[romies]

The levodopa from m.pruiens can cross the blood brain barrier, but apparently most of it converts to dopamine before it reaches the brain and dopamine isn't good to have in your body in higher than normal amounts since it increases heart rate(I've experienced this) and I think has some other bad effects. I did seem to get a barely noticeable cognitive boost, but now I think it's probably not worth it due to the increased heart rate. The thing that took me by surprise is that the increased heart rate took a week or so after supplementation to show up. Quite a delayed effect.

So I'm guessing it would be safer to supplement tyrosine + NADH or L-phenylalanine. Patients with parkinson's are given a decarboxylase inhibitor known as carbidopa with levodopa to prevent it from being converted to dopamine before entering the brain, but it is only available by prescription and probably has some nasty side effects. I read somewhere that green tea and coffee contain small amounts of a weak decarboxylase inhibitor which is why some say it is better to take m.pruriens with green tea, but I'm having trouble verifying that now. This topic is somewhat discussed at the following link: http://www.longecity.org/forum/topic/23668-boosting-dopamine-tyrosine-dlpa-or-mucuna-pruriens/ [nofollow]

I agree with everything you said here, about the side effect of L-DOPA, and on NADH+tyrosine. I think NADH boost BH4 levels, which promote the process of phenylalanine->Tyrosine->L-DOPA in the brain. I do think tyrosine is superior to phenylalanine, because it will only consume 1 BH4 molecule to get L_DOPA, while  1 phenylalanine molecule will consume 2 BH4. And in the US and Europe, we probably already have too much phenylalanine in our diet, due to the wide use of aspartame, as in Diet-coke.

[urano75]

So my two big questions currently are:

1- Why is my immune system so easily weakened to give way to viral infections almost every week, either from dormant viruses or new ones?
2- Why does sex seem to be a constant trigger for this condition?

I had similar experiences when I was younger and did not know methyl-guard, vitamin-D etc.

My hypothesis for your question 1 is that immune systems are weakened by too much histamine and too much mast cell activity, triggered by an orgasm. And that can be addressed with methylfolate,methylB-12 if you are an undermethylator.

I've already added 1g of methylfolate, 1g of methylcobalamine and 750mg of TMG to my huge daily list. Not seen a difference so far. Not even with the 30g of L-Tyrosine. I'll have to work on it.

[urano75]

Traditional Chinese medicine is an empirical medicine, meaning its underlying theory is often very flawed and unreliable, and unverifiable, even though some of the treatment it provides may alleviate some symptoms sometimes. The theory behind Jing and the vital energy in kidneys is a quintessential example of such flawed theory, in my view.

I think I stumbled upon sites like this before. Apart from the specific page on neurotransmitters, if you surf the rest of the site you'll see that essentially it considers regular orgasm and ejaculation an unhealthy habit.
I've also read books about Taoist Sex (I regularly practice tai chi chuan) which support this position: semen should be preserved as much as possible, and semen retention techniques might help with it. They mention that loss of vital fluids weakens the brain (cognitive) and the joints (knees, spine) among other things. Traditional Chinese Medicine considers sexual-related issues coming from the depletion ofjing, a vital force stored in kidneys (see correspondence to adrenals in our medicine).

Maybe. I've used acupuncture for the last 2 years. Not sure how much it's been effective, with all the things I'm doing.

[urano75]

The levodopa from m.pruiens can cross the blood brain barrier, but apparently most of it converts to dopamine before it reaches the brain and dopamine isn't good to have in your body in higher than normal amounts since it increases heart rate(I've experienced this) and I think has some other bad effects. I did seem to get a barely noticeable cognitive boost, but now I think it's probably not worth it due to the increased heart rate. The thing that took me by surprise is that the increased heart rate took a week or so after supplementation to show up. Quite a delayed effect.

