[wadegardner (OP)]

I believe that in order to understand gravity and/or dark matter and harness it through replication, one may be able to look into our own backyard (our neck of the woods aka earth). 

1) Take for instance a re-inforced steel habitat that is built for humans to live in deep in the ocean.  There is a great amount of pressure that is on the 'outside' of this habitat and, the steel withstands the pressures from the depths.  The air/oxygen on the inside has to be pressurized.  Why?  Is it because it is below sea level and the gravitational forces below sea level making it mandatory for air pressurization to an extent that requires a person to undergo decompression for a period of time in a chamber when no longer living on the oceans floor in that environment?   

2) Now quantify the the gravity exerted on a human (g-forces and weight) and space craft as it is leaving the ground and then eventually escaping earths gravitational pull.

3) Consider the micro gravity of living on the space station or walking on a spacecraft as it orbits the earth and the air pressure that is needed to sustain that habitat.  Is it not of air tight construction?  Is it the micro gravity that affects the need for a different air pressure on a space mission in order to sustain life?  Why is it so different from the habitat on the ocean's floor.  is it gravity related although they both are air tight  environments?  Now we have to look at Denver, Colorado (city) for a moment.  The air surrounding the mile high city is thinner than at sea level.  Compare this environment to the below sea level habitat and the habitat in outer space.  What is the difference in pressures in those habitats since they are sealed and one being open?       

4) In our own backyard we should be able to examine this spectrum from one end to the other and potentially quantify these differences on paper and potentially map out what gravity / dark matter is in a formula that will fit the bigger picture or, come close to it with a few differences that can be ironed out with reasoning and logic and be proven as it always has in the past. 

I am simplifying what can be done in understandable terms.  I feel as though one does not have to look deep into space for something that takes place on earth where we live.  If there are any brainstorming questions out there, I hope I can help to better put this into a better perspective.

There is also the time dilation to be considered although minute.  It may play a role in the overall formula that allows this to work.

Many people claim that dark matter takes up most of our universe as it is viewed from telescopes.  Are we able to physically see the air we breath as it is ever present here on earth?  No, but, it can be viewed from reactions on other elements (exhale air from out lungs into our hands).  We can feel its presence.  We can view the earth from a distance with cameras or telescopes or even the naked eye and note that we can see the air on earth (or at least the outline of the atmosphere) to know that it is there.  Since we cannot see dark matter on earth (because we are so close to it) perhaps one can view it from a distance.  Perhaps, we do have dark matter that we are unaware of.  Perhaps we can harness these energies.  Combining these sciences in order to form a synergistic formula may allow us to simplify what gravity/dark matter is that allows us to replicate these forces and usher in a new age of travel.  Not to mention other spin off technologies that will propel us into a new age of comfort. 

[PmbPhy]

I believe that in order to understand gravity and/or dark matter, one may be able to look into our own backyard.

That is incorrect for the reasons I'll explain below.

1) Take for instance a re-inforced steel habitat that is build for humans to live in deep in the ocean.

The deep ocean isn't exactly the same as my backyard now, is it?

2) Now quantify the the gravity exerted on a human (g-forces and weight) and space craft ...

Also not like my backyard since I don't feel forces greater than 1-g in my backyard.

3) Consider the micro gravity of living on the space station or walking on a space craft as it orbits the earth and the air pressure that is needed to sustain that habitat.

The places where a spacecraft experiences microgravity isn't the same as my backyard either, is it?

4) In our own backyard we should be able to examine this spectrum ...

And how do we do that since those things are not like our backyard nor do they occur in our backyard?

from one end to the other and potentially quantify these differences on paper on paper and potentially map out what gravity / dark matter is in a formula that will fit the bigger picture or come close to it with a few differences that can be ironed out with reasoning and logic and be proven as it always has in the past.  ...

Since we can't take measurements in our backyard that will yield the same data as that described above we can't do that either.

For example; dark matter can only be detected by observing the rotation curves of galaxies and that can't be done in any backyard. We also can't observe how gravity varies with the distance from the center of the Earth if we never leave our backyard.

