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  4. Is geoengineering destroying life?
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Is geoengineering destroying life?

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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Is geoengineering destroying life?
« Reply #40 on: 09/04/2016 21:02:12 »
Dimethyl sulphate falls apart in water with a half life of a few hours.
Any study that says otherwise is wrong.

"Coal fly ash is a neurotoxicant no matter the origins of the particulates"
well, like I said, how lucky we are that people keep good control over it (most of the time; there's bound to be the odd cock-up)

This
"Sulfate aerosols releases toxic nanoparticles that may trigger diseases "
just doesn't make sense

"The governments obviously are aware of the toxicity and harmful effects of geoengineering."
That's why it isn't a silly question.
Why are they poisoning themselves?
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Offline smart (OP)

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Re: Is geoengineering destroying life?
« Reply #41 on: 09/04/2016 23:33:01 »
Quote
Although seemingly unacknowledged in publicly accessible reports and in scientific literature as a potential material for geoengineering, coal fly ash is one major global waste product stream with the appropriate grain-size distribution for aerosolized tropospheric spraying that is readily available at extremely low cost and with existent processing and transport infrastructure. The author submits the following hypothesis: Coal fly ash is most likely the aerosolized particulate sprayed in the troposphere by tanker-jets for geoengineering, weather-modification and climate-modification purposes

The ultra-fine particles of aerosolized coal fly ash do not remain at tanker-jet operational altitudes: they mix with and pollute the air people breathe. Tropospheric aerosol coal fly ash can potentially endanger humans through two primary routes: (1) ingestion of rainwater-extract of coal fly ash toxins, directly or after concentration by evaporation and (2) particulate intake through inhalation or through contact with the eyes or skin [20]. In the latter instance, harm to humans can arise from in situ body-fluid extraction of coal fly ash toxins [21] as well as from the consequences of tissue contact [22]. Coal fly ash that is PM2.5 is readily entrained in terminal airways and alveoli and retained in the lungs for long periods of time; the small grain size enables it to penetrate and reach deep within the airways where it can cause inflammation and pulmonary injury [23].

Coal fly ash contains a host of potentially leachable toxins, including aluminum, arsenic, barium, beryllium, boron, cadmium, chromium (III), chromium (IV), cobalt, lead, manganese, mercury, selenium, strontium, thallium, thorium, and uranium. Coal fly ash has been described as being more radioactive than nuclear waste [24]. Moreover, many of the most toxic elements are enriched in the PM2.5 component of coal fly ash [25]. Whether or not the coal fly ash used for geoengineering is selectively enriched in PM2.5 is not known, but enrichment in the small particle size fraction would be advantageous in yielding greater surface area for sunlight reflection.

CFA is cheap material. Dumping coal fly ash in the troposhere to offset global warming may have an impact on the environment and public health. I suggest you read up this paper to expand your knowledge on the risks and toxicity of geoengineering:

Evidence of Coal-Fly-Ash Toxic Chemical Geoengineering in the Troposphere: Consequences for Public Health: http://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/12/8/9375/htm

Quote
Why are they poisoning themselves?

I guess you meant "Why are we poisoning ourselves" ?

I'd say human stupidity is infinite. However, it seems secret societies have subverted democratic governments to promote their silly ideology. Anyways, I think the truth on geoengineering should probably become more obvious as scientific research now puts forward strong evidences of the toxicity of geoengineering, whether you like it or not...


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Offline smart (OP)

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Re: Is geoengineering destroying life?
« Reply #42 on: 10/04/2016 14:01:54 »
Quote
In the absence of viable other sources, the evidence is that the coal fly ash is likely the substance being placed in the atmosphere by tanker jets. That is consistent with the nature of the material, and its availability from existing production facilities. Yes, this needs to be proven conclusively. But it is a misrepresentation to state “is not clear what the source of these chemicals is”. Science involves the progressive replacing of less precise understanding with more precise understanding. Indeed, much of the current underlying understanding in the natural physical sciences is in a sense “preliminary” and subject to revision by subsequent more precise understanding, but that is no reason or basis to prevent publication of relevant evidence.