So I'm guessing it would be safer to supplement tyrosine + NADH or L-phenylalanine. Patients with parkinson's are given a decarboxylase inhibitor known as carbidopa with levodopa to prevent it from being converted to dopamine before entering the brain, but it is only available by prescription and probably has some nasty side effects. I read somewhere that green tea and coffee contain small amounts of a weak decarboxylase inhibitor which is why some say it is better to take m.pruriens with green tea, but I'm having trouble verifying that now. This topic is somewhat discussed at the following link: http://www.longecity.org/forum/topic/23668-boosting-dopamine-tyrosine-dlpa-or-mucuna-pruriens/

I agree with everything you said here, about the side effect of L-DOPA, and on NADH+tyrosine. I think NADH boost BH4 levels, which promote the process of phenylalanine->Tyrosine->L-DOPA in the brain. I do think tyrosine is superior to phenylalanine, because it will only consume 1 BH4 molecule to get L_DOPA, while  1 phenylalanine molecule will consume 2 BH4. And in the US and Europe, we probably already have too much phenylalanine in our diet, due to the wide use of aspartame, as in Diet-coke.

The more conversions required, the more likely bottlenecks exist, the less likely enough dopamine will be produced.
DL-Phenylalanine will contribute to endorphins production too and in principle might help with pain (it didn't make a difference for me).
Aspartame... well, I'd never include it in a healthy diet. Nor any sweetened carbonated drinks, the worst kind of acidifiers and nutrients depletors.

[B_Daniel]

The dopamine depletion theory seems like an obvious (read good) avenue to explore.  One of the main problems with it though is that it's not so easy to test.  I took a neurotransmitter test but the results were just bizarre.  i was low in about half the categories, but dopamine i was fine in.  My take-away was that the test confirms I have a neurotransmitter problem, but I don't think there are any other conclusions to reliably draw from it.

I took Wellbutrin (buproprion) for a while, which works to increase dopamine.  What I found is that it helped me a lot in the first 2 days I'd take it, then the positive effects would wear off.  My psychiatrist speculated that my dopamine wasn't being effectively cleared i.e. I had enough dopamine, it was just old and unusable.  Who knows if she's right, and it wouldn't even matter.  Not like we could do anything about that. 

Ultimately, what I've concluded is that dopamine plays a huge role in us feeling like sh 1t all the time.  If you just look at dopamine deficiency symptoms, you'll see that it rings true.  But a lack of dopamine isn't the root of our problem.   Something else is causing it.  Whether that thing is under-methylation, a copper toxicity, or whatever, as long as "it" is still in tact to reduce our dopamine, it seems unlikely that any approach that focuses directly on dopamine is going to be the answer we're looking for.  Instead, I propose we spend more time examining this list:

Factors which reduce dopamine levels:
1. Chronic stress
2. Inadequate sleep
3. Hypothyroidism
4. Lead, arsenic and cadmium exposure
5. Under-methylation
6. Tyrosine (precursor) deficiency
7. Magnesium, iron, zinc & vitamins B3/B6/C/D deficiency
8. Excess copper levels
9. Genetic dopamine receptor abnormalities
10.Chronic opioid, alcohol & marijuana use
11.Adrenal insufficiency
12.Glutathione deficiency
13.Influenza
14.Estrogen deficiency
15.Human growth hormone deficiency

[B_Daniel]

Is anyone going to try Nathan's concoction?  I'm currently working on a copper toxicity plan so don't have the capacity, so to speak. 

Let's be honest, a lot of us are hoping that somebody else is going to try it out so we don't have to.  Well, let's identify who these people are and thank them for it so in a month's time we're not in exactly the same position as we're in now.  Let's work together on this one.  Any volunteers? 

(As always: I'm obv not certified to clear these supplements as safe, so do some research or visit with your dr or whatever) 

[thereishope]

In my opinion we should definitely make our way in to med schools. Our disorder is a big mystery and has way too many theories; if we get the attention of research facilities in med schools maybe we can get some answers. Dr. Waldinger's research was great but he didn't take it to the next level; he left his research kind of inconclusive.
 
