[demografx]

At least, we in the West have gotten beyond illness viewed as "demonic possession." []  Or maybe we've just exchanged the term "demons" for that of psycho-pathology.

girlwind, this is great. But I still need to know if my periodic depression is caused by black or yellow bile. I'm also considering a POIS cure of blood-letting []

[demografx]

post-chronic, you sound like you have some serious scientific training in your background, is that correct?

[demografx]

I think this is...perhaps a problem with the adrenal glands.

Counterpoints, this is exactly what a longtime Oriental medicine practitioner concluded about my POIS years ago. Specifically, she said my adrenal glands were "too small" - presumably to withstand the shock of orgasm?

[Counterpoints]

Demografx: I'm not an expert in physiology, and I haven't carefully studied the adrenal gland possibility -- I plan to do so soon -- but here are some loose points I have collected, in a somewhat disorganized way, over time.

- Orgasm affects dopamine levels
- Very low dopamine levels associated with many of the symptoms we have experienced (see ref. 1).
- Very high dopamine levels can also cause some of our symptoms (I remember reading this in the past - a good ref. would be useful).
- Dopamine is a catecholamine closely related to adrenaline and noradrenaline
- The adrenal glands chiefly responsible for regulating the "stress" response through the synthesis of corticosteroids and
catecholamines (wikipedia).
- Adrenal glands produce the catecholamine hormones adrenaline (epinephrine) and noradrenaline (norepinephrine). These water-soluble hormones, derived from the amino acid tyrosine, are part of the fight-or-flight response initiated by the sympathetic nervous system. (Wiki)
- I often feel as though I'm engaged in the "flight" response during periods of POIS
- Beta blockers block the action of endogenous catecholamines (epinephrine (adrenaline) and norepinephrine (noradrenaline) in particular), on β-adrenergic receptors, part of the sympathetic nervous system which mediates the fight or flight response.(Wiki)
- Imre1 recovered after using Emconcor (bisoprolol), a fairly selective Beta-1 blocker
- There are three known types of beta receptor, designated β1, β2 and β3. β1-Adrenergic receptors are located mainly in the heart and in the kidneys. β2-Adrenergic receptors are located mainly in the lungs, gastrointestinal tract, liver, uterus, vascular smooth muscle, and skeletal muscle. β3-receptors are located in fat cells. (Wiki).
- I have an anaphylactic allergic reaction to peanuts; as a result, I've had to be directly injected with adrenaline many times in my life.  While this certainly has an effect on me, it has not caused POIS symptoms.

Some possible conclusions:
- Following orgasm, unusual levels of dopamine, noradrenaline, adrenaline, or some other corticosteroid or catecholamines, may be causing some of our symptoms.
- Based on Imre1's solution, Beta-1 receptors may be more relevant to this problem than Beta-2 or Beta-3 receptors.
- Adrenaline may not be as relevant as other catecholamines to this problem (based on my reaction to adrenaline injection).

Routes:
- Interesting to see the results of non-selective beta blockers (like nadolol), and selective beta blockers, on our symptoms.
- Wellbutrin, a dopamine and noradrenaline re-uptake inhibitor, is likely also worth testing, though it could have an opposite effect to betablockers. 

(Note: I tried Wellbutrin for a couple days, and then stopped.  It did not have a markedly bad or good effect on the symptoms, though I would likely have to try it for many weeks to really know.  I did feel more focused, and got more work done than usual with the Wellbutrin.  It felt somewhat like having taken Ritalin.  Anxiety increased somewhat.  I would recommend talking about this med with your physician.  I have also tried nadolol and bisoprolol, though I used the nadolol inconsistently.  I am still testing bisoprolol, but I can say I have not felt any adverse effects on symptoms, and believe I am feeling some improvement.  I cannot be sure yet, however.).

This information is not authoritative.  I encourage others to do their own research.  I plan on discussing this with a physician, and doing some thorough research, when I have time.

References (I encourage others to read, they are very informative and not long):
1: http://www.reuniting.info/science/articles/acute_dopamine_depletion_causes_psychological_distress
2: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrenal_glands
3: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta_blocker

[John21 (OP)]

I am currently reading about overactive thyroid disorders, hyperthyroidism. I have explored this before and found a dead end when the blood tests were negative, yet I am again curious due to symptoms that fit my profile: insomnia, double vision, etc. The fact that the amount of sugar consumption has a direct relationship to how early I wake at night makes me suspicious of a metabolism problem, which is apparently what the thyroid hormones control. Another symptom is frequent bowel movements. Due to my healthy diet I am regular every morning (unless I am trying new diets), but it often consists of more than one movement, three is not unusual. There is always the tendency to see our own symptoms in unrelated diseases, but I feel I have to explore this some more.

