[demografx]

LEVITRA Continued

I took Levitra _after_ release this morning, and I feel my usual 75% cure of POIS symptoms. And just knowing I have a place to report this (here!) helps a lot.

[pdawg]

thank you all for the welcome!
after looking at the symptoms, I realized mine is not that bad at all..
I really feel for John..
it's so weird, this condition..right?
embarrassing too..but good thing we have each other
let's help each other and come up with solutions
since my symptoms are getting worse (wasn't annoying enough for me to really look for solutions until now), I will try to look for solutions and try different stuff too.
if I succeed, or fail, I will let you guys know..
One more thing, if you have similar symptoms like mine (mainly diarrhea 30-60 minutes after sex) please let me know..I wanna know who has this particular condition so we can help each other out..I know I saw it somewhere a couple of times.
be healthy

[solution]

My conclusions
Diarrhea or strong desire to empty bowel
It happens only if the bowel has been filled
Very likely caused by an imbalance of bacteria in the bowel suddenly
An imbalance that could be because some part of the bowel bacteria is attacked by any substance segregated in the gut during an orgasm

[nopoison]

Hey Neil, sorry for any misunderstanding. I`ve already added a link back to this thread - The only thing I`d like to do is to create a place where people can provide info on POIS and look for it easier than on this forum. my only intention is to help myself and people who suffer from POIS!

I think, that this thread is so vivid that it could be quite valuable to create some kind of archive that would collect most important data.

If I can do anything to integrate more seamlessly with this place - just let me know.

Cheers,
James  [O8)]

[demografx]

It is such a relief! Once again, my Levitra worked....even taking it after the release. 25+++ year-struggle. Giant, giant effect on my whole life.

But even with only 25% of the POIS intensity, it is still agonizing.

It seems like such a cruel malady, to always have the dark cloud of release - which is natural and universal in man - hanging over our heads.

The posting and reading here, though, has really helped a great deal.

[imre1]

Some other symptoms that I experience (5-10% of the time) are weird noise in my ears, headache and dizziness.

Well, I have been having it very bad lately. And the idea that it is all caused by problems in the stomach area is beginning to make a lot of sense now.

[hk1979]

I suggest the people with diarhea start taking Prebiotics, Probiotics supplements as soon as they can. It is to cause healthy intestine. Also the Rye Bread is great! thanks solution I tried it, been taking one each day now.

demografx: no I am not a scientist I am a telecommunications engineer, but in the last year and a half I decided I will not rest until I find a cure, because things were getting worse, not better, and I had to make plans.

BTW you say you take Levitra only afterwards? So you are taking it not for the erection but only for POIS. But do you still get a healthy erection?

[hk1979]

demografx: you can also sound like a scientist if you read through this site: http://www.nutros.com/ [nofollow] :-)  best site i've seen on the net regarding health.

[cdma77]

Hi,

I suffer some a lot of the same problems.  I am 41 yrs old and I have had this in some form for 19 yrs. I get:

Night sweats
Fatigue
Confusion
Insommonia
Nausea, lack of appititte
No drive to do anything
Irritable
Depression
Flu like symtoms

I take Androgel because of my low testosterone level, but it doesn't help this problem.  I also suffred form a bout of Prostitis.  My doctor said it may due to my lack of ejaculations.  His solution was for me to ejaculate more !:(

I see some people using Levitra, but why ?  I don't suffer from ED, but I tempted to lie just to get a sample if it helps.

I also suffer from nocturnal emissions once a weak which makes this problem worse.

I am tempted to try DHEA and get some Levitra.

Jeff

[demografx]

LEVITRA

Jeff, I'd like to repeat the warning that Levitra can _posibly_ cause heart problems for those who don't have ED! (unverified source but worth checking out and working closely with your doctor...not only for this but ANY "recommendation" on this Forum - we don't all have the same chemical reactions!). Levitra affects blood flow.

Jeff, don't lie to your doctor! It's not worth the risk! Look at http://www.levitra.com [Links inactive - To make links active and clickable, login or click here to register] and do some Google work with "risks".

hk1979, NO, I began taking Levitra strictly for ED (the POIS "cure" was an accidental discovery - which I might not have noticed were it not for being involved in this Forum...I might have simply thought I found a "reprieve" for unknown reasons) _before sex_, but this last time I forgot, so yes the erection was weak but i released anyway (boy, does this feel personal! []) - and then took Levitra afterwards in the hope that it would work on POIS anyway. It did. One other time previously the same thing occurred and it worked by taking it afterwards again. Not as well as taking it beforehand but still very powerful. Don't ask me why!