I live in Montreal, Canada and I live near the on of the top 10 med schools in the world (McGill). This school has resources, facilities and is abundant in personnel. I feel like the answer is so close to me but for some reason I cannot get through to them. I have tried sending a few e-mails to professors and researchers and have gotten no responses. If myself and a few other pois sufferers start sending them e-mails who knows maybe we can gain some attention for them perhaps we can initiate a research, get clues, or anything at this point is better than nothing.

 

[LAPOISSE2]

Hi everybody,

Thanks you all for your numerous answer about dopamine ; I really don't know if it's the root cause ; What I think is we need to start from what happen when O and study biochemical reaction following O. One of the answer is dopamine/prolactin/oxytocin ; There is some theory(traditional/religious) about excess masturbation conducting to "yoyo" patterns of these hormones ; The rebound effect is normal, but maybe for some of us the yoyo is to used and have trouble to goes up.

As you mentionned, B daniel, it could be also relevant to look at what cause dopamine depletion...but i'm sure it will lead to what cause this causes ; )...adrenal fatigue for instance is something we talked about a lot and personnaly i'm not supported by medical community or even by any relevant blood work.

I'm 100% with what thereishope said ; There is a research going one but it is for the end of the year and the budget is limited ; I guess we could take advantage with structuring research by our own.We could split in groups, study sub therory, make experiments, blood test and structure results.

My inch is it's very tricky to take 20 suplements in the same time ; As long as there is not a relevant theory, we have no idea at what help, what make things work, what need weeks to work, if something else than suplement help. Of course the best idea is to have all this conducted by a med school ; For that I guess we need to regroup by geographic area but maybe there is also sub type of POIS(maybe the physical flue likes symtoms type and the cognitives disorder types.

Anyways, we probably miss something in having everybody's subjective point of view related in one giant post overs years ; I guess something could appear if we organise ourselves and make something more methodological/statistic ; it's even a good start to speak with med school.

[kurtosis]

The levodopa from m.pruiens can cross the blood brain barrier, but apparently most of it converts to dopamine before it reaches the brain and dopamine isn't good to have in your body in higher than normal amounts since it increases heart rate(I've experienced this) and I think has some other bad effects. I did seem to get a barely noticeable cognitive boost, but now I think it's probably not worth it due to the increased heart rate. The thing that took me by surprise is that the increased heart rate took a week or so after supplementation to show up. Quite a delayed effect.

So I'm guessing it would be safer to supplement tyrosine + NADH or L-phenylalanine. Patients with parkinson's are given a decarboxylase inhibitor known as carbidopa with levodopa to prevent it from being converted to dopamine before entering the brain, but it is only available by prescription and probably has some nasty side effects. I read somewhere that green tea and coffee contain small amounts of a weak decarboxylase inhibitor which is why some say it is better to take m.pruriens with green tea, but I'm having trouble verifying that now. This topic is somewhat discussed at the following link: http://www.longecity.org/forum/topic/23668-boosting-dopamine-tyrosine-dlpa-or-mucuna-pruriens/

I agree with everything you said here, about the side effect of L-DOPA, and on NADH+tyrosine. I think NADH boost BH4 levels, which promote the process of phenylalanine->Tyrosine->L-DOPA in the brain. I do think tyrosine is superior to phenylalanine, because it will only consume 1 BH4 molecule to get L_DOPA, while  1 phenylalanine molecule will consume 2 BH4. And in the US and Europe, we probably already have too much phenylalanine in our diet, due to the wide use of aspartame, as in Diet-coke.

You're correct on all those points Romies. The BH4, role of NADH and the increasing amount of aspartame in our diets which requires more BH4 to process (to avoid subclinical PKU symptoms).

[kurtosis]

Interesting. It seems creatine helps lower brain glutamate levels.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15672208
A friend of mine started using a whey protein with less creatine and increased glutamine and he said it made him feel jittery and gave him a dull headache.

Increased glutamate levels have been found in several neurological disorders including huntington's, autism and multiple sclerosis.  http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/content/128/5/1016.full.pdf

[urano75]

So my two big questions currently are:

1- Why is my immune system so easily weakened to give way to viral infections almost every week, either from dormant viruses or new ones?
2- Why does sex seem to be a constant trigger for this condition?

