[Counterpoints]

As I said previously, I think it's very possible these problems could be psychologically rooted.  No-one seems to want to hear that, because it implies that their condition isn't "serious", or that it's "all in the head". (Girlwind described it very well ). That's not what I mean.  The mind is extremely powerful, and can change its chemistry through our experiences.  There is no profound distinction between "psychological" and "physical": traditionally psychological problems often have *chemical* causes.  And people are genetically predisposed to depression, and other psychological issues.  And depression, schizophrenia, and other conditions can often be diagnosed just by looking at brain metabolism!

This is somewhat counter to the old 'conventional wisdom' that we can easily switch on and off such problems with conscious effort; that we can "not let it get to us".  That there is no difference between person A and person B, except that person A is choosing to obsess about something. (Girlwind's above description about self-willed sickness). Or that person A is just weak. Not true!

So if "psychological" IS "physical", why have a distinction at all?  This is a very good question that probably isn't asked often enough.  The distinction, in my opinion, is that psychological ailments often
1) are provoked by environmental stimuli
2) are more likely to improve with determined, long-term, conscious effort
3) involve brain chemistry

Now, assuming this problem were psychologically rooted, why would it be triggered by orgasm, and not just sexual activity? 

Orgasm is a very powerful experience -- to anyone. And it affects people differently.  Often it's said to have a calming or soporific effect.  Endorphins are released, prolactin is released, dopamine decreases.  It profoundly affects both the heart and the mind.  In fact, it is increasingly being recommended by medical doctors that people have sex *with* orgasm at least once a day.  Supposedly it is healthy for the mind and body.

So, orgasm having such a pronounced affect on our bodies does differentiate it from other sexual experiences.  It could be triggering a chemical imbalance we are psychologically prone to -- a chemical imbalance that is stimulated by the chemistry changing effects of orgasm, our own fears of orgasm, and the consequences we feel it certainly will have.

Now, assuming the problem is psychosomatic, how would it change our approach?  It would cause us to try more psychiatric medications -- possibly antidepressants, or meds for schizophrenia, OCD, or some non-disruptive anti anxiety medications like buspirone, etc.  Further, assuming a psychosomatic problem would cause us to try not to obsess about it; instead we would put all of our energy into forgetting about it and feeling well.  And it would cause us to eat a healthy diet, to exercise, and to socialize.  And it may cause us to try and examine the roots of our  problems with sex/orgasm, and overcome them. 

This does not seem so bad.  The prospect of trying psych drugs may seem unwelcome, but it's better than not trying anything, and almost certainly continuing to live in agony.  The rest of the stuff we should try to do anyways.

What do I think?
I think this is a complicated problem.  In some ways, it doesn't fit with traditional psychosomatic issues.  On the other hand, while some of our symptoms are remarkably similar, many of them are very different.  Given that this is such a rare condition, I assume some of these differences are primarily psychologically driven -- meaning we could likely make them go away with a lot of effort.  I don't think we should be closed-minded to the prospect that there could be psychological issues, and we should keep in mind that psychological problems are a category of physical problems, just like vision problems are a category of physical problems.
 
I think we're doing very well trying to better understand what POIS could be, coming up with theories, and experimenting with solutions.  It's wonderful that we have witnessed, in this very dialogue, someone with severe POIS symptoms undergo a seemingly complete recovery (with beta blockers).  And it's great that others seem to be improving with their tests -- myself included!  I think we desperately need this problem to be rigorously examined by western medical practitioners, and girlwind's video, and this questionnaire: http://pois.olympe-network.com are moving us in the right direction.

 

[Finally]

Thinking POIS is psychosomatic is a logical conclusion for anyone who hasn't experienced it, the problem is unimaginable to them. How to explain it? Good luck!  [:)]

As Girlwind explained, history is full of misunderstood conditions that came to light over time....and it ain't over yet.

Since it took time to see the connection I would say it would not be Psychosomatic.  Otherwise wouldn't the guilty thought that orgasm caused it be Prent at the earliest occurrence.
One thing that we were taught as a good catholic is that sex before marriage is wrong but that all of holy matrimony and particularly that of Procreation then becomes a good thing and punishment is no longer eleventh.
Although my situation doesn't apply are there those who experienced these symptoms and then got married. Did they lessen, Stay the same or get worse because you had sex more often?

