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In general, it could be the case that POIS is a compensation mechanism to an over-production. If other agents (e.g. fenugreek, relora) could keep the post-orgasm peak-level within normal bounds, they could also prevent the reaction-compensation from occurring.
Guthrie--Thanks for your efforts to explain and graph your theory. In my case, I think that the The Diagram 2 graph fits a description of what might be happening for me with a single orgasm. But the Diagram 3 graph with the "double" orgasm does not describe my experience. After the first orgasm I have absolutely no willingness or energy for another.Perhaps this reveals the difference between those of us who tend to be more cortisol high and those who are cortisol deficient.
@demoI get a bit scared when I read on the re-uniting site that high levels of cortisol can be toxic to brain cells. Made me think of Demo....and then made me think of my own brain.
It was through nocturnal emissions I realized that I was having physical loss (semen) with absolutely no physical contact (manual, oral, penile/vaginal sexuality). This concretized, for me, the connection between the brain and semen. While some people experience a greater sense of connectedness, warmth, emotional safety and physical closeness upon orgasm, I am, if I am honest with myself, not one of them. This is why the Hindu-esque or Taoist-esque expositions around semen retention always, sort of, appealed to me, but even that explanation was insufficient. While I don't experience 'flu-like symptoms' there is an 'allergic' quality, upon orgasm, extremely similar, identical actually, to what the alcoholics describe in their literature as 'hangovers'. The 'allergy' I feel on the one extreme, compared to the magic I feel from 'semen retention' make this a slam dunk, for me.
Quote from: rock27 on 07/01/2009 18:21:10@demoI get a bit scared when I read on the re-uniting site that high levels of cortisol can be toxic to brain cells. Made me think of Demo....and then made me think of my own brain. High cortisol levels can damage brain cells in the hypothalamus and hippocampus. I don't think it would cause an empty sellum... Besides, we don't know whether Demo has high cortisol.
Steve, FWIW, as I mentioned on earlier posts, I chased the Taoist theories and methods for years to no avail. Girlwind has too (I shouldn't speak for her, but I do recall a couple posts she made to that effect).
But with all the recent chastity talk reminding me that it's the only current, "surefire" cure, I think I'll try to hold out a little longer.
but refraining from orgasm is something I'm learning to excel at.
I don't think going to great lengths to avoid orgasm is the best option for all of us. I was corresponding to the MD PhD researcher I've mentioned, who is studying POIS, and has personally had at least 4-6 POIS sufferers as patients. He said he asked one patient to try having one orgasm/day for two weeks. At the end of the two weeks, he reported being 80% better. Just to counter balance some of the recent posts.
Guys and gal,I also talked, at a group level of about 20 folks about POIS, having worked on it for 18 years, come this May, and committing, after a 20 month experiment, to surrendering orgasmic sexuality. I was shocked at the joylessness in the room, but I'm getting more used to that response the last 10 days. I can't find anyone who wants to celebrate my victory over my being slaughtered for 18 years, day after day, year after year by POIS...So, I'm going to celebrate myself. What I did tonight was to play Hendrix songs for 2 hours. I love his music and it was a great physical joy to be able to do something creative instead of being hung over with POIS. Tomorrow, I'm going to celebrate by buying myself some new shoes. I can teach myself to have the courage to celebrate.
Quote from: Counterpoints on 07/01/2009 23:28:22I don't think going to great lengths to avoid orgasm is the best option for all of us. I was corresponding to the MD PhD researcher I've mentioned, who is studying POIS, and has personally had at least 4-6 POIS sufferers as patients. He said he asked one patient to try having one orgasm/day for two weeks. At the end of the two weeks, he reported being 80% better. Just to counter balance some of the recent posts. Counterpoints, I don't think anyone knows what's best for all of us and my sense is that what works for one of us may not work for others. Some folks seem to find Relora working, some Fenugreek, some multiple orgasms and some no orgasms. My doctor initially suggested daily ejaculation. That was very bad advice , for me, and he later recanted.
There are definitely proving to be multiple stop gap "remedies" for our multiple orgasm issues. Multiple puns intended.  I think it's great that we have so many variations on the theme---so many bright people who are willing to risk talking about POIS and experimenting on themselves with whatever they feel will work best for them. Leaving the door open for personal investigation and continued experimentation is going to serve everybody's interest in the long run.
This is a random post amist good discussion. But I want to know if anyone here is from Colorado like I. It would be beneficial and more convincing for two suffers to work with the same doctor. Many Docs are hesitant to take time studying one case of an unknown disease. My doc actually suggested this!Any CO folks here?
Quote from: demografx on 07/01/2009 20:37:42Steve, FWIW, as I mentioned on earlier posts, I chased the Taoist theories and methods for years to no avail. Girlwind has too (I shouldn't speak for her, but I do recall a couple posts she made to that effect).I agree with the Taoist idea of refraining from orgasm, though I was never very successful at the Mantak Chia technique of "aborted orgasm." Just to clarify the difference. Or maybe I just did the Mantak Chia method wrong... Either way the aborted orgasm technique didn't work for me, but refraining from orgasm is something I'm learning to excel at. Except of course, when my dreams interfere with that agenda.
Quote from: girlwind on 07/01/2009 21:27:55but refraining from orgasm is something I'm learning to excel at.
Exercise and playing music have always helped me. When I had a particularly bad period back in 97/98, I wrote quite a bit of music (using guitar), and it helped me relax immensely. I even had a sound studio for awhile, and making music can be quite therapeutic. Abstinence has always been my most effective strategy for succor.