The retraction of Herndon paper provide evidences that a organization is committed to promote ignorance and deception about the toxicity of geoengineering.

Quote
How many additional children will suffer from autism? What unknown birth defects will come to light? Why should those with compromised immune and respiratory systems suffer? How many premature cases of Alzheimer’s will result? How many elderly will die prematurely? Why do women, the traditional protectors of the young, keep their silence? Where is their humanity? Instead of calling for debate on a future hypothetical, in my view McNutt should be calling for a Nuremberg-like Tribunal to bring to trial those responsible for the on-going toxic spraying which, I allege, constitutes crimes against humanity and crimes against Earth’s biota.

The dumping of coal fly ash particles in the troposhere constitute a crime against humanity: The pseudoscience of climate change is a fraud to create ignorance and deceit about this criminal activity.

http://nuclearplanet.com/scimag.html
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Offline RD

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Re: Is geoengineering destroying life?
« Reply #43 on: 10/04/2016 16:04:52 »
Quote from: tkadm30 on 10/04/2016 14:01:54
The retraction of Herndon paper provide evidences that a organization is committed to promote ignorance and deception about the toxicity of geoengineering.
Alternative explanation : his paper contained huge errors ... https://debunkingdenialism.com/2015/09/05/flawed-chemtrails-paper-by-herndon-retracted/
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Re: Is geoengineering destroying life?
« Reply #44 on: 10/04/2016 16:27:52 »
Quote from: RD on 10/04/2016 16:04:52
Alternative explanation : his paper contained huge errors ... https://debunkingdenialism.com/2015/09/05/flawed-chemtrails-paper-by-herndon-retracted/

The errors were corrected. Comments from the author about the retraction can be read here: http://nuclearplanet.com/public_rejection.pdf 
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Offline RD

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Re: Is geoengineering destroying life?
« Reply #45 on: 10/04/2016 16:50:14 »
Quote from: tkadm30 on 09/04/2016 23:33:01
...  I suggest you read up this paper to expand your knowledge on the risks and toxicity of geoengineering:

Evidence of Coal-Fly-Ash Toxic Chemical Geoengineering in the Troposphere: Consequences for Public Health: http://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/12/8/9375/htm

Quote from: Jeffrey Beall
... a paper that is a monumental example of pseudo-science. The article’s author is J. Marvin Herndon ... Publishing a paper in an MDPI journal only means that one is able to afford the author fee. It does not mean the paper represents valid, vetted science."
https://scholarlyoa.com/2015/08/25/more-pseudo-science-from-swiss-chinese-publisher-mdpi/
« Last Edit: 10/04/2016 17:07:05 by RD »
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Re: Is geoengineering destroying life?
« Reply #46 on: 10/04/2016 17:34:24 »

Quote
IJERPH is a member of the Committee on Publication Ethics (COPE). MDPI takes the responsibility to enforce a rigorous peer-review together with strict ethical policies and standards to ensure to add high quality scientific works to the field of scholarly publication. Unfortunately, cases of plagiarism, data falsification, inappropriate authorship credit, and the like, do arise. MDPI takes such publishing ethics issues very seriously and our editors are trained to proceed in such cases with a zero tolerance policy. To verify the originality of content submitted to our journals, we use CrossCheck (powered by iThenticate) to check submissions against previous publications. MDPI works with Publons to provide reviewers with credit for their work.

MDPI is a reputable peer-reviewed scientific journal and Dr. Marvin Herndon is a senior and internationally recognized scientist. See: http://www.nuclearplanet.com/advances.html

To deny that coal fly ash particles are toxic and to affirm that geoengineering is harmless is a blatant lie and an attempt to brainwash the public about typical geoengineering pseudoscience. Dr. Marvin Herndon papers and research on geoengineering is progression of the truth.

