Poll

Should the Elgin Marbles be returned to greece

YES
3 (25%)
NO
8 (66.7%)
WHO CARES
1 (8.3%)

Total Members Voted: 11

ELGIN MARBLES - should they be returned to greece.

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Offline ukmicky

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The Elgin marble's (Parthenon Marbles) have been in great Britain since 1806  nearly two hundred years and are on show in he British museum for all to view. If they hadn't been purchased and removed by lord Elgin from the The Parthenon they would have falling to pieces by now. In my view he saved them.

The Greek government want them returned but cant relocate them in the Parthenon as they wouldn't survive very long so they have like the British built a museum to house but is it two hundred years too late ,are they now British.

Should they be returned to Greece,  I SAY NO!

They are owned by britain and have a  better chance of surviving here than anywhere else

http://lilt.ilstu.edu/DRJCLASSICS/lectures/ParthenonMarbles/marbles.shtm


http://www.greece.org/parthenon/marbles/
« Last Edit: 16/12/2006 19:25:08 by ukmicky »

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Offline Heliotrope

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Re: ELGIN MARBLES - should they be returned to greece.
« Reply #1 on: 17/12/2006 18:24:05 »
If they were legally purchased then they belong to whoever paid for them.
What happens to the marbles is up to that person.
If Greece wants them back they can get their wallet out.

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Offline neilep

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Re: ELGIN MARBLES - should they be returned to greece.
« Reply #2 on: 17/12/2006 19:32:25 »

As a firm believer in empirical study I just went to Greece and purchased some marbles. I am not returning them.

Conclusion: Those marbles are ours !!
« Last Edit: 17/12/2006 20:39:33 by neilep »
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Offline Karen W.

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Re: ELGIN MARBLES - should they be returned to greece.
« Reply #3 on: 17/12/2006 20:20:59 »
LOL.... I had never even heard of them.. WHAt kind of marbles are they exactly? Game type marbles , pillar like statues, or artifacts made from Marble?? Curious in California!

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Offline neilep

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Re: ELGIN MARBLES - should they be returned to greece.
« Reply #4 on: 17/12/2006 20:33:33 »
LOL.... I had never even heard of them.. WHAt kind of marbles are they exactly? Game type marbles , pillar like statues, or artifacts made from Marble?? Curious in California!

Karen mam...The Elgin marbles are slightly bigger !!..perhaps a ton each http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elgin_marbles   ...maybe more...perhaps less !!..and ' marble ' is a reference to the material !!...so yes, statues etc made from marble.
« Last Edit: 17/12/2006 22:16:37 by neilep »
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Offline Karen W.

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Re: ELGIN MARBLES - should they be returned to greece.
« Reply #5 on: 17/12/2006 20:44:46 »
OK, I could find nothing at the link yet, I guess I should look further.. maybe I can find a picture.. Thanks That would be quite the set of game pieces, LOL trying to move such a massive weight!LOL! Sorry me had never heard of them, but yes you should keep them... Its been your care for many many years..! I was thinking what marbles they must be to be so treasured unlike my marble collection , I don't suppose I could fit those into my Jar!!!HEE HEE HEE!
« Last Edit: 17/12/2006 20:46:32 by Karen W. »

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Offline neilep

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Re: ELGIN MARBLES - should they be returned to greece.
« Reply #6 on: 17/12/2006 22:16:56 »
Check the link again..I just fixed it
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Offline Karen W.

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Re: ELGIN MARBLES - should they be returned to greece.
« Reply #7 on: 17/12/2006 22:26:57 »
Oh my Gosh! What an incredible history and wonderful piecse, I have never seen things like that....those are beautiful and so so so very old! That is incredible.. Have you ever been able to see them yourself? GoshHHH I want to see things like that so cool! The history alone is wonderful and to be kept and preserved and gaurded tells me there was a great deal of respect involved in taking these pieces in and preserving them.. Amazing...Thanks for fixing the link Sir Neil!

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Offline neilep

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Re: ELGIN MARBLES - should they be returned to greece.
« Reply #8 on: 17/12/2006 22:40:27 »
yep..not only have I seen them but when I was a kid I spray painted one of them with  a  graffiti tag ! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graffiti

That preceded a swift  kicking out of the museum !!...and then had to go back to clean the offending tag off !!










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Offline Karen W.

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Re: ELGIN MARBLES - should they be returned to greece.
« Reply #9 on: 17/12/2006 22:53:18 »
NO WAY!!! LOL You are not serious are you!!! LOL LOL NO WAY!!!!!  HEE HEE HEE HEE!!!!