I think the "joylessness" of others' reactions might be some version of fear. Health issues with a baffling tinge to them (like POIS and CFS) sometimes freak people out, in ways that they aren't even aware of. I'm happy to hear that you are celebrating in spite of that. Hallelujah to creativity! Music and painting have been my saving grace as well. And new shoes can be a good thing too. 
I am amazed at how many of us are musically inclined. On a previous post it was noticed that many of us played instruments. Demo was one, I forget the rest...now SteveD as well. What do you think, strange coincidence?
OK. Nothing left to do then start a band.P.rofessional O.rchestrated I.nstrument S.ymphonyStarring:
It seems that FenuGreek and Maca which I take 3x/day along with Garden of life Restore(FYI Ultra also works ) has the greatest effect on the CFS/Fibromyalgia symptoms. Yohimbe and Horney goat weed seem to be more of a secondary help in the formula. Works good taken with fruit juice(berries Pomegranite etc) I also take about 50mg. od DHEA. When I took it alone there wasn't a great effect. I haven't had an orgasm in 2 months. The physical desire goes down as long as there isn't too much stress to deal with. Kind of keeping my mind on other things as much as possible. Having good results and progress keeps positive mental energy.
I think Henri [Honoré] de Balzac might have been right, perhaps.
I've been noticing strangeness in my life as I transition to post-looking-for-a-solution-to-POIS. I'm feeling quite susceptible and vulnerable to some pleasant, but self destructive, dark urges I have. I think that's because my guard is down. I found POIS so difficult to solve that it kept other less destructive things at bay while I was working on it. I wasn't expecting that, but it makes sense to me.Also, not having to debate in my head whether to have an orgasm or not on a moment-per-moment-during- the-event basis frees me to notice some more subtle things. When I am being non-orgasmically sexual I get jolts of neurochemicals that are hypnotic and intoxicating, almost opiate quality alterations. These are extremely physically pleasurable. That's the good news. The bad news is that there is a residual, damping, if not debilitating effect. Certainly the extreme mental clarity and dexterousness are virtually annihilated....and I ain't near as funny!
Quote from: SteveD on 07/01/2009 21:47:00I think Henri [Honoré] de Balzac might have been right, perhaps."The mother's heart is the child's schoolroom," "A lover always thinks of his mistress first and himself second; with a husband it runs the other way," "The more one judges, the less one loves." (Just giving you a hard time, Steve )
I think we kidded about starting a band at one point, and Demo even created a set list.
...prepping to teach Voodoo Chile (Slight Return) tomorrow and hunting for a gig in a difficult district here in town. It's little stuff, but it's meaningful to me.
Steve, forgive me for being presumptuous, but you sound just like I did when I thought I had POIS solved. A CRASHING disappointment arrived in the form of unwanted release. I honestly wish you the best. I would just hate to see the same thing happen!
Quote from: SteveD on 10/01/2009 07:42:56...prepping to teach Voodoo Chile (Slight Return) tomorrow and hunting for a gig in a difficult district here in town. It's little stuff, but it's meaningful to me.Hardly sounds like "little stuff"!
Another POIS band tune "Let's don't do it in the road" , or less rudely "Why can't we be friends?"
I think we orgasm-program our bodies from past behavior, much like our body clock that expects daylight at a certain time period and gets thrown for a loop when we travel = jet lag.
In the interest of promoting balance on the subject of abstinence:"Modern research on abstinenceSince 1957, no ill effects have been shown to be associated with frequent sexual activity, and indeed many studies have demonstrated that it facilitates substantial health benefits. One study suggests that frequent ejaculation may lead to a lower risk of prostate cancer. There have been numerous studies indicating that excessive repression of the sexual instinct leads to an increase in the overall level of aggression in a given society. For example, psychologist J.M. Prescott, in a cross-cultural investigation published in The Bulletin of Atomic Scientists (1975), found that societies forbidding premarital sex are plagued by acts of rage, and tend to have higher rates of crime and violence. Prescott also found a link between sexual repression and aggression, insensitivity, criminal behaviour, and a greater likelihood of killing and torturing enemies.In 1997, Forbes Magazine reported on "one of the most credible studies correlating overall health with sexual frequency". Queens University in Belfast tracked the mortality of about 1,000 middle-aged men over the course of a decade. The study, published in 1997 in the British Medical Journal found that "men who reported the highest frequency of orgasm enjoyed a death rate half that of the laggards"; that is to say, those that engaged in sex more frequently enjoyed longer lives. The report also cited other studies to show that having sex even a few times a week may be associated with: improved sense of smell; reduced risk of heart disease; weight loss and overall fitness; reduced depression (in women); the relief or lessening of pain; less frequent colds and flu; better bladder control; better teeth; and improved prostate function. The report cited a study published by the British Journal of Urology International which indicated that men in their 20s can reduce by a third their chance of getting prostate cancer by ejaculating more than five times a week."Above from wikipedia
Enough of this chastity talk.
...it would seem, to me, that we could train our bodies, to the degree that it is sanely possible to 'cycle down' and live reasonably happy, contented, satisfied lives without orgasm.
Quote from: SteveD on 10/01/2009 08:50:44Enough of this chastity talk.So far, Steve, this is the only thing that you have said that I strongly disagree with. Abstinence/chastity is a crucial subject for POIS. It is even a key point in Dr. Waldinger's paper.
Quote from: SteveD on 10/01/2009 08:45:18...it would seem, to me, that we could train our bodies, to the degree that it is sanely possible to 'cycle down' and live reasonably happy, contented, satisfied lives without orgasm.I moderately disagree. 
When you get to 1000 posts will you get to be Jesus Member? ...Just funnin' ya