If I do have a thyroid problem it may be secondary to POIS, resulting from the havoc that POIS wrought. Or perhaps POIS is actually an unusual manifestation of a thyroid problem... hyperthyroidism symptoms are quite varied and include attention span problems and fatigue.

Has anyone else here been tested for thyroid problems?

Compare your symptoms: http://thyroid.about.com/cs/testsforthyroid/a/selftest.htm

[girlwind]

I think this is...perhaps a problem with the adrenal glands.

Counterpoints, this is exactly what a longtime Oriental medicine practitioner concluded about my POIS years ago. Specifically, she said my adrenal glands were "too small" - presumably to withstand the shock of orgasm?

According to my understanding of Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM), the emphasis there is not so much on
the physical pathology, but more on the function of the organs and movement of chi (energy) through them.
Also, the diagnostic labels of what define "an organ" are much broader in definition than those of Western
medicine. So it surprises me that a TCM practitioner would actually conclude that your adrenals are too small....?
Which isn't to say that they're not, it's just that it seems a rather a presumptuous diagnosis. Maybe... considering
that TCM divides chi into two categories--one being the chi (energy) gathered from food and air and water, and
the other being the source energy, or what they call the "congenital chi," what she meant was that your congenital
chi is weak or deficient. Just a thought...

Usually, in my visits with acupuncturists and TCM practitioners, I've been diagnosed as having a "kidney
deficiency" (among other things), and being both kidney yang and kidney yin deficienct. The kidney yang
correlates most closely in Western terms to adrenal functioning, and more generally to the functioning of
the energy metabolism and the endocrine system. The yang of the kidney--adrenals is considered the
"root energy" of the body, like the pilot light for our entire energy system. The kidney yin refers to all
the fluid aspects of the body--like blood, lymph, reproductive juices, hormonal secretions, etc. Tonifying
the yang deficiency, without upsetting the yin, is rather tricky and requires someone very skilled with herbs.

There are tonic herbs that are prescribed for something like this, and some of these have been very helpful
for me. However, one of the best practitioners I've met emphasized the importance of personal habits as
being a key element in repairing any kind of deficiency condition. As she put it, "you can gobble down tonic
herbs until the cows come home, but if you keep on burning LIKE THAT, you'll never catch up on the energy
you've lost." The main "habit" that I've had to address (sometimes less successfully than I'd like to) is NEVER
“RUNNING ON EMPTY,” when it comes to rest and food. This means: ALWAYS eating a nourishing breakfast
before beginning any activity, ALWAYS eating regular meals with some protein at each meal, AVOIDING
overdoing to the point of exhaustion, (very hard with CFS), getting to bed as EARLY as possible, ideally by 10
pm., and sleeping at least eight hours, and developing really good TOOLS for coping with stress, so as to
avoid those cortisol spikes that cause so much burn-out.

I know it's a lot easier to take a pill, which is my inclination with all the supplements I eat each day, but I
think the really holistic approach that includes the above has to be included for real healing to happen and
to last. That has been my intention.

[girlwind]

Has anyone else here been tested for thyroid problems?

Compare your symptoms: http://thyroid.about.com/cs/testsforthyroid/a/selftest.htm

Funny you should mention it, but I am currently awaiting my complete hormone profile test results
from ZRT Labs., including a thyroid panel. Will keep you posted on the results.

In the mean time, I have discovered that I have a very significant iodine deficiency, which I think
has been undiagnosed a problem for some time now. I began reading about the thyroid a few weeks
ago and came across a very helpful article/interview with Dr. Joseph Mercola.
http://www.thyroid-info.com/articles/mercola.htm

According to Mercola, there is a simple test for iodine deficiency.

"A simple way to determine if one requires (iodine) is to paint a patch of tincture of iodine on your
skin the size of a half dollar. The iodine brown coloration should last at least 24 hours. The faster it
is absorbed the greater the body's iodine deficiency."

My iodine patch was gone in 3 hours, so I did another one just to verify, and sure enough this one
had disappeared in 3 hours as well. After this I researched and purchased the supplement below.
http://www.modifilan-seaweed-extract.com/AboutModifilan.aspx?rd=1&categoryid=1&keyword=organic%20seaweed
I've been taking it for only one week and already I have noticed a change in my energy level and in
the almost total relief of a uncomfortable squeezy feeling in my throat. Also, my last orgasm produced
very little in the way of mental fog POIS symptoms, and only the physical fatigue, which lasted only one
day. There could be other factors influencing the minimal POIS as well (my CFS is better right now), but
the addition of the thyroid boosting iodine is something I will be paying close attention to.

