[girlwind]

In general, it could be the case that POIS is a compensation mechanism to an over-production.  If other agents (e.g. fenugreek, relora) could keep the post-orgasm peak-level within normal bounds, they could also prevent the reaction-compensation from occurring.

Guthrie--Thanks for your efforts to explain and graph your theory. In my case, I think that the The Diagram 2 graph
fits a description of what might be happening for me with a single orgasm. But the Diagram 3 graph with the "double"
orgasm does not describe my experience. After the first orgasm I have absolutely no willingness or energy for another.
Perhaps this reveals the difference between those of us who tend to be more cortisol high and those who are cortisol
deficient.

[underwater]

Girlwind & Steve--
I came of age in the 60's-- And did I--
"If you can't be with the one you love, love the one your with"
It absolutely shaped a lot of my psyche--
I don't think I ever "recovered"--I've had a great, long, loving marriage, but
sexuality (orgasm) never really linked up with "emotional connectedness"-- For me,
"emotional connectedness" arises out of a "spiritual bond" and "family". I also believe that orgasm is such a powerful, hard wired, primordial instinct geared for survival of our species that it is not surprising at all that it causes chemical imbalances in some with an accompanying variety/intensity of symptoms. Our cultural veneer sits atop 50,000 years -plus- of anthropology!

[underwater]

Girlwind, I totally agree with you about Cortisol. After reading hundreds of posts here in our forum, it seems that there are POIS sufferers who may be reacting to orgasm with high Cortisol levels and some with low levels. AND/OR some who may not be able to counterbalance their Cortisol levels with the necessary neurotransmitters to return to baseline/homeostasis. The second is where my thinking is since my POIS is nearly identical to my GAD, delineated only by the recovery time frame. When I recover from my present GAD episode (hopefully soon)and find myself "normal", I definitely plan to experiment with amino acid supplements and other herbal medications. By the way, I just added a mega B complex to my diet three days ago, and I feel a lot better. I hope this is for real!

[Guthrie]

Guthrie--Thanks for your efforts to explain and graph your theory. In my case, I think that the The Diagram 2 graph
fits a description of what might be happening for me with a single orgasm. But the Diagram 3 graph with the "double"
orgasm does not describe my experience. After the first orgasm I have absolutely no willingness or energy for another.
Perhaps this reveals the difference between those of us who tend to be more cortisol high and those who are cortisol
deficient.

Girlwind--while in the midst of POIS, I too lack willingness and energy for another orgasm.  That may be why my experience of last week was the first time that something like that had happened to me.  I guess the question is: if, trying to ignore or overcome the lack of energy, you did have a second orgasm, is there a possibility that the physiological response could mirror diagram 3?  

Perhaps that wouldn't happen (as your distinction between cortisol-high and cortisol-low indicates), but I think it is important to distinguish between subjective desire (or lack thereof) for initiating orgasm and the involuntary biochemical response once orgasm does occur.

[rock27]

@ underwater:
I feel tension in my muscles as well. Also, normally I am a person who likes doing things and enjoying almost everything. In POIS I don't feel like doing anything, not enjoyin anything, I am just surviving (I have a strong mind), knowing that if I hang in for some days, it will be gone. IF you call that depression, I am in your league. Apart from the thirst I also pee a lot (in second phase of POIS), it's not diabetes I tested. Thanks for the neurotrans, might add them for testing.

My case started just after one year of orgasms. In that period I think I overdid it (many times a day because it was addictive).


@ Guthry
Thanks for them beautiful graphs!! It's a bit different indeed, I am glad I got you on a track!! It's a variation on a theme. I'll make some graphs of my theory too when I am able to, cos it makes things very clear.

I also think that fenugreek / relora /herbs could act as agents or security locks, just to make sure the culprit is not going up too much. After all, you don't get the shortage symptoms when taking these stuff. That's why it's most effective to take them before orgasm, so levels don't go up. It's probably much harder to get your levels down when you take these 'agents' after orgasm. It's like the saying: It's easier to prevent than to cure!

And thanks for pointing to the re-uniting site. When I look at the symptoms of excess dopamine, this might also be candidate for testing. However, I tested for prolactine 2 years ago maybe 8 hours after orgasm, and then I had very normal values, and it says in the text that dopamine and prolactine act counteractive. Maybe I should test much sooner after orgasm.

