, you're such a strong person to have gone thro' all that s**t and come out the other side with such a caring and compassionate view.

Murder is wrong, state-sanctioned murder doubly so because it can reinforce the vicious spiral. Also obscene is the legal system in some countries where the death penalty can be avoided by paying 'blood money'!!! It can even go so far as to value a women's life as worth half that of a man's. (I'll leave out the religious excuse here because that is interpretation rather than actual.)

Gaia  xxx
[/quote]


Gaia, I know why I believe this to be true, the problem lies in the fact that some can not and will not ever see this view as they have never been there to experience this pain and the suffering from the other side.. You might think it accomplihes something and justice is served, but it is not... to me remembering those I have loved with all my heart and keeping those special memories untainted, is how I want to remember my loved ones and friend.My friend was a beautiful young women with so much life and she was here to bring great joy to many lives... and she did, I wish for her to always be remembered like that.. I do not want to add the senseless act of murder and revenge to her beautiful memory as that was not what she was about!! She was about Joy Life friendship smiles and beauty inside and out...

Karen

[Andy28 (OP)]

quote:Originally posted by another_someone

quote:Originally posted by Andy28
I see what you are saying but the death penalty should ALWAYS be an option to the courts. Ted Bundy? Need i say more?

Not sure what you are saying with that?

I could bring Harold Shipman to mind - he took his own life in prison - so what does that prove?

That Ted Bundy committed his crimes despite being in a jurisdiction where capital punishment was in effect just demonstrates that capital punishment did not act as a deterrent in his case.

George

I agree it is'nt a deterrent.  The main reason for that is because the death penalty is'nt mandatory and most get off with a life senstance.  I don't think most americans care weather it deters anyway, it's all about paying what you owe.

[Karen W.]

Most americans do care, some do not! Most people do care some people do not!

Karen

[Carolyn]

quote:Originally posted by Andy28

quote:Originally posted by another_someone

quote:Originally posted by Andy28
I see what you are saying but the death penalty should ALWAYS be an option to the courts. Ted Bundy? Need i say more?

Not sure what you are saying with that?

I could bring Harold Shipman to mind - he took his own life in prison - so what does that prove?

That Ted Bundy committed his crimes despite being in a jurisdiction where capital punishment was in effect just demonstrates that capital punishment did not act as a deterrent in his case.

George

I agree it is'nt a deterrent.  The main reason for that is because the death penalty is'nt mandatory and most get off with a life senstance.  I don't think most americans care weather it deters anyway, it's all about paying what you owe.

No, I don't believe it to be a deterrent either.  THIS American does wish (as I'm sure the majority do) that is was more of a deterrent.  I was 12 and living in Tallahassee, Florida when Ted Bundy killed the Florida State University students.  It was a horribly scary time in our town.  I'm not really sure what my views on the death penalty are, I have mixed emotions about it.  I remember people being fed up with the amount of time Bundy was on death row.  I also remember the 'grown up's' complaining about their tax dollars supporting Bundy for so long. Actually, I was a grown up by the time he was executed. Some time during his stay on death row, the state was trying to pass mandatory seat belt laws.  I recall t-shirts that people wore that read "I'll buckle up when Bundy does".

Carolyn

[another_someone]

quote:Originally posted by Andy28
I agree it is'nt a deterrent.  The main reason for that is because the death penalty is'nt mandatory and most get off with a life senstance.  I don't think most americans care weather it deters anyway, it's all about paying what you owe.

I cannot speak for whether Americans do or don't care about whether it deters (I doubt they do not care, but it is not my place to speak on their behalf); but then what relevance has your argument with regard to deterrence?

As for paying what you owe – how do you pay for another persons life?  Do you really believe that a life for a life somehow clears a debt?  I very much doubt that the people who suffered most would feel they have any debt cleared by that means (Karen has already put forward her view on the matter, and she has got closer to actually feeling the loss, and whatever debt you may feel needs repaying, than either you or I).

The life of a loved one is not something that one would trade, and incur a debt that would be repaid – there is no credit and debit balance.

As for automatic death sentences, as has been said over and over again, most murderers do not think about the consequences of their actions when they commit murder, so no amount of deterrent will alter their behaviour (deterrent can only work when someone thinks through the consequences, and chooses not to incur those consequences).

Ted Bundy was somewhat different to your average murderer in that he was a serial killer (most murderers will only ever commit one act of murder in their lives – even when that one act might take the lives of several people).  Most murderers will act in a moment of anger, while the likes of Ted Bundy will act as a consequence of mental illness that leeds to an anti-social compulsion (no different in nature from kleptomania, Coprolalia, or any other compulsion (in his case it seems to have been necrophilia).  No amount of deterrent will stop such compulsive behaviour.  Mandatory capital punishment would not have made the slightest difference.

It is telling that far from having a deterrent effect, the USA has a higher murder rate than most countries that do not have capital punishment.  It probably is not so much a matter that capital punishment actually promotes murder (our own experience when capital punishment was removed was that it had zero impact in any form), but rather that countries that accept capital punishment have a generally higher tolerance of violence, and that this is reflected both in the way the citizens behave towards each other, and the way the State behaves towards its citizens.

George

[Karen W.]