« Last Edit: 10/04/2016 18:29:55 by tkadm30 »
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Is geoengineering destroying life?
« Reply #47 on: 10/04/2016 19:49:38 »
Quote from: tkadm30 on 09/04/2016 23:33:01

I guess you meant "Why are we poisoning ourselves" ?

What a silly thing to guess.
I meant why are they poisoning themselves.
The drink the same water, eat the same food and breathe the same air.
If we get poisoned, so do they.
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Is geoengineering destroying life?
« Reply #48 on: 10/04/2016 19:53:57 »
Quote from: tkadm30 on 10/04/2016 17:34:24

Quote
IJERPH is a member of the Committee on Publication Ethics (COPE). MDPI takes the responsibility to enforce a rigorous peer-review together with strict ethical policies and standards to ensure to add high quality scientific works to the field of scholarly publication. Unfortunately, cases of plagiarism, data falsification, inappropriate authorship credit, and the like, do arise. MDPI takes such publishing ethics issues very seriously and our editors are trained to proceed in such cases with a zero tolerance policy. To verify the originality of content submitted to our journals, we use CrossCheck (powered by iThenticate) to check submissions against previous publications. MDPI works with Publons to provide reviewers with credit for their work.

MDPI is a reputable peer-reviewed scientific journal and Dr. Marvin Herndon is a senior and internationally recognized scientist. See: http://www.nuclearplanet.com/advances.html

To deny that coal fly ash particles are toxic and to affirm that geoengineering is harmless is a blatant lie and an attempt to brainwash the public about typical geoengineering pseudoscience. Dr. Marvin Herndon papers and research on geoengineering is progression of the truth.


Nobody denies that the stuff is toxic.
But the only people who say it is being used for "geoengineering" in the way you suggest are frittloops.
There is no evidence to support that suggestion.
Re. "MDPI is a reputable peer-reviewed scientific journal "
No it is not. Not if they publish stuff like that.
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Offline smart (OP)

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Re: Is geoengineering destroying life?
« Reply #49 on: 10/04/2016 20:27:20 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 10/04/2016 19:53:57
Nobody denies that the stuff is toxic.
But the only people who say it is being used for "geoengineering" in the way you suggest are frittloops.
There is no evidence to support that suggestion.
Re. "MDPI is a reputable peer-reviewed scientific journal "
No it is not. Not if they publish stuff like that.

The true conspiracy theory is the non-sense idea that "contrails, or condensation trails, are "streaks of condensed water vapor created in the air by an airplane or rocket at high altitudes". The clandestine geoengineering hypothesis of Dr. Marvin Herndon at least provide an intelligent explanation to this phenomenon. Thus, I believe either you're being disinformed or you refuse to admit the toxicity of geoengineering, even when confronted to a peer-reviewed scientific study. How could you contribute to a scientific forum if you omit to examine the evidences?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemtrail_conspiracy_theory#Contrails_as_chemtrails
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Is geoengineering destroying life?
« Reply #50 on: 10/04/2016 20:47:57 »
Why do you think this is nonsense
The true conspiracy theory is the non-sense idea that "contrails, or condensation trails, are "streaks of condensed water vapor created in the air by an airplane or rocket at high altitudes".
please include actual physics in your answer.

I had a look at the evidence it was poor.
I have seen better from students.
Nobody disputes the toxicity of ash.
But there is no evidence of the "goengineeering" you speak of, and if there were it would raise the question you keep failing to answer.
Why are "they" poisoning themselves?
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Offline RD

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Re: Is geoengineering destroying life?
« Reply #51 on: 11/04/2016 00:55:15 »
Quote from: tkadm30 on 10/04/2016 17:34:24
MDPI is a reputable peer-reviewed scientific journal ...