[girlwind]

As I said previously, I think it's very possible these problems could be psychologically rooted.  No-one seems to want to hear that, because it implies that their condition isn't "serious", or that it's "all in the head". (Girlwind described it very well ). That's not what I mean.  The mind is extremely powerful, and can change its chemistry through our experiences.  There is no profound distinction between "psychological" and "physical": traditionally psychological problems often have *chemical* causes.  And people are genetically predisposed to depression, and other psychological issues.  And depression, schizophrenia, and other conditions can often be diagnosed just by looking at brain metabolism!

This is somewhat counter to the old 'conventional wisdom' that we can easily switch on and off such problems with conscious effort; that we can "not let it get to us".  That there is no difference between person A and person B, except that person A is choosing to obsess about something. (Girlwind's above description about self-willed sickness). Or that person A is just weak. Not true!

So if "psychological" IS "physical", why have a distinction at all?  This is a very good question that probably isn't asked often enough.  The distinction, in my opinion, is that psychological ailments often
1) are provoked by environmental stimuli
2) are more likely to improve with determined, long-term, conscious effort
3) involve brain chemistry

I understand your argument, but see holes in it. The idea that psychological problems have chemical causes is
the argument of modern psychiatry, which at this point is driven by the pharmaceutical industry and its desire
to make a profit by altering our brain chemistry with their often toxic mood altering concoctions. Not that there
is absolutely no place for these happy tablets. I will albeit reluctantly admit that there are certain situations where
they might be temporarily helpful, until a less toxic long term solution is found.

However, I have to ask how many psychiatrists do you know who would actually even bother investigating very
important factors like nutritional deficiencies, hormonal imbalances and environmental toxins as the causes of
some serious "psychological" conditions? None that I know. They are completely omitted from psychiatric intake
agendas. Yet there are food allergies that can make people seriously depressed. There are nutritional deficiencies
that can negatively alter one's mood, severely. And there are toxins in our environment that are now proven to
upset both the endocrine and nervous system. Many petro-chemically based products--paints, carpets, cleaners,
laundry soaps and cosmetics contain amounts of these neuro toxins, xeno-estrogens and endocrine disruptors.
(They had a segment on the NBS news several years ago about mice that went into a coma from being exposed
for a few hours to the chemicals in new carpets. How's that for altering your brain chemistry!!!)

So personally, I don't buy the theory that those of us with POIS have to have our brain chemicals "re-set" by some
kind of pharmaceutical in order to get over our problem. I am certain that I'm not deficient in Prozac.   []
And also, I  don't know anyone in this modern culture of ours who is truly sexually "healthy," and has not had issues
of some kind around sex. I know 3 women who were raped, one quite brutally, but  none of them have POIS. I also
have known quite a few people who were molested as children, and none of them have POIS. I was not molested
or abused sexually, and yet I do have it. So  I do agree  that this problem is more complex than we can understand
so far.

Also you mentioned the beta-blocker cure, but forgot about the garlic.

[William]

As a victim of POIS and a sufferer, I've come to terms with the losing battle, after being in constant denial for years.I've now concluded thats its much more profound than just being psychosomatic.I'm certain its a genetic predisposition, much like my scoliosis. I followed the effects closely over the years and thought of every possible scenario that's responsible for triggering the symptoms. As a results I've already lost 3 relationships due to lack of energy, physically and mentaly which settles in for 3 days and mysteriously disappears. Yes the effects very slighly to a certain degree in all of us but they're all very similar.What's frustrating about it, is explaining to your partner and having her wait days before having another sexual ritual, epecially if she is a sexual being and has a high sex drive. This made things extremely difficult and as frustrating as this was, in simply english, I was labelled as someone with only a low sex drive but none of them had to endure the unhealthy impliciton afterwards! I'm 27 and things are looking grim, on a positive note if there is one, this does deter me from forming relationships to having me concentrate more on school.

[Counterpoints]

I understand your argument, but see holes in it. The idea that psychological problems have chemical causes is
the argument of modern psychiatry, which at this point is driven by the pharmaceutical industry and its desire
to make a profit by altering our brain chemistry with their often toxic mood altering concoctions. Not that there
is absolutely no place for these happy tablets. I will albeit reluctantly admit that there are certain situations where
they might be temporarily helpful, until a less toxic long term solution is found.