So many killers like him are calculating smart devias and very cold, studies have shown that most serial killers and such leave clues behind them because they want to get caught, they don't care what the penalty is, its like a very dangerous game to them and as George said when they are in that kind of a state they don't care. These are people who don't value human life and more times then not any type of life.. let alone their own.. There is no punish for them in death because they already have died in a sense. Their life as that of others holds no value to them.. now this is just my humble opinion but most people who loose their self worth begin to stop valuing their own life which then sometimes leads to our high suicide rates. Maybe educating people and teaching them self worth and other life skills will empower more people to be better accepting of themslves as being able to have something to offer of themselves to others..to soceity!

Karen

[Andy28 (OP)]

Unless you have had a loved one murdered then you really can't know weather the death penalty is right or wrong. I very much doubt that if someone raped and murdered your daughter that you would want to treat them with compassion and spare them the suffering of a death sentence.

[Karen W.]

I have had several Loved ones murdered, did you not read my post... I still feel the same... Maybe you should read it again, as I believe you missed it!! You missed the whole point of my post!

Karen

[Andy28 (OP)]

Karen you are in the minority. If someone ever killed someone who meant something to me they would be dealt with by me never mind by the courts.  How can you be so forgiving? Everyone to their own i suppose.

[Gaia]

quote:Originally posted by Andy28

Karen you are in the minority. If someone ever killed someone who meant something to me they would be dealt with by me never mind by the courts.  How can you be so forgiving? Everyone to their own i suppose.

Andy, strikes me that you are in the minority, both in the UK and especially on this thread!!!

Gaia  xxx

[Andy28 (OP)]

Not in real life though Gaia. 75% of americans support the death penalty and many Brits support it also. The trouble is our government won't re - introduce it no matter how many people vote for it to be reinstated.

[moonfire]

Andy, I admire your stand on your belief.  I know it is important even if you are a minority on an issue.  The government is looking at the value of money from the people, when people live longer in prison we, the free people on the outside pay for their living expenses....but, a human life is a human life.  I know the old addage of an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.  But if you had someone that you loved killed, could you possibly see it inside yourself (even though you are angry)to kill that person through revenge?

"Lo" Loretta

[another_someone]

quote:Originally posted by Andy28
If someone ever killed someone who meant something to me they would be dealt with by me never mind by the courts.  How can you be so forgiving? Everyone to their own i suppose.

I think the key issue is if - the reality, you cannot know (and nor can I) how we would react to such trauma until we actually go through it.
On a broader issue, which do you consider more successful, the 'truth and reconciliation commission' instigated in South Africa to bring an end to the violence of the past, or the cycle of vengeance currently happening in Iraq?

George

[Andy28 (OP)]

You've lost me now, lol. Too broad.

[Karen W.]

Andy, when my friend was murdered it was one of the most horriffic scenes that I can imagine he chased her through the apartment shooting her...she kept getting up and trying to get away and he'd shoot her again, her blood was found in every room of the house.. it was smeard on the walls the furniture was spattered with it...then he drug by her hair beat her with the gun.. he threw her to the floor in front of her sofa and left her the last shot he sent to her head..and left! She tried to get to the door.. when the police came days later they found her dead .. I hated this man I dipised him I wanted to kill him, All I could see was my anger so much so that it became about my feelings not about her, I had burried her in my head to forget her beautiful spirit so I could be more like him and not feel love and compassion because it hurt to much.That way I could justify killing him or making him pay..making him pay for her death.. I wanted them to execute him... He got away and they never found him.. I became very bitter very cold and lost my ability to feel compassion.....One day I was riding in the car and an old song came on... "If I could spend time in a bottle" Jim Croche. I started to sing with it.. and then I was crying as I was remembering Kelly and how we were in Madrical choir belting that old song out and the joy and the beauty on her face as she sang it with me.. my friend was back with me for the first time in several years and suddenly I felt this blackness rise off me and I remembered her .. her smile her voice her tears her loves and her fears. I remember the things she valued and how ashamed I was that I had waisted everything she had brought into my life.. All the laughter and joy..and love for life.. I was overcome with emotion and peace for the first time since her death.. I realized that I had stunted her life myself by hating and being vengeful and bitter and that by doing so the legacy she left would never be enjoyed and truely then her life would have been in vain...SO I vowed  to spend as much time with her
as I could by doing the things she taught me ,,Being compassionate Loving kind happy and joyful .. She was was beautiful and I'll never let my anger resentment and hate eat away at me and those I have loved and still love.. I will stand firm in what I believe because I have been on both sides of this issue and the other side is not worth my life her life or all the others that were taken from me... I now have those lives inside of me in my memories again and I intend to do right by them for the rest of my life! I  have tried to teach my children compassion and love and they may loose their way and their faith, but I have confidence and faith that they will always remember what they need to carry on..and will do just that with compassion and love.. I am most certainly not the minority.. I know many many people who feel the same as I do! I do not want to become hardened and bitter as the people who took the lives of my loved ones... No Thank-You!

Karen

[Andy28 (OP)]

I think this is a definate case for the death penalty. If someone kills someone with 1 shot while trying to get away during a robbery then they don't deserve the death penalty but what this bloke did was pre-meditated.  He lost his right to live when he killed her. He had a choice though, she did'nt.