I had similar experiences when I was younger and did not know methyl-guard, vitamin-D etc.

My hypothesis for your question 1 is that immune systems are weakened by too much histamine and too much mast cell activity, triggered by an orgasm. And that can be addressed with methylfolate,methylB-12 if you are an undermethylator.

Can you/anyone briefly explain what is the hypothetic mechanism for which histamine release and mast cell activation after an O can lead to a temporary immune system weakening, thus opening the gate to viral infections? I would expect an aggravation of allergic symptoms, but I can't see an obvious connection to a temporary weakness of immune defenses.

Also, I understand that improving methylation would help eliminate excess histamine, but would it help with mast cells stabilization too? I use quercetin during seasonal allergy peaks, and I can't say it helps very much with allergy symptoms, certainly not with POIS.

[thereishope]

LAPOISSE2,

Thank you for your acknowledgment; I'm talking from the simple fact that if we somehow find away to all work together we can move mountains! It's only normal that doctors don't take us seriously, they only see one of us at a time and that pois sufferer they see might be the only one they see in their lifetime. This is why in some of my previous posts I was looking for another pois sufferer in my area so that we can maybe work together in person. Regarding the research, I didn't know there was one for the end of the year; who is it conducted from?

[Vincent M]

Maybe. I've used acupuncture for the last 2 years. Not sure how much it's been effective, with all the things I'm doing.

Acupuncture might be an unnecessary risk. Seems overall the evidence is inconclusive. Also I heard about this in the news:

"A court in Switzerland has found a self-styled acupuncturist guilty of intentionally infecting 16 people with HIV, the virus that causes AIDS."
http://www.centredaily.com/2013/03/22/3549501/swiss-acupuncturist-convicted.html

This is a rare example, but still something to consider.

[thereishope]

Hey guys, I'm trying to get someone's attention at McGill university; I have sent them a couple of e-mails in the past and never get replies. At this point all I want is to simply get an answer, even one that says ''sorry were not interested in helping you'' would be sufficient enough for me/us not to waste time and look somewhere else.
The following is the e-mail I usually copy and paste when I tried to contact McGill, I want to send one to someone else I found but before I send it to her I was hoping you guys can proof read it and maybe make it more effective!


E-mail:
To Marianna,

The purpose of my message is regarding McGill research. I would like to know if there is any interest in conducting research for a rare disorder names post-orgasmic-illness-syndrome (POIS). Symptoms of this abnormal disorder are falling sick and ill for one week after orgasm. I am one of the sufferers of this illness and as a result I've had a lot of closed doors from doctors in the past due to the fact that they find nothing wrong with my test results and also because they are unsure as to what might be causing my symtoms. So far I have done different blood tests, urine, as well as endocrine tests have been done and everything seems to be normal.

I believe research facilities such as this one probably gets emails like this all the time, however through forums and some medical websites out there have shown that there's an adequate amount of male sufferers out there that are equally looking for answers just as much as I am and perhaps the slightest support/help would be much appreciated. Thank you in advance for your consideration and your time, looking forward to your reply.

Sincerely yours,



If you think there something that can be improved feel free to help I'm open to suggestions, after all this e-mail is on behalf of all of us.

Thank you

[Gbolduev]

I see interesting discussion going on here. You might  pay attention to manganese,  since   manganese  raises dopamine levels, and copper is manganese antаgonist.  Also I bet  many of you  have anemia like  shortness of breath after the orgasm.    Anything that  lifts sodium level will help with POIS I think,    it can be vitamin C , Vitamin E,   manganese,  B vitamins , copper.

Manganese can make you high as a kite though.)))) Dopamine  mineral to me. 
So since  you guys were talking about  dopamine,  I  had to add my  2 cents

[urano75]

Maybe. I've used acupuncture for the last 2 years. Not sure how much it's been effective, with all the things I'm doing.