I'm not arguing with you -- it was coincidental my post followed shortly after yours.  Also, I don't see the "holes" you are referring to.  You are suggesting that psychiatry is driven by profit-seeking pharmaceutical industries, and thereby putting into question the proposition that psychological problems have chemical causes.  I don't see the hole; you're questioning the credibility of a source, with a reasonable observation.  I can very easily question the credibility of naturopathic practioners, or pretty much anyone providing a service, in a similar way. It does happen, however, that the source you refer to (western medical profession) is the most scientifically credible source available. Not to mention, the research goes deeper than the opinions of psychiatrists.  You can use functional scanning to tag neurotransmitter activity in the brain, as well as brain metabolism, and researchers have found significant differences between those with severe psychological conditions, and those who are relatively problem free.  Further, the effect drugs have on our mood -- the fact opiates make us feel euphoric, alcohol decreases inhibition, amphetamines act as stimulates -- is testament to the extent to which chemicals affect our mind.

However, I have to ask how many psychiatrists do you know who would actually even bother investigating very
important factors like nutritional deficiencies, hormonal imbalances and environmental toxins as the causes of
some serious "psychological" conditions? None that I know. They are completely omitted from psychiatric intake
agendas. Yet there are food allergies that can make people seriously depressed. There are nutritional deficiencies
that can negatively alter one's mood, severely. And there are toxins in our environment that are now proven to
upset both the endocrine and nervous system. Many petro-chemically based products--paints, carpets, cleaners,
laundry soaps and cosmetics contain amounts of these neuro toxins, xeno-estrogens and endocrine disruptors.
(They had a segment on the NBS news several years ago about mice that went into a coma from being exposed
for a few hours to the chemicals in new carpets. How's that for altering your brain chemistry!!!)

Some psychiatrists do consider these factors.  General practitioners will as well.   It's well known (and accepted by the medical profession) that environmental toxins can detrimentally affect brain chemistry.  Either way, I don't see the "hole" here; you are giving examples of how brain chemistry cause psychological symptoms.

So personally, I don't buy the theory that those of us with POIS have to have our brain chemicals "re-set" by some
kind of pharmaceutical in order to get over our problem. I am certain that I'm not deficient in Prozac.   []
And also, I  don't know anyone in this modern culture of ours who is truly sexually "healthy," and has not had issues
of some kind around sex. I know 3 women who were raped, one quite brutally, but  none of them have POIS. I also
have known quite a few people who were molested as children, and none of them have POIS. I was not molested
or abused sexually, and yet I do have it. So  I do agree  that this problem is more complex than we can understand
so far.

I hear this a lot.  "I don't have a prozac deficiency".  "I don't have an aspirin deficiency".  The "I don't have an ___ deficiency" is a mantra in naturopathic medicine.  But it's a rhetorical argument, not a substantive one. Just because you don't have an "aspirin deficiency" doesn't mean that aspirin won't stop your headache.  Just because you are not deficient in something doesn't mean that thing won't fix the underlying problem.  I could give many examples of this.

But I never said "those of us with POIS have to have our brain chemicals "re-set" by some kind of pharmaceutical in order to get over our problem."  I listed psycho-active pharmaceuticals as part of a logical approach to psychological ailments.

Also you mentioned the beta-blocker cure, but forgot about the garlic.

I didn't explicitly mention Levitra, either. 

I really don't think people are understanding the nuance in what I am suggesting.  In the end, I am arguing that psychological *is* physical, so one cannot briskly discount the possible psychological nature of a condition like this, and that we should keep an open mind.  I don't think I understand this problem, and it does seem complex to me, and different than typical psychological issues.