A publication who sends the authors of published papers an invoice [$300-$1500] ...
 [ Invalid Attachment ]
http://www.mdpi.com/editorial_process

cf. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanity_press

* EditorialProcedure.png (62.46 kB, 877x620 - viewed 2632 times.)
« Last Edit: 11/04/2016 01:09:38 by RD »
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Offline smart (OP)

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Re: Is geoengineering destroying life?
« Reply #52 on: 11/04/2016 11:46:34 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 10/04/2016 20:47:57
Why do you think this is nonsense
The true conspiracy theory is the nonsense idea that "contrails, or condensation trails, are "streaks of condensed water vapor created in the air by an airplane or rocket at high altitudes".

Water vapor do not condense to create artificial clouds.

Quote from: Bored chemist
I had a look at the evidence it was poor.
I have seen better from students.
Nobody disputes the toxicity of ash.
But there is no evidence of the "goengineeering" you speak of, and if there were it would raise the question you keep failing to answer.
Why are "they" poisoning themselves?

You fail to understand that "we" are responsible for our governments actions. How could you even understand more complex phenomenons like geoengineering? Your arrogance is not an appropriate method to discuss and learn on a science forum.
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Offline RD

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Re: Is geoengineering destroying life?
« Reply #53 on: 11/04/2016 20:21:56 »
Quote from: tkadm30 on 11/04/2016 11:46:34
Water vapor do not condense to create artificial clouds.

Pressure changes can cause invisible transparent water-vapour in the air to condense into visible white clouds , which can be trails , see ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wingtip_vortices#Aerodynamic_condensation_and_freezing

« Last Edit: 11/04/2016 20:25:24 by RD »
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Is geoengineering destroying life?
« Reply #54 on: 11/04/2016 20:30:58 »
Quote from: tkadm30 on 11/04/2016 11:46:34

Water vapor do not condense to create artificial clouds.

You fail to understand that "we" are responsible for our governments actions. How could you even understand more complex phenomenons like geoengineering?
Your arrogance is not an appropriate method to discuss and learn on a science forum.

Artificial clouds have been produced since at least as far back as the cloud chamber
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloud_chamber
they are now used for studying fast particles, but the original point was to create artificial clouds for weather studies.
So, once again, it would be good if you did the research before postign stuff that was nonsense.

"You fail to understand that "we" are responsible for our governments actions. "
No I am not.
And the point is moot.
Why would "they" or "we" be deliberately poisoning ourselves?

I'm fairly arrogant;but I'm not arrogant enough to dismiss the whole of science- which is what you are doing her.
If you feel that arrogance is a problem you need to stop displaying even more of it than I do.
"How could you even understand more complex phenomenons like geoengineering? " I do understand it and i therefore understand why your claims are nonsense.
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Offline smart (OP)

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Re: Is geoengineering destroying life?
« Reply #55 on: 11/04/2016 21:39:36 »
Quote from: RD on 11/04/2016 20:21:56
Pressure changes can cause invisible transparent water-vapour in the air to condense into visible white clouds , which can be trails ,

The use of a (ultrasonic?) nozzle to spray the aerosols from planes and generate artificial clouds has been documented. See: http://climate.envsci.rutgers.edu/pdf/GRLreview2.pdf 

Quote
Options for dispersing gases from planes include the addition of sulfur to the fuel, which would release the aerosol through the exhaust system of the plane, or the attachment of a nozzle to  release  the  sulfur  from  its  own  tank  within  the  plane,  which  would  be  the  better  option.   
...
Unlike the small jet fighter planes, the KC-135 and KC-10 are used to refuel planes mid-flight and already have a nozzle installed.

You seem to be confusing a "contrail" with a "chemtrail"...
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Is geoengineering destroying life?
« Reply #56 on: 11/04/2016 21:53:46 »
Quote from: tkadm30 on 11/04/2016 21:39:36
Quote from: RD on 11/04/2016 20:21:56
Pressure changes can cause invisible transparent water-vapour in the air to condense into visible white clouds , which can be trails ,

The use of a (ultrasonic?) nozzle to spray the aerosols from planes and generate artificial clouds has been documented. See: http://climate.envsci.rutgers.edu/pdf/GRLreview2.pdf 

Quote
Options for dispersing gases from planes include the addition of sulfur to the fuel, which would release the aerosol through the exhaust system of the plane, or the attachment of a nozzle to  release  the  sulfur  from  its  own  tank  within  the  plane,  which  would  be  the  better  option.   
...
Unlike the small jet fighter planes, the KC-135 and KC-10 are used to refuel planes mid-flight and already have a nozzle installed.