It also says here that cortisol and oxytocin are counteractive...


@demo
I get a bit scared when I read on the re-uniting site that high levels of cortisol can be toxic to brain cells. Made me think of Demo....and then made me think of my own brain.

[Counterpoints]

All: I was talking to a very smart physician friend recently, about POIS.  He suggested taking a urine metanephrine test.  Sometimes "benign" tumors can cause cortisol, blood pressure, and other measures to be quite erratic.  Such tumors can also be responsible for the heats, etc., experienced by B_Jim and others.  A urine metanephrine test would help screen for this problem.  

Theory: Our neuroendocrine response to orgasm is being affected by such tumors.  I think this is quite possible for some of us. I seem to have extremely erratic cortisol levels, and my blood pressure is also erratic.  It's usually about 120/70, but sometimes when I've been tested, it's been 165/110.  The next day it's back to normal.  My blood sugar levels are also somewhat unusual, which could be explained by this theory.


Guthrie:

Interesting idea.  I think the third graph describes my situation most closely, although things are a little more complicated.  It may be interesting to compare the time-scales for "recovery" after subsequent orgasm, also.

In the last few weeks, here is what has been happening with me:
Feeling fine.  Within minutes of one orgasm, POIS symptoms will set in, about 90% of the time.  These are strictly mental symptoms: extreme agitation, a feeling that something isn't right, "brain fog" (light headednesses, disorientation, cognitively sluggish, ..), difficulty expressing thoughts into words, social anxiety, distress, inability to maintain attention, inability to relax (even if I take a tranquilizer, etc.), a feeling of heart irregularity (palpatations, thundering pulse, sometimes irregular beat).  These symptoms are especially obvious whenever I am confronted with a situation where I have to think quickly -- social interactions, tests, etc.  

So it takes about 2 minutes, maximum, to go from "normal" to whatever chemical state causes POIS symptoms.  Now, if I have a subsequent orgasm, there are three possibilities.  

1) My symptoms will get worse.  Basically the same symptoms, but with greater intensity.  (50% of the time)
2) My symptoms get slightly better.  Intensity of symptoms decreases, but POIS still quite unbearable. (20% of the time)
3) Symptoms completely alleviated. (30% of the time).

Each of these results is known to me, within 30 seconds to 5 minutes after orgasm.

Now, it sometimes takes me up to 7 orgasms to achieve result 3.  When this is the case, the "relief" usually only lasts for up to a day, after which my symptoms return, in full force.  Usually I can alleviate myself of them by waiting a day, and having one more orgasm.


If it takes me only 1-2 attempts to achieve result 3, the relief traditionally lasts until the next orgasm (days, weeks, month... however long it takes).  However, in the last few months, I have been getting a new set of milder symptoms, following this relief.  I am completely better for the day of the alleviating orgasm, but the next day, in the morning, I start to feel this level of "background" stress.  No brain fog, necessarily, but anxiety.  An inability to relax.  Sometimes mild pressure in prostate.  It usually gets most intense about 2 hours after waking up, and then slowly decreases intensity, until I am feeling good in the late evening.  This then repeats, for about 3 days, after which I am feeling consistently fine.  Since beta blockers have mildly helped with this second set of symptoms, and cortisol levels tend to decrease significantly in the evening, I suspect this is partly a cortisol problem.

A lot of information here! One final note.  If I have a POIS orgasm in the morning, I find that a subsequent orgasm is more likely to alleviate my symptoms if I wait for 10 hrs+, than if I have one immediately after.

[Counterpoints]

@demo
I get a bit scared when I read on the re-uniting site that high levels of cortisol can be toxic to brain cells. Made me think of Demo....and then made me think of my own brain.

High cortisol levels can damage brain cells in the hypothalamus and hippocampus.   I don't think it would cause an empty sellum... 
Besides, we don't know whether Demo has high cortisol.