[Counterpoints]

As a victim of POIS and a sufferer, I've come to terms with the losing battle, after being in constant denial for years.I've now concluded thats its much more profound than just being psychosomatic.I'm certain its a genetic predisposition, much like my scoliosis. I followed the effects closely over the years and thought of every possible scenario that's responsible for triggering the symptoms. As a results I've already lost 3 relationships due to lack of energy, physically and mentaly which settles in for 3 days and mysteriously disappears. Yes the effects very slighly to a certain degree in all of us but they're all very similar.What's frustrating about it, is explaining to your partner and having her wait days before having another sexual ritual, epecially if she is a sexual being and has a high sex drive. This made things extremely difficult and as frustrating as this was, in simply english, I was labelled as someone with only a low sex drive but none of them had to endure the unhealthy impliciton afterwards! I'm 27 and things are looking grim, on a positive note if there is one, this does deter me from forming relationships to having me concentrate more on school.

Welcome William.  Do not give up hope.  We have had long and severe post-orgasm sufferers here who have near completely alleviated their symptoms.

Feel free to fill out the form at http://pois.olympe-network.com
It will contribute to our search for help.

[girlwind]

The source you refer to (western medical profession) is the most scientifically credible source available.

So how credible really is this most scientifically credible source? Here's an article from the editor of the Journal of the
AMA, that addresses the tip of the iceberg of the problem of how PHARMACEUTICAL COMPANIES AND OTHER FOR PROFIT
COMPANIES fund a MAJOR PART of current medical research.    http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/short/284/17/2237

"This issue of THE JOURNAL contains a cluster of articles that address students', residents', and faculty members' conflicts
of interest with pharmaceutical and other companies that financially sponsor teaching and research. Why is this important?
University-based educators and researchers, as well as private practitioners, are in frequent contact with representatives from
for-profit companies that provide "gifts" and financial support for teaching and research. The enticement begins very early in
a physician's career: for my classmates and me, it started with black bags."

It's well known (and accepted by the medical profession) that environmental toxins can detrimentally affect brain chemistry.

Well-known and accepted??? I DON'T THINK SO! If the medical profession TRULY accepted just how detrimental
environmental toxins are, they would be teaching everyone in medical school about the importance of eating all
organically grown (pesticide and preservative free) foods, using all green (formaldehyde and chemical-free) building
materials, furniture, and cleaning products in their homes. They would take the mercury based preservatives (like
Themerosol) out of child vaccinations--like they do in Europe. And they would recognize that many of the behavioral
and mood disorders they are treating with questionable psycho-active chemical concoctions (with both known and
unknown side-effects) MIGHT POSSIBLY be treated much more safely with much less potentially hazardous and health-
endangering alternatives.

Not to mention, the research goes deeper than the opinions of psychiatrists.  You can use functional scanning to tag neurotransmitter activity in the brain, as well as brain metabolism, and researchers have found significant differences between those with severe psychological conditions, and those who are relatively problem free.  Further, the effect drugs have on our mood -- the fact opiates make us feel euphoric, alcohol decreases inhibition, amphetamines act as stimulates -- is testament to the extent to which chemicals affect our mind....

Just because you are not deficient in something doesn't mean that thing won't fix the underlying problem.  I could give many examples of this.

But I never said "those of us with POIS have to have our brain chemicals "re-set" by some kind of pharmaceutical in order to get over our problem."  I listed psycho-active pharmaceuticals as part of a logical approach to psychological ailments.

Yes, there is a connection between brain chemistry and psychological problems. The "hole" in your argument is where
you skip the part about the thoroughly and deeply investigating the CAUSE of ALL the MANY FACTORS that influence
our brain chemistry (besides the debatable part about just how much genetics is involved), and jump to the conclusion
of psycho-active pharmaceuticals being "part of a logical approach to psychological ailments."

There are even some psychiatrists who would strongly disagree with the idea of this logic.
 http://www.prozacbacklash.com/

"Harvard psychiatrist Joseph Glenmullen finds such brain-altering effects more unsettling than intriguing. Last year
he published Prozac Backlash: Overcoming the Dangers of Prozac, Zoloft, Paxil, and Other Antidepressants with Safe,
Effective Alternatives, a book that details his brief against the drugs.

They cause far more serious and common side effects than their manufacturers report. The Food and Drug
Administration has failed to sufficiently investigate these reports; patients' complaints about the drugs are largely
ignored; and the drugs are prescribed too often and for far too broad a range of distress...

Glenmullen has long suspected that drugs that alter serotonin metabolism cause profound changes in the brain.
He bases his suspicion on a body of research during the last 20 years by scientists investigating another class of
drugs that includes MDMA (Ecstasy) as well as fenfluramine, the diet drug recently removed from the market because
of its association with heart valve problems.