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Offline Karen W.

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Re: ELGIN MARBLES - should they be returned to greece.
« Reply #10 on: 17/12/2006 22:55:37 »
OH my Gosh...... Sir.. you were mischievious now weren't you? LOL LOL Jeepers I can't quit laughing! How old were you!! 12 or so... or older and knowing better!!! LOL LOL

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Offline neilep

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Re: ELGIN MARBLES - should they be returned to greece.
« Reply #11 on: 17/12/2006 23:46:20 »
OH my Gosh...... Sir.. you were mischievious now weren't you? LOL LOL Jeepers I can't quit laughing! How old were you!! 12 or so... or older and knowing better!!! LOL LOL

...about 13 !!..me norty !!
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Offline Karen W.

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Re: ELGIN MARBLES - should they be returned to greece.
« Reply #12 on: 18/12/2006 00:48:06 »
Hee hee hee hee!! I love it! You are so funny! 13 years old and reeking havac on the museum artifacts... I bet you learned a good lesson... Tagging.. I spent a great deal of young adult life working with the police dept. trying to rid the city of grafitti tags... One gang marking one end of the street and the others marking the other end... We did restoration and gang related classes to help the young little taggers like yourself who were so bored !!! LOL LOL LOL LOL You make me laugh so hard!! You is a bad boy indeed!!

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Offline ukmicky

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Re: ELGIN MARBLES - should they be returned to greece.
« Reply #13 on: 18/12/2006 04:43:12 »
Neil you Vandal :)

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Offline Karen W.

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Re: ELGIN MARBLES - should they be returned to greece.
« Reply #14 on: 18/12/2006 04:53:33 »
LOL

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Offline moonfire

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Re: ELGIN MARBLES - should they be returned to greece.
« Reply #15 on: 18/12/2006 05:06:33 »
If you own them, then keep them...funny, I was talking about us giving away the Panama Canal...how nice of us to give back something we viciously fought for, built, died for and then we give it back and say good boys and let us pay you for using it too!  What irony!
"Just Me, Lo" Loretta

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Offline RRR

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Re: ELGIN MARBLES - should they be returned to greece.
« Reply #16 on: 19/12/2006 15:29:00 »
Any larceny is criminal action....
About a history of the Elgin marbles. In the 1805 year an english ambassador in the Ottoman empire he did steal the Parfenon's  marble in Greece... The ambassador was a criminal person.
The Parthenon's marble  it  is an ownership of Greece..
 Therefore it is need to return the Elgin marble  to Greece.
 

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Offline neilep

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Re: ELGIN MARBLES - should they be returned to greece.
« Reply #17 on: 19/12/2006 22:24:40 »
Any larceny is criminal action....
About a history of the Elgin marbles. In the 1805 year an english ambassador in the Ottoman empire he did steal the Parfenon's  marble in Greece... The ambassador was a criminal person.
The Parthenon's marble  it  is an ownership of Greece..
 Therefore it is need to return the Elgin marble  to Greece.

Will ewe let me at them before they get returned ?..
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Offline Karen W.

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Re: ELGIN MARBLES - should they be returned to greece.
« Reply #18 on: 19/12/2006 22:26:53 »
NEIL...LOL LOL Don't give em the spray paint! Oh NOOOOOO!!! LOL
« Last Edit: 20/12/2006 01:05:06 by Karen W. »

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Offline daveshorts

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Re: ELGIN MARBLES - should they be returned to greece.
« Reply #19 on: 19/12/2006 23:41:32 »
Any larceny is criminal action....
About a history of the Elgin marbles. In the 1805 year an english ambassador in the Ottoman empire he did steal the Parfenon's  marble in Greece... The ambassador was a criminal person.
The Parthenon's marble  it  is an ownership of Greece..
 Therefore it is need to return the Elgin marble  to Greece.

The only problem with this arguement is that if everyone had to give back all the art that has been historically stolen, the louvre would be half empty,  the russians would have to give back all the stuff they pinched in the second world war, and some descendants of some aristocrats will be very rich... What happens if something has been stolen multiple times?

The real argument for giving them back is that they were off architecture that is still standing (the acropolis) and it makes more sense to see them next to it. I think possibly the british museum should lend them to a greek museum, thus not setting a dangerous precident.
« Last Edit: 19/12/2006 23:43:27 by daveshorts »

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Offline Karen W.

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Re: ELGIN MARBLES - should they be returned to greece.
« Reply #20 on: 20/12/2006 01:06:52 »
That sounds amakable!