[wadegardner (OP)]

I appreciate how you analyze data to a certain extent although a bit shortsighted.  "Back yard" is a term I used because our own little space in which we habitat happens to be a very small area compared to the universe (bigger picture).  I personally think that you should consider refining your own perspective before bashing someone elses idea(s).  Good luck in your own life as I personally believe more work is needed in order to appreciate others and their opinion(s).

The ocean and space are "our" backyard compared to the vastness of the universe as a whole.  You certainly made me laugh when I read your comments.  Expanding the horizons of a persons thoughts takes work and understanding the same is comprehension.  I am a worker.  Good day to you.

I believe that if the information of these sciences that I have discussed while 'brainstorming' is Combined to a higher level of understanding, we will as a people understand more of how the universe works overall.  Combining sciences is imperative in order to simplify questions.  It is called wisdom and experiences that lead us to believe as we learn more every day.  Again I say, good luck to the bashers out there.  I think they may have more to contemplate rather and sophisticate their thoughts on how to respond to others ideas. I feel it is better to 'ask' questions to gain a clearer understanding of an idea.     

[Ophiolite]

wadegardner,

A considerable amount of research on gravity has been conducted in the various environments you mention. None of this research has suggested the presence of dark matter. More than that, the research has suggested that dark matter - if present - has an influence that is currently undetectable in our backyard.

So, although it is an interesting idea, it looks as if the evidence is against it.

[Merccooper]

PmbPhy, you crack me up sometimes! Reminds me of Sheldon Cooper from The Big Bang TV show!

How come no one wants to entertain wadegardner's questions more seriously? In 1915 scientists probably thought they couldn't  physically prove time dilation (even though they predicted it), it was't even until about 1955 that we could measure time accurately enough to measure time dilation in our own "backyard". By flying around the world (our own back yard) in a jet they proved it in 1977 (not saying that was the first proof).

Was the considerable amount of research on gravity in those various environments specifically in search of dark matter and was it sensitive enough and/or do we have sensitive enough technology to measure it yet?

[JohnDuffield]

wadegardner: a gravitational field is in essence "a pressure gradient in space". You never really hear anybody saying that, but take a look at the stress-energy-momentum tensor, which "describes the density and flux of energy and momentum in spacetime":



See the energy-pressure diagonal? It isn't there for nothing. As for dark matter, note that in The Foundation of the General Theory of Relativity, Einstein said "the energy of the gravitational field shall act gravitatively in the same way as any other kind of energy". So the space where a gravitational field is has a gravitational effect. It's like it's dark matter.

[PmbPhy]

PmbPhy, you crack me up sometimes! Reminds me of Sheldon Cooper from The Big Bang TV show!

How can I crack you up sometimes if you just joined? Have you been watching and reading for sometime? If so then how did you come to read so many of my posts because I post much less often then everyone else? I find that comment to be suspicious for that reason. And no. I don't suffer from paranoia so please don't use that old chestnut as a poor attempt at sarcasm like so many members do when people call them out.

How come no one wants to entertain wadegardner's questions more seriously?

I already told you why. It was full of errors.

First of all when I said "my own back yard" I was referring to our environment at sea level, i.e. Standard Pressure, Temperature and Pressure (STP). I assumed that is what you meant by "back yard." By the way. In the future, if you don't know or are not 100% sure of what someone meant its best to simply ask them rather than trying to "read their mind" by which I mean thinking that you know what they said when in actually you don't. I.e. you misread their intent. I dislike that kind of thing so much that it's one of the rules my members have to follow when they join my physics forum.

In 1915 scientists probably thought they couldn't  physically prove time dilation (even though they predicted it), it was't even until about 1955 that we could measure time accurately enough to measure time dilation in our own "backyard".

I disagree. The first evidence of time dilation was done with muons when in 1941 a detector was placed on the top of Mount Washington which is 6,000 feet above sea level. By measuring the muon count at different levels above sea level they were able to determine the expression for time dilation.

Was the considerable amount of research on gravity in those various environments specifically in search of dark matter and was it sensitive enough and/or do we have sensitive enough technology to measure it yet?

When I posted my first response it was unclear to me whether you knew what dark matter is. It didn't appear so because you seem to have implied that we could do experiments on Earth to prove the existence of dark matter when in fact the only evidence comes from observations of galaxy rotation curves.

[wadegardner (OP)]

This thread is getting more interesting.  Thanks to all who are taking the time out to read and reply.