These drugs do more than just block serotonin reuptake; they primarily stimulate the release of large quantities of
serotonin from nerve endings into the brain. The resulting flood is thought to cause the mind-altering effects of
MDMA. And that flood, some scientists argue, leaves brain damage in its wake.

When monkeys and rats are given high doses of serotonin releasers -- up to 40 times the dose that people generally
take -- the microscopic architecture of their brains looks different from normal brains. The nerve fibers (axons) that
carry serotonin to the target cells seem to change their shape and diminish in number -- effects some scientists claim
are properly understood as brain damage.

In Glenmullen's view, regulatory agencies don't always do enough to help consumers either. He devoted a chapter
in his book to the FDA's decision to allow Lilly not to include a warning with Prozac that the drug can cause or worsen
suicidal symptoms.

Add the advertising campaigns by the drug companies, he says, and you have a social climate in which "everyone
wants a serotonin booster" and everyone believes in a "pharmacological fantasy" that we can use mood-altering drugs
for a variety of ills without giving serious thought to the potential danger.


Of course the use of any drug, especially one that tinkers with the brain's machinery, involves risk, the full extent
of which can't be known until a large number of people have used it for many years.

This familiar caution may take on a new urgency when we realize that research about serotonin enhancers still
offers more questions than answers."


With a problem as complex as POIS, there are so many variables to consider--like the ones mentioned before:
nutritional deficiencies, endocrine imbalances, food allergies, and adverse effects (on on our brain, nervous and
endocrine systems) of environmental toxins. 

My conclusion about psycho-active pharmaceuticals: Having an open mind can be a good thing, as long as it
does not give you a hole in the head.

[demografx]

Quote from: Counterpoints on Today at 01:32:40
As I said previously, I think it's very possible these problems could be psychologically rooted. 


Counterpoints, I disagree.

You are very eloquent in your reasoning and depth. On the other hand, I - on the potential psychological rootedness of POIS - am simply relying on my intuition and experience living with POIS for 30+ years, and trying every manner of attack under the sun, both in trying to understand it and in attempting to cure it.

[demografx]

POIS IS BACK!

Release was about one hour ago, Levitra 10mg about two hours ago.

Now I know why I've avoided release even after stumbling on a 75% POIS cure (with Levitra).

I can't stand the 25% !!!!!  [:-'(]

My main symptom right now is "burning/dried up fingertips" (not exactly that, but it's the closest that I can describe). In addition to ADHD stimulants this morning, I'm now on my 2nd cup of strong coffee....and that helps.

As I mentioned previously, the "burning/dried up fingertips" drive me NUTZ! 20 years ago, I probed that with a psychotherapist and he couldn't understand why I was so disturbed about it even though the physical symptom is mild (maybe "extra warm/dried up" is more realistic than "burning/dried up"). My only conclusion is that the "extra warm/dried up fingertips" are symbolic of other things going on, such as disorientation. Don't ask me why.

Perhaps writing this helps, because I feel better already.

[demografx]

NAUSEA

Nausea is not always present with POIS onset, but this time it is. Overcaffeinating may have something to do with it. Reglan works well for the nausea, and Zantac for the caffeine.

[demografx]

WILLIAM

Welcome to the POIS Forum! Thank you very much for sharing your experience and I look forward to more of your contributions.

[martin88]

Having an open mind can be a good thing, as long as it
does not give you a hole in the head.

[]

Why not ? Our brain fog will escape !

[demografx]

Having an open mind can be a good thing, as long as it
does not give you a hole in the head.

[]

Why not ? Our brain fog will escape !

martin, haha, good one!

[demografx]

POIS IS BACK - PART II

whoops, there goes another one []. Bracing for another fall, but hoping that this morning's 10 mg Levitra will cover both!

[demografx]

I definitely do not consider you a victim or a whiner! More like a resilient persevering survivor. I think everyone on this forum
would agree that you are one of the most, if not the most, welcoming, supportive and upbeat of the people here. I empathize
with what you've been through and am grateful that you have been willing to share so many of your experiences.