You seem to be confusing a "contrail" with a "chemtrail"...
No. Broadly speaking the suggestion of using ultrasonic nozzles has been documented.
Just because someone looked at the possibility of doing something is no reason to believe that it is actually in use.
There's one notable point from that report "Using existing U.S. military fighter and tanker planes, the
annual costs of injecting aerosol precursors into the lower stratosphere would be several billion
dollars" So it would cost a lot of money.
Why bother?
Well, this is just about plausible " to cool the planet and reduce global warming. "
But they still wouldn't use dimethyl sulphate would they?

"You seem to be confusing a "contrail" with a "chemtrail"... "
There's a simple difference.
Contrails actually exist, but chemtrails don't
 (except in things like the smoke trails used in air shows and a very small number of cloud seeding events)
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Offline smart (OP)

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Re: Is geoengineering destroying life?
« Reply #57 on: 11/04/2016 22:52:22 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 11/04/2016 21:53:46
Contrails actually exist, but chemtrails don't



Ignorance is bliss... How could one pretend geoengineering (chemtrails) is not a on-going clandestine activity to mitigate global warming? We need to educate the masses about the potentially toxic effects of geoengineering on public health, unless we consent to be poisoned on a daily basis.

Quote
Climate engineering, also referred to as geoengineering or climate intervention,[1] is the deliberate and large-scale intervention in the Earth’s climatic system with the aim of limiting adverse climate change

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_engineering
« Last Edit: 13/04/2016 16:31:45 by tkadm30 »
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Offline RD

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Re: Is geoengineering destroying life?
« Reply #58 on: 12/04/2016 03:17:09 »
 [ Invalid Attachment ]


If chemical smoke was being released from the airliner, why is there a gap between the engines and the white trails ? , ( the kind of gap which would occur if they were due to condensation ).

BTW the white smoke from a single "Red Arrow" uses 45 litres of diesel per minute.
Q. theoretically, how much alleged chemical must the airliner be carrying to produce 4 chemtrails for say six hours. A ~60,000Kg, which is more than the weight of all the passengers.

* mind the gap.jpg (82.94 kB, 800x419 - viewed 2224 times.)
« Last Edit: 12/04/2016 03:54:32 by RD »
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Re: Is geoengineering destroying life?
« Reply #59 on: 12/04/2016 11:35:44 »
Quote from: RD on 12/04/2016 03:17:09
If chemical smoke was being released from the airliner, why is there a gap between the engines and the white trails ? , ( the kind of gap which would occur if they were due to condensation ).

The "gap" effect could be the result of silver iodide vapor emitted from the heat of burning charcoal. Coal fly ash is a natural source of charcoal...

Quote
To produce silver iodide smoke, charcoal is burned in a stream of air. The heat of burning charcoal vaporizes the silver iodide at the surface. The resultant silver iodide vapor is rapidly condensed and diluted by the moving air stream to form an invisible smoke.

https://books.google.ca/books?id=QB4SBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA34&lpg=PA34&dq=silver+iodide+fly+ash&source=bl&ots=oYKza0-8bS&sig=q_s0aq58A6Ij5W-R2SoH-gzNnCU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjI59Lm7IjMAhVix4MKHQ1pDYYQ6AEIHDAA#v=onepage&q=silver%20iodide%20fly%20ash&f=false

More evidences here: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0095852250900043

N.B: the use of silver iodide smoke to create artificial clouds is not new. See Project Stormfury: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Stormfury
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