I have another theory that potentially could shed some light on perspective of what I have already mentioned in my initial post.

1)  One cannot see the air that we breath but, we know it's there.  One can see the atmosphere on earth when viewed from a distance (outer space) or at least an outlined field of our atmosphere.  Scientists predict dark matter far away in the distance from earth.  What if we are in the middle of dark matter but, cannot see it because we are just too close to it as the air we breath?  How many times have we discovered something that was always there but we never seen it before until an emphasis was placed on it?  Just an idea.  Like I said, I believe my ideas have merit.  Sometimes it takes innovation to understand more.  Understanding more could be simply combining sciences together for a better formulation.

PmbPhy, when you were talking about your backyard when you were bashing my ideas, I thought you were actually talking about your house backyard.  That is what it sounded like.  Thank you for the clarification.  you made my day.     

[PmbPhy]

PmbPhy, when you were talking about your backyard when you were bashing my ideas, I thought you were actually talking about your house backyard.  That is what it sounded like.  Thank you for the clarification.  you made my day.     

I don't understand you. First you imply that you've read a lot of my posts but you only registered yesterday. Then you post the comment "PmbPhy, you crack me up sometimes!" which could be an insult, depending on why I crack you up. Then you automatically assumed that I was quite literally talking about a persons backyard. Then you say that I was "bashing" your ideas which implies that I was being mean to some extent. I was only stating what's wrong with the scientific ideas in your post. Exactly how do you think scientific ideas are criticized by other scientists when they're flawed in some way?

In any case I'm very glad to see that your attitude has changed. I much prefer making friends than making enemies.

[PmbPhy]

One cannot see the air that we breath but, we know it's there.

We know its there because although we can't "see" it we can detect it. Actually there are ways to see what the air is doing so we see the effects of air. We see the air moving (wind) by watching what it does to trees. We see what the air does to light when its a very hot day and the heat from pavement heat up the air and that causes light waves to distort as it passes through the air. And as you indicated we can see the see what the atmosphere does to light when viewed from space. We don't really "see" the atmosphere though. We only see what the atmosphere is doing to light.

What if we are in the middle of dark matter ...

I believe that's a widely held assumption depending on what dark matter is. One kind of dark matter is black holes and other starts which we can't see with optically.

Like I said, I believe my ideas have merit.

The valid ones that you've mentioned so far have already been thought of long ago. 

PmbPhy, when you were talking about your backyard when you were bashing my ideas, I thought you were actually talking about your house backyard.

Why would you think that? Did it never occur to you to ask?

[wadegardner (OP)]

PmbPhy, I appreciate your insight.  I also believe that asking questions either solves or encourages more questions until finally a solution is found.  I do have to bring up one thing though:  Combining sciences is innovative in all areas of science and life in general.  I am a free thinker looking for a potential solution through questions.  I may have reached an impasse.  Other peoples ideas sometimes help solve stumbling blocks where not all perspectives have been taken into account and may be missing an element or two.  I still feel as though that understanding the physics of deep sea habitats and the factoring in of travelling at different velocities reaching orbit and the elements of an outer space habitat will one day will bring to light potentially new discoveries of some sort when they are all put in unison.  Perhaps there is a missing element that I am unaware of.  These ideas that I have cover all elements (I believe) of our backyard (so to speak).  Maybe I am missing the element of re-entry (descending) into the earths atmosphere and the effects of not only the space capsule, but the human body as well (including environment inside capsule).  I am free thinking again on that.  Don't mind me if I am brainstorming on the forum.  Just food for thought!  My apologies to you PmbPhy for not asking for clarification of what you meant by backyard.  I should of been more sensitive.   

[PmbPhy]

My apologies to you PmbPhy for not asking for clarification of what you meant by backyard.  I should of been more sensitive.   

Thank you. It was more confusing than anything because it appeared as if I upset you for no reason that I could see. I wasn't even going to respond again but after I took some time to reflect on your response I saw that such wasn't necessarily the case. However it was your comment

PmbPhy, you crack me up sometimes! Reminds me of Sheldon Cooper from The Big Bang TV show!