GIRLWIND, I must admit I became emotional reading your post today and your compliments. It proves to me that sometimes people DO understand! Perhaps there is a bright side to all the ignoramuses about your conditions that you've suffered for so many years: you now have tremendous empathy for others' similar situations! Thank you!
 

[girlwind]

Having an open mind can be a good thing, as long as it
does not give you a hole in the head.

[]

Why not ? Our brain fog will escape !

martin, haha, good one!

I'm glad to see the humor at the end of my long diatribe reflected back on me. I think I will paint a picture
of brain fog escaping.

[girlwind]

I definitely do not consider you a victim or a whiner! More like a resilient persevering survivor. I think everyone on this forum
would agree that you are one of the most, if not the most, welcoming, supportive and upbeat of the people here. I empathize
with what you've been through and am grateful that you have been willing to share so many of your experiences.

GIRLWIND, I must admit I became emotional reading your post today and your compliments. It proves to me that sometimes people DO understand! Perhaps there is a bright side to all the ignoramuses about your conditions that you've suffered for so many years: you now have tremendous empathy for others' similar situations! Thank you!
 

Demografx--I know I'm not the only one who feels this way. My hope is that you recognize this in yourself,
as I'm sure others recognizeit in you.

The support I get here, from just reading other people's experiences, clears away much of the confusion I feel
about this condition, as well as the self-doubt that makes me second guess myself so much when I have
symptoms. I am very happy to be a part of this really intelligent and spirited forum.

[demografx]

I and my 25% POIS are going to sleep now, feeling better in the knowledge that I'm now part of a  _community_  of sufferers, not just me against the world. G'night.......

[Counterpoints]

Girlwind: Giving rats 40 times a typical human SSRI dose, and seeing problems, is not going to convince me that SSRIs are dangerous.  Also, this guy you've linked has a book out about the dangers of SSRIs.  He may believe some of what he says, but he cannot be objective about this -- it's in his best interests to be critical of SSRIs.  He profits from doing it.  A lot of this is self-promotion.  Otherwise, he would publishing peer-reviewed journal articles, not books.  If you can find articles in "Nature" or other reputable journals, I will take them more seriously.

Yes, a lot (but not all) research on these pharmaceuticals is funded by the producers.  This certainly puts their objectivity into question.  On the other hand, they are publishing in medical journals with very high standards -- journals which are seen to have the utmost credibility in the scientific community.  What makes these journals credible?  In part, the extremely rigorous peer-review process, and the fact that the results of publications show to be reliable in the long run, show to be significant, show to have superior predictive power to the alternatives, and judgments made from these journal results often continue scientific progress. 

Also, if a pharmaceutical company omits presenting known dangers of a drug, they are likely to lose a lot of money in lawsuits.  And this has happened.  Conversely, the critics are not in nearly as much danger.  They can make vague claims against the drug and won't lose much for doing so -- particularly since most critics are not under public scrutiny.  Consequently, the pharmaceutical companies are often held to a higher degree of accountability than the critics.

Anyways, this discussion is probably more suited to a thread of its own .  At this point I am just trying to counter-balance the argument against SSRIs; I don't think this has much relevance to POIS.  My point here is that it isn't so black and white, and it is highly credible that SSRIs are one of many logical approaches to psychological problems.  Every approach will have its critics, and we have to examine the credibility of the evidence on both sides.

[demografx]

POIS DAY ONE

(Release Day = Day Zero)

Feeling much better today. Needed much sleep last night. Writing this from bed to conserve energy. Prior to Levitra, today would be "lost".

Levitra is clearly not a placebo effect; it has been very consistent for many months now in curing my POIS 75%.

If I up the dose to 20mg I might find a 100% POIS cure, but I'm still a bit leery of the "dangers" of Levitra found on the Internet. Perhaps unfounded, but I'm not willing to take a chance; frankly, even the 10 mg makes me nervous, even though I need it legitimately for my ED.

I'm taking too many pharmaceuticals for my comfort level, anyway.

I hope we all will find 100% relief. I don't know about you, but I wonder if my life would have turned out differently if I didn't have POIS. I do know it has ruined a good chunk of it. Either during POIS itself, or anticipating it.

In one short year, the progress on this Board has been utterly phenomenal. Three cheers for POIS Group therapy!