[demografx]

- I often feel as though I'm engaged in the "flight" response during periods of POIS

Counterpoints, in your excellent scientific exploration above, this sentence stands out. I am clearly in "flight" mode in POIS. And POIS definitely clobbers my "fight" mechanism!

[demografx]

So it surprises me that a TCM practitioner would actually conclude that your adrenals are too small....?
Which isn't to say that they're not, it's just that it seems a rather a presumptuous diagnosis.

girlwind, I can't vouch for my TCM practitioner's credibility except to say that she had (now deceased) a successful practice. This may sound silly, but I thought she knew my adrenals were small from touching them (she gave a _brutal_ massage, which felt good afterwards. Maybe because she finally stopped the torture? []

[demografx]

According to my understanding of Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM), the emphasis there is not so much on
the physical pathology, but more on the function of the organs and movement of chi (energy) through them.

I wasted many years (on and off) chasing the Taoist Mantak Chia's 5,000 year old idea that releasing sperm = losing chi = POIS. His books seemed to me to describe POIS, and that "losing" sperm is the culprit and should be avoided at all costs. So I finally learned his technique of achieving orgasm without ejaculation. But my POIS still raged on its destructive path as badly as it ever did!

[girlwind]

I wasted many years (on and off) chasing the Taoist Mantak Chia's 5,000 year old idea that releasing sperm = losing chi = POIS. His books seemed to me to describe POIS, and that "losing" sperm is the culprit and should be avoided at all costs. So I finally learned his technique of achieving orgasm without ejaculation. But my POIS still raged on its destructive path as badly as it ever did!

I didn't find Mantak Chia's work to be particularly helpful either, but I did get some relief from taking Chinese
tonic herbs for "the deficiency" they addressed. I still take some of them to this day. And acupuncture, to a
lesser degree, has been helpful for certain symptoms of the CFS.

[John21 (OP)]

Counterpoints,

Is there anything else you are trying?

(Sorry I missed this)
Garlic has been the only addition to my diet. I eat a low fat diet with minimal hydrogenated fat (I hate how manufacturers are allowed to say there is zero trans fat when there is not zero trans fat!) and plenty of veggies. I am now making a point to include "goitrogenic" foods and kale, to test the thyroid angle... we'll see if I get some sleep.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goitrogen

Hey I just read this on Wikipedia:

An association between thyroid disease and myasthenia gravis has been recognized. The thyroid disease, in this condition, is autoimmune in nature and approximately 5% of patients with myasthenia gravis also have hyperthyroidism. Myasthenia gravis rarely improves after thyroid treatment and the relationship between the two entities is not well understood

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperthyroidism

Although the tests did not come back positive, the diagnosis for my diplopia was "suspected myasthenia gravis".

"Autoimmune in nature", meaning some foreign invader is being attacked by the immune system, causing the havoc... something garlic might kill...

This is very interesting: 

Many alternative medicine practitioners believe that symptoms of hyperthyroidism or hypothyroidism may appear before test results are positive.[citation needed][verification needed] One doctor[unreliable source?] is quoted as stating, "Blood test results do not show the inactivity or over-activity of a thyroid until it is 60% or more dysfunctional."

[hurray]

At last!!!

Thank you all for this great thread, I have just spent the last 4 hours reading every post. I have plenty I'd like to add to this thread, but I don't want to write some huge rambling post

Some people have theorized that POIS is caused by the loss of fluids in ejaculation, but others have been quick to point out that male non-ejaculatory orgasms and female orgasms have also reliably caused POIS to occur.
But surely in these cases, fluids were still produced - women become wet (via the Bartholin's glands) and men produce pre-ejaculate (from the Cowper's glands).
From my own (male) experience, I can confirm that on several occasions pre-ejaculate alone has led to the onset of POIS.

Is it possible that the body is draining vital resources from the brain and other places to replenish the genitals? Perhaps when reproduction is on the cards, the brain says "to hell with being able to think clearly, work and socialise, we need to have those fluids ready NOW!"

Just making a quick addition, keep up the great work, I hope to post here some more

[demografx]

hurray, welcome to The POIS Forum! I like your theory of depletion/replenishment, it makes a lot of sense. Wouldn't it be great if we had unlimited funding to explore everything? Meanwhile, let's get cured! (And it does feel like we're getting there).