That seemed highly suspicious since you just joined and you say that "sometimes" I crack you up. I also don't see the comparison between myself and Sheldon. He's a character with many facets so when you use him as an analogy of something you need to refer to which facet that you have in mind for the analogy to make any sense.

See my point?

[wadegardner (OP)]

I see your point, but that last quote was not mine.  Thank you for accepting my apology overall !   I believe we are all here to find the truth(s) regardless of what it might be.   Forums like these are awesome tools for thought. 

[wadegardner (OP)]

Potentially what I am thinking about with the differences in gravity's and motion is also intertwined the science of time dilation as Merccooper and JohnDuffield have pointed out in their previous posts when they brought the subject(s) up.  More to think about on my part.  This could very well be the bigger picture overall that I am looking for with these sciences all put together understanding more of the idea of the theories of gravitational 'dark matter.'  Thanks to all who read and post!!

[wadegardner (OP)]

Ophiolite, I appreciate you insight.  It is certainly logical.  I may be a step behind in my thoughts compared to previous studies conducted.  I am not sure though that the sciences have been combined in order to form higher synergistic value(s) that usually take place when combined to form a more efficient way to view the universe.  If I am mistaken, please elaborate.  Thank you in advance.  []

[Ophiolite]

First of all when I said "my own back yard" I was referring to our environment at sea level, i.e. Standard Pressure, Temperature and Pressure (STP). I assumed that is what you meant by "back yard." By the way. In the future, if you don't know or are not 100% sure of what someone meant its best to simply ask them rather than trying to "read their mind" by which I mean thinking that you know what they said when in actually you don't. I.e. you misread their intent. I dislike that kind of thing so much that it's one of the rules my members have to follow when they join my physics forum.

Perhaps, PmbPhy you should take your own advice. It was very clear, from context, that wade used the term "own back yard" to refer to environments currently accessible to us. He even gave examples of such environments, in order to avoid ambiguity.

You chose to "read his mind" and impose a different interpretation on the phrase, an interpretation that contradicted his specific mention of accessible environments. You owe wade an apology.

[PmbPhy]

Perhaps, PmbPhy you should take your own advice. It was very clear, from context, that wade used the term "own back yard" to refer to environments currently accessible to us. He even gave examples of such environments, in order to avoid ambiguity.

Oy! And that is exactly why I said

I assumed that is what you meant by "back yard."

You really need to read more carefully about what you're responding to. This is yet another example of mind reading and why making assumptions about what people are thinking should be avoided. I KNEW what he meant BECAUSE of the examples he gave, i.e. our environment at STP as I clearly stated.

You chose to "read his mind" ..

Nonsense. I read what he wrote and that made it obvious because he explained it. That's why he gave examples, i.e. to explain what he meant by back yard.

... and impose a different interpretation on the phrase, an interpretation that contradicted his specific mention of accessible environments.

You don't know what you're talking about, again. I explained all of that to him and he responded by saying

Thank you for the clarification.  you made my day. 

Which means that I was right target. It's quite clear that you weren't.

You owe wade an apology.

Hardly. You need to add this to the pile of apologies for all the rude comments you've made in the past due to your arrogance and rude comments.

[wadegardner (OP)]

I truly do believe in being professional.  I would rather show strength through understanding how others think and why they state what they do even when they do not understand the concepts that I speak of.  I try not to impose on being 'in the right' although I believe I was when I made a few negative comments about others.  This is something that I have to work on internally in order to understand more about the philosophies of others and why they state what they do.  To me, it is all within the words and actions that define a person.  If someone does not want to accept being wrong, that person is someone that I try to veer away from for it only holds a person hostage when free thinking in order to understand something new.  Thank you for realizing this and assisting. There will always be negativity I believe and belittling of others ideas for they don't even bother to look at the bigger picture or perhaps they don't have the capacity to do so.  One must be open to new ideas and, making change for it allows us excel. 

[PmbPhy]

I try not to impose on being 'in the right' although I believe I was when I made a few negative comments about others.

It's impressive that not only do you recognize that but that you post it. I find that admirable.

[wadegardner (OP)]

To me all negative points made either by me or others, are an opportunity to be better.  Not only in ideas but actions as well.  Thank you PmbPhy for noting.  I like your philosophy.  I know we all are in search of the truth here as it edifies the mind.