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Offline ukmicky

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Re: ELGIN MARBLES - should they be returned to greece.
« Reply #21 on: 20/12/2006 02:21:31 »
The only problem with lending them to the greeks is they would never get them back.

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Offline Karen W.

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Re: ELGIN MARBLES - should they be returned to greece.
« Reply #22 on: 20/12/2006 02:27:56 »
 And that sounds probable!!! LOL

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Offline jysk

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Re: ELGIN MARBLES - should they be returned to greece.
« Reply #23 on: 20/12/2006 08:20:41 »
It sounds like the Greeks have really lost their marbles. [;D]

Mike

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Offline Hadrian

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Re: ELGIN MARBLES - should they be returned to greece.
« Reply #24 on: 20/12/2006 14:56:56 »
They are the spoils of an imperial past. You need them like all the other stuff you country stole to hold on to the illusion of a “Grate Britain” superior in all respects. How much grater you be if you did not need them.   [:)
« Last Edit: 20/12/2006 15:30:21 by Hadrian »

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Offline ukmicky

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Re: ELGIN MARBLES - should they be returned to greece.
« Reply #25 on: 21/12/2006 02:46:48 »
So we're superior so what ,i dont care , its not a big deal to us ,i suppose  we've become use to it. 
 Anyway the way i see it is it gives all them lesser countries something to aim for, it shows them that if they try hard enough, they to can become great.  [;D]

Prime example look at America their trying, at the moment their only United but you never know they too if they try hard enough can become Great .  The Great States, its even got a good ring to it. [:D]
« Last Edit: 21/12/2006 21:49:42 by ukmicky »

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Offline neilep

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Re: ELGIN MARBLES - should they be returned to greece.
« Reply #26 on: 21/12/2006 02:52:04 »
Can't we just build a miniature ?..give that to them and tell them it shrunk in the wash !!
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Offline Karen W.

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Re: ELGIN MARBLES - should they be returned to greece.
« Reply #27 on: 21/12/2006 04:41:49 »
IT shrunk in the wash... LOL LOL

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Offline Hadrian

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Re: ELGIN MARBLES - should they be returned to greece.
« Reply #28 on: 21/12/2006 07:33:49 »
Happy Christmas to you and your illusions of grandeur. The only plundering you can do these days is from the crumbs swept off the world by the American democratic slide of hand tricks. Its not that you are used to greatness it’s that your to arrogant to know it’s fake.   [;D]

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Offline RRR

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Re: ELGIN MARBLES - should they be returned to greece.
« Reply #29 on: 21/12/2006 14:13:22 »
Neilep did write:   "Will ewe let me at them before they get returned ?.."
NO !.. 

Daveshorts did write:
"The only problem with this arguement is that if everyone had to give back all the art that has been historically stolen, the louvre would be half empty, the russians would have to give back all the stuff they pinched in the second world war..."

If everyone had to give back all the art that has been historically stolen then it can be a  good action for
international relations between countries and for a peace in the world....
Any english specialists can create  for the British Museum a copy of the Parthenon's marble.
White marble is rare and precious material to copy something in a marble.. If England has a marble's lack  then any english specialists  can create for a collection of  the British museum a gypsum's fake....

But an original of the Elgin marble (Parthenon's marble)  it is need to return to Greece.
The only legal  place for the Elgin marble (Parthenon's marble)  it is the Parthenon in Athens,Greece.
 

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Offline daveshorts

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Re: ELGIN MARBLES - should they be returned to greece.
« Reply #30 on: 22/12/2006 11:41:21 »
Yes but do we give the stuff back which we bought from someone who bought it from someone who stole it from a monastary 800 years ago? What about if the money used to make something came from stealing stuff in a war?  Or what happens if someone stole something due to a dodgy government order - should the british give back a third of their land to the Catholic Church? Or should the Catholic church give most of it's land to the druids?

Basically once you get more than a few generations ago it all gets silly. Some religion - sorry I can't remmeber which - has a rule on disputes which says, you are not allowed to argue about anything that happened more than 5 generations ago as it will just get silly, I think this is a pretty good principle.

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Offline Ophiolite

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Re: ELGIN MARBLES - should they be returned to greece.
« Reply #31 on: 22/12/2006 16:30:40 »
The only legal  place for the Elgin marble (Parthenon's marble)  it is the Parthenon in Athens,Greece.
as a resident of the north east of Scotland I can safely say the rightful place for the Elgin marbles is in Elgin. [;)]
Observe; collate; conjecture; analyse; hypothesise; test; validate; theorise. Repeat until complete.