Don't forget to visit girlwind's POIS video at

[demografx]

girlwind video

girlwind, I wonder if I made a mistake suggesting to add the word "sexual" to the tags? It seems that YouTube's "Related (to your POIS) Videos" show nearly-X-rated vids.

Whatever you think to do/not do is fine with me, I just wanted to bring that to your attention.

[hurray]

Thanks, glad to be here! I'm going to try a few of the ideas detailed on this forum on myself, and I will be more than happy to post the results!

Good video, sums up PIOS really well.

[martin88]

Hi to all !
I'm also interested in chinese medicine, i often read a lot about it on the web, simply because they believe in POIS while our occidental doctors laugh at us. However i have absolutely no experience with TCM except a few consultations(acupuncture).
Since some weeks now i wanted to post about this but i always put it for tomorrow (my energy and mood are extremely low these days because of pois and forced excessive work.)  Girlwind and Demografx you give me the opportunity to do it :

Please take the time to read these links (it's long but i hope good) :

- I like the fact that they seems to know exactly the causes (unfortunately in their own terms),and that they have a treatment with herbs :
http://www.acupuncture.com/conditions/noctemission.htm

- They say in the next link :  the essence (seminal fluid) or jing should be conserved, also it's written something about garlic which is influencing kidney yang (kidney is linked with adrenal but i can't see what is kidney yin or kidney yang).

I think the following is important for us: they say garlic (acrid spice) is good to nourrish and warm (?) the kidney qi and kidney yang BUT excess  acrid spices , prolonged use weakens kidney yang and kidney yin which we certainly want to avoid.
Page 217 here :
http://books.google.com/books?id=SWEwiMhSO-gC&pg=PA217&lpg=PA217&dq=garlic+kidney+yang&source=web&ots=1NHcgg1iea&sig=njGE_xIkp2zt5Ih-F3d5x3IqHkM&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#PPA217,M1


About garlic i don't think it's good to take something you can't swallow easily because it's too strong. But i have no doubt, if you have a relatively good nervous system, then it's easier to support. It's all how you feel with. When i was totally sexually abstinent i was eating raw garlic every day with good results  (it's written in books of dietetic to eat garlic, onions and parsley every day) . But now i can't take a raw clove/day, there is a good effect at the begining and then something bad for me (increased annoying mental symptoms, and desire to sleep if taken during the day). Perhaps it's effective only if you're chaste.

- Very interesting links about cures for pois :
http://www.tcmassistant.com/symptoms/dizziness-after-ejaculation.html

Spermatorrhea is a seminal loss (without erotic dreams or toughts and without orgasm) which cause weakness. They give a treatment for this and an other one for erotic dreams. However I hope it's efficient for seminal loss considered normal and physiological :
http://www.tcmassistant.com/symptoms/sexual-disorders.html

Maybe a treatment for those who have diarrhea and/or seminal loss, Lotus seeds :
http://tcm.health-info.org/Herbology.Materia.Medica/lianzi-properties.htm
(google is full of pages about this herb)

Now with all the bad i've heard about toxicity with chinese remedies i don't know where i can safely buy these herbs. There is a web site  full of practitionners in the following link. It looks good for me. Maybe one of them can help us to explain pois in our own words and give assistance on where we can buy herbs.

practitionners:
http://www.chineseherbacademy.org/herbalists/index.shtml

Interesting articles :
http://www.chineseherbacademy.org/articles/index.shtml


I Hope this will help.

Keep Fighting  !!!
trials, research, letters, form, new ideas, ...

[girlwind]

girlwind video

girlwind, I wonder if I made a mistake suggesting to add the word "sexual" to the tags? It seems that YouTube's "Related (to your POIS) Videos" show nearly-X-rated vids.

Whatever you think to do/not do is fine with me, I just wanted to bring that to your attention.

Demografx: I removed the word "sexual" from the tags.  So far the video has gotten about 500 hits.
But no comments after the first week. We'll see what happens next.

[pyropeach]

Just want to put this out there: in Waldinger's research paper (which I was able to access through my school) there is a sentence suggesting oxytocin may inhibit cognition.  

I quote from his paper: "However, oxytocine has been suggested to negatively interfere with cognition (Geenen et al., 1988)."

Has anyone else investigated the references of his paper? They may lead to other related research that could reveal valuable pieces to this puzzle.  Also, does anyone know how to determine if other papers have cited Waldinger's paper?  Web of Knowledge does this, but I don't have access...

[John21 (OP)]

Concerning supplements, I think I will add some Vit D after watching professor Michael Holick's video in the thread "Does sunscreen block vitamin D production?" Very interesting stuff!