[demografx]

It was through nocturnal emissions I realized that I was having physical loss (semen) with absolutely no physical contact (manual, oral, penile/vaginal sexuality). This concretized, for me, the connection between the brain and semen. While some people experience a greater sense of connectedness, warmth, emotional safety and physical closeness upon orgasm, I am, if I am honest with myself, not one of them. This is why the Hindu-esque or Taoist-esque expositions around semen retention always, sort of, appealed to me, but even that explanation was insufficient. While I don't experience 'flu-like symptoms' there is an 'allergic' quality, upon orgasm, extremely similar, identical actually, to what the alcoholics describe in their literature as 'hangovers'. The 'allergy' I feel on the one extreme, compared to the magic I feel from 'semen retention' make this a slam dunk, for me.

Steve, FWIW, as I mentioned on earlier posts, I chased the Taoist theories and methods for years to no avail. Girlwind has too (I shouldn't speak for her, but I do recall a couple posts she made to that effect).

One of my POIS symptoms is that my fingertips dry up, they get numb, sometimes they feel like they're on fire, and I actually get dermatitis there. And for unknown reason(s), my POIS-affected fingertips drive me crazy. Probably because they're a barometer of my overall POIS state, i.e., the worse/better the fingertips, the worse/better the POIS.

Last few days, (this happens all the time, like clockwork) I notice similar fingertips-symptoms again...but for the opposite reason! That is, it's now 5 weeks since release, so it's the body reminding me that I "need" one. But with all the recent chastity talk reminding me that it's the only current, "surefire" cure, I think I'll try to hold out a little longer.

btw, you were asking about partners, I'm married for over 30 years. POIS is discussed, but rarely. I think it's best that way, because she leans to "isn't it psychological?". For a long time, because of my early religious teachings about sex ("it's dirty") I believed that POIS is psychological/psychosomatic, but no longer do, even though it may have started that way.

[demografx]

@demo
I get a bit scared when I read on the re-uniting site that high levels of cortisol can be toxic to brain cells. Made me think of Demo....and then made me think of my own brain.

High cortisol levels can damage brain cells in the hypothalamus and hippocampus.   I don't think it would cause an empty sellum... 
Besides, we don't know whether Demo has high cortisol.

CP, thanks for clarifying that, I was a bit confused myself about that post.

[girlwind]

Steve, FWIW, as I mentioned on earlier posts, I chased the Taoist theories and methods for years to no avail. Girlwind has too
(I shouldn't speak for her, but I do recall a couple posts she made to that effect).

I agree with the Taoist idea of refraining from orgasm, though I was never very successful at the Mantak Chia technique
of "aborted orgasm." Just to clarify the difference. Or maybe I just did the Mantak Chia method wrong... Either way the aborted
orgasm technique didn't work for me, but refraining from orgasm is something I'm learning to excel at.  Except of course, when my
dreams interfere with that agenda.

[CertainlyPOIS]

I got sunrider product alpha 20c what a reap of but i need to find out whether it works or not. the ingredients according to box are;
nandina flower(chinese white flower), paris polyphylia(paris herb)root, scutellaria baicalensis (scutellaria herb)root; dandelion root; imperata root

[SteveD]

But with all the recent chastity talk reminding me that it's the only current, "surefire" cure, I think I'll try to hold out a little longer.

I wish there were another 'surefire' cure, but I don't see one at the moment and I want to be well the next couple of days as I have an important show to do with some difficult music that I want to be 'available ' for. I think Henri de Balzac might have been right, perhaps.

[SteveD]

but refraining from orgasm is something I'm learning to excel at. 

Me, too...my partner and I committed to that in therapy, last week, as a way of life, one day at a time, and that's a major victory for me. The surrendering of looking for a cure, accepting my limits and being grateful for what I do have. I'm really happy with that...

[Counterpoints]

I don't think going to great lengths to avoid orgasm is the best option for all of us.  I was corresponding to the MD PhD researcher I've mentioned, who is studying POIS, and has personally had at least 4-6 POIS sufferers as patients.  He said he asked one patient to try having one orgasm/day for two weeks.  At the end of the two weeks, he reported being 80% better. 

Just to counter balance some of the recent posts.

[Limejuice]

This is a random post amist good discussion.  But I want to know if anyone here is from Colorado like I.  It would be beneficial and more convincing for two suffers to work with the same doctor.  Many Docs are hesitant to take time studying one case of an unknown disease.  My doc actually suggested this!