Acupuncture might be an unnecessary risk. Seems overall the evidence is inconclusive. Also I heard about this in the news:

"A court in Switzerland has found a self-styled acupuncturist guilty of intentionally infecting 16 people with HIV, the virus that causes AIDS."
http://www.centredaily.com/2013/03/22/3549501/swiss-acupuncturist-convicted.html

This is a rare example, but still something to consider.

One might question acupuncture's effectiveness, meridians' existence and be skeptical on CTM, homeopathy, energetic medicine and alternative approaches in general.
This is based on personal experience and view of the world.
But I think that associating an entire discipline to the behavior of isolated criminals is not really fair.

[Prancer]

The dopamine depletion theory seems like an obvious (read good) avenue to explore.

That was a very good & informative post B_Daniel. I completely agree that our symptoms closely match dopamine depletion.

How well (no pun) did the bupropion help you? Did you feel as good as you did when you tried the testosterone? (because I remember you were super excited, even though your good results were only short-lived sadly)

You're right about needing to spend more time figuring out root cause. (Totally 100% agree though! It feels so right.)

[B_Daniel]

How well (no pun) did the bupropion help you? Did you feel as good as you did when you tried the testosterone? (because I remember you were super excited, even though your good results were only short-lived sadly)

I dont remember ever feeling 100% on either of them.  But when you're used to feeling 20%, feeling 70% is awesome and gives you a ton of hope.

[Prancer]

when you're used to feeling 20%, feeling 70% is awesome and gives you a ton of hope.

Definitely!

[urano75]

Hi, There is hope;

It's funny, I was just writing about dopamine in the other forum ; bellow is my though of the day thats are linked to yours

This research is amazing : http://www.reuniting.info/science/articles/acute_dopamine_depletion_causes_psychological_distress

Did not find a better match with POIS ; fatigue, anxiety, social disorder and cognitive impairment that come and goes back within days ;

Orgasm = Dopamine VS prolactin ; What if prolactin wins by KO because raise for 1 hour only(non detectable) to the sky ? How long would dopamine need to go back to it's initial level ?

My prolactin like others is high, we had several hyperprolactinemia here(even adenoma)

Junk food cause low dopamine, stress cause low dopamine(see the vicious circle here), SSRI are also involved in dopamine reuptake inhibition, work for while and make symtoms worse(my story), coffe also.

Dopamine and testosterone are friends ; both high are both low

Is anybody tried to boost dopamine : soft way is mucuna pruriens / less soft ways are levodopa are dopamine agonist like bromocriptine(Coreeman tried that apparently but kinda disappeared from the forum then) ?

The theory is not new in here : https://sites.google.com/site/poiswebsite/test-page/orgasm-induced-catecholamine-imbalance-via-pituitary-dysfunction

The levodopa from m.pruiens can cross the blood brain barrier, but apparently most of it converts to dopamine before it reaches the brain and dopamine isn't good to have in your body in higher than normal amounts since it increases heart rate(I've experienced this) and I think has some other bad effects. I did seem to get a barely noticeable cognitive boost, but now I think it's probably not worth it due to the increased heart rate. The thing that took me by surprise is that the increased heart rate took a week or so after supplementation to show up. Quite a delayed effect.

So I'm guessing it would be safer to supplement tyrosine + NADH or L-phenylalanine. Patients with parkinson's are given a decarboxylase inhibitor known as carbidopa with levodopa to prevent it from being converted to dopamine before entering the brain, but it is only available by prescription and probably has some nasty side effects. I read somewhere that green tea and coffee contain small amounts of a weak decarboxylase inhibitor which is why some say it is better to take m.pruriens with green tea, but I'm having trouble verifying that now. This topic is somewhat discussed at the following link: http://www.longecity.org/forum/topic/23668-boosting-dopamine-tyrosine-dlpa-or-mucuna-pruriens/

My doctor suggested to supplement N-Acetyl-Tyrosine in large doses plus small quantities of mucuna (L-DOPA), spread out 3 times per day. He thinks they're best absorbed taken together this way.