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Offline ukmicky

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Re: ELGIN MARBLES - should they be returned to greece.
« Reply #32 on: 24/12/2006 00:27:12 »
Thankyou everybody i shall send the results of the poll to the Greek embassy

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Offline RRR

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Re: ELGIN MARBLES - should they be returned to greece.
« Reply #33 on: 24/12/2006 12:33:17 »
Happy Christmas to you!
==========================================================
DAVESHORTS DID WRITE: "OR SHOULD THE CATHOLIC CHURCH GIVE MOST OF IT'S LAND TO THE DRUIDS?"
The  druids did disappear 1000 years ago...
It is impossible  to give something to the druids because  the druids are not exist now. :))
==========================================================
DAVESHORTS DID WROTE: "SHOULD THE BRITISH GIVE BACK A THIRD OF THEIR LAND TO THE CATHOLIC CHURCH?"
For example, In Italy there was the  problem with lands  in relations between Italian government and Roman Popes... The Italian government did decide the problem  with the Latheran agreement between Italy and Vatican on February 11, 1929.  According to the Latheran agreement, the Catholic Church has not any territorial claims  to Italy but Italian government  did pay for it  a financial compensation  (with 1 000 000 000 US dollars of total payments ) to the Catholic Church .
 The United Kindgom and Vatican  can sign  an agreement similar to the Latheran agreement. between Italy and Vatican..
==========================================================
DAVESHORTS DID WRITE: ".. WE BOUGHT FROM SOMEONE WHO BOUGHT IT FROM SOMEONE WHO STOLE IT FROM A MONASTARY 800 YEARS AGO"
 If now  the monastary is exist   then it is need to return the thing to the monastary. :))
===========================================================================
DAVESHORTS DID WRITE: "WHAT ABOUT IF THE MONEY USED TO MAKE SOMETHING CAME FROM
STEALING  STUFF IN A WAR?"
If it is proved the moneys were stolen and if it is known a name of legal owner of the moneys then it is need to return the money to the legal owner.
===========================================================================
OPHIOLITE DID WRITE:"as a resident of the north east of Scotland I can safely say the rightful place for the Elgin marbles is in Elgin."
:)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
 ===========================================================================
HAPPY CHRISTMAS TO YOU! :)) 
 
 

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Offline daveshorts

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Re: ELGIN MARBLES - should they be returned to greece.
« Reply #34 on: 24/12/2006 15:45:34 »
But why should someone who just by fluke of being related to someone who died 1000 years ago have a stronger title to something than the person who has worked hard to earn the money to buy it, just because it was stolen 1000 years ago?

What about gold that has been melted down and changed into other things?

But all the land the catholic church owned, they only owned because local warlords stole stuff of their subjects and then felt guilty so gave it to the church, WHERE DO YOU STOP?

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Offline AlphBravo

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ELGIN MARBLES - should they be returned to greece.
« Reply #35 on: 30/03/2007 23:27:50 »
Given that the said marbles are actually a relief that crowns the Parthenon,(55mx1m approx of) they should be returned to the Parthenon, like how hard is it to replicate them, yes they are a very significant example of sculpture, but who really would know? Nothing like returning that which was essentially filched, by dodgy means.
 

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ELGIN MARBLES - should they be returned to greece.
« Reply #36 on: 31/03/2007 00:43:31 »
It was not
Nothing like returning that which was essentially filched, by dodgy means.

It was not filched by dodgy means.  It was bought under legitimate trade with the then recognised owners.  Ofcourse, this all goes back to the issue about whether the Greeks ever considered the Turks to be legitimate owners of anything Greek, but at the time there was no recognised Greek state.  The other problem is that the very value placed upon historic artifacts has changed with time (it is a little like selling some old painting you had in the attic, then later realising that the painting was really a masterpiece, and you had grossly undervalued it, and thus demanding it back - you sold it for what you thought it was worth at the time - that you later think it might be worth more is too late).

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Offline rosy

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ELGIN MARBLES - should they be returned to greece.
« Reply #37 on: 31/03/2007 11:12:08 »
Um.. interesting thread (and not one I noticed first time round...) but possibly not actually related to geology/paleantology as such? Nothing in it that isn't straight politics.

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another_someone

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ELGIN MARBLES - should they be returned to greece.
« Reply #38 on: 31/03/2007 15:44:23 »
Um.. interesting thread (and not one I noticed first time round...) but possibly not actually related to geology/paleantology as such? Nothing in it that isn't straight politics.

Agreed - so it has been moved.