Any CO folks here?

[SteveD]

I don't think going to great lengths to avoid orgasm is the best option for all of us.  I was corresponding to the MD PhD researcher I've mentioned, who is studying POIS, and has personally had at least 4-6 POIS sufferers as patients.  He said he asked one patient to try having one orgasm/day for two weeks.  At the end of the two weeks, he reported being 80% better. 

Just to counter balance some of the recent posts.

Counterpoints,
 
I don't think anyone knows what's best for all of us and my sense is that what works for one of us may not work for others. Some folks seem to find Relora working, some Fenugreek, some multiple orgasms and some no orgasms. My doctor initially  suggested daily ejaculation. That was very bad advice , for me, and he later recanted.   

[SteveD]

Guys and gal,

I need to report on the POIS front...absolutely no symptoms. Following an idea I got from this blogsite, I worked out 1 1/2 hours today and it really helped. I also talked, at a group level of about 20 folks about POIS, having worked on it for 18 years, come this May, and committing, after a 20 month experiment, to surrendering orgasmic sexuality. I was shocked at the  joylessness in the room, but I'm getting more used to that response the last 10 days. I can't find anyone who wants to celebrate my victory over my being slaughtered for 18 years, day after day, year after year by POIS...So, I'm going to celebrate myself. What I did tonight was to play Hendrix songs for 2 hours. I love his music and it was a great physical joy to be able to do something creative instead of being hung over with POIS. Tomorrow, I'm going to celebrate by buying myself some new shoes.
I can teach myself to have the courage to celebrate.

[girlwind]

Guys and gal,

I also talked, at a group level of about 20 folks about POIS, having worked on it for 18 years, come this May, and committing, after a 20 month experiment, to surrendering orgasmic sexuality. I was shocked at the  joylessness in the room, but I'm getting more used to that response the last 10 days. I can't find anyone who wants to celebrate my victory over my being slaughtered for 18 years, day after day, year after year by POIS...So, I'm going to celebrate myself. What I did tonight was to play Hendrix songs for 2 hours. I love his music and it was a great physical joy to be able to do something creative instead of being hung over with POIS. Tomorrow, I'm going to celebrate by buying myself some new shoes.  I can teach myself to have the courage to celebrate.

I think the "joylessness" of others' reactions might be some version of fear. Health issues with a baffling tinge to them (like POIS
and CFS) sometimes freak people out, in ways that they aren't even aware of. I'm happy to hear that you are celebrating in spite
of that. Hallelujah to creativity! Music and painting have been my saving grace as well. And new shoes can be a good thing too.  []

[underwater]

Exercise and playing music have always helped me. When I had a particularly bad period back in 97/98, I wrote quite a bit of music (using guitar), and it helped me relax immensely. I even had a sound studio for awhile, and making music can be quite therapeutic. "Music Therapy" is a very interesting subject; offered as majors in many colleges.
Abstinence has always been my most effective strategy for succor. But I also think that solutions to POIS will continue to slowly emerge, little by little, until some major breakthroughs are realized---soon--very soon--

[girlwind]

I don't think going to great lengths to avoid orgasm is the best option for all of us.  I was corresponding to the MD PhD researcher
I've mentioned, who is studying POIS, and has personally had at least 4-6 POIS sufferers as patients.  He said he asked one patient
to try having one orgasm/day for two weeks.  At the end of the two weeks, he reported being 80% better. 

Just to counter balance some of the recent posts.

Counterpoints,
 
I don't think anyone knows what's best for all of us and my sense is that what works for one of us may not work for others. Some folks seem to find Relora working, some Fenugreek, some multiple orgasms and some no orgasms. My doctor initially  suggested daily ejaculation. That was very bad advice , for me, and he later recanted.   

There are definitely proving to be multiple stop gap "remedies" for our multiple orgasm issues. Multiple puns intended.  [] []
I think it's great that we have so many variations on the theme---so many bright people who are willing to risk talking about POIS
and experimenting on themselves with whatever they feel will work best for them. Leaving the door open for personal investigation
and continued experimentation is going to serve everybody's interest in the long run.