By the way, my psychiatrist then suggested Cialis (he gave me a sample), a similar drug but longer lasting so he thought it might help POIS even more...but it was a DISASTER! (It didn't work at all, so the disapointment was very intense).

hk1979, congratulations on your persistence and determination! This POIS-garbage is an evil anomaly. It's hurt a big chunk of my life for 25+++ years that's for sure. And, I'm sure, the lives of many others.

[cdma77]

Demografx,

I was wondering what meds you take in addition to Levitra?  I am taking Effexor for depression, however it doesn't do much plus that fact in raised my bp now I have to take bp medication.  You said something like Addderal and Symbalta.  I am wondering if I should try something else if it is really like serotonin re uptake that needs to be blocked.  Any ideas?  I have talked to my doctor about the POIS since I am sure they would say that this problem is nonsense.

[demografx]

I'm on Cymbalta and Adderall, for depression and adhd respectively, but the Adderall has done wonders for my depression. From what I understand, everyone is different and it might take several tries before the right formula is found for you. Be as patient as possible, I know it's hard. I'm impatient myself.

[Bizzy]

Hi Demografx

How did you find the Cialis for erections. Can you explain in more detail how it was a disaster for POIS ?

[demografx]

Bizzy,


It just didn't work. At all. The "disaster" was my expectation that it would work BETTER than Levitra and the resulting disappointment on top of the usual POIS agony.

[hk1979]

demografx thanks for explaining :-) we need to get to the bottom of the fact that Levitra works. I do not have ED, but it doesn't go as large as it used to be :-) but it is not a good enough reason for the doctor to give me Levitra. So we need to find out what Levitra has that helps with this problem after sex.

B_Jim and solution > altough this is a link more related to muscle building, it is a really good read about what all the things are that can help resuce cortisol:

http://www.leehayward.com/cortisol.htm [nofollow]

I still strongly believe that POIS is related to cortisol, and by following a diet where cortisol is eliminated, I am sure the effects of POIS will be dampened.

If anyone knows if there is a relationship with cortisol to Levitra, please let me know.

Thanks

[pyropeach]

Hello all,

I don't wish to be rude and bud in unexpectedly, but I was referred to this forum because it seems I have a particular version of POIS.  After so many years of hell with this problem, I'm willing to do almost anything to find a solution.

I'm 21, light (124lbs), and extremely fit. The problem is after ejaculation by means of a wet dream or masturbation results in a lack of concentration (brain fog), poor memory, confusion, and fatigue. Basically, for 5 to 6 days it becomes extremely difficult to concentrate on anything, I simply cannot sustain a train of thought to think things through. I become extremely absent minded to the point where I forget I'm holding something in my hand causing me to drop it. Its extremely difficult to read, hold conversations, follow lectures, take tests, remember things, and learn things. I feel extremely tired and jittery, both physically and mentally. I also become depressed during this time. Its like being totally burned out in the head; much like how people after an epileptic attack are. Also, I get strong headaches after masturbation. Allow me to repeat, these symptoms last 5 to 6 days! So its having a huge affect on my life. I've gone to a neurologist, but he doesn't seem to know whats wrong. He prescribed an ssri, but only because I mentioned I get depression after an orgasm.  I've gone through extensive blood tests for neurotransmitter levels, hormone levels, and so forth, but all results showed up normal, with the exception of prolactin being slightly high.  Overall, it doesn't seem like the doctors around me are willing help.  All five doctors I've seen are totally baffled.

So far L-phenylalanine and L-tyrosine supplements help a little bit with recovering quicker, as well as using sleeping pills to get as much energy as I can out of sleeping.

These supplements are, as I've come to discover, the precursors of dophamine, which may be being inhibited for an extended period of time by a small growth on my pituitary that secretes an excess of prolactin.  My guess is artificially increasing dophamin will inhibit the excess prolactin and restore some of my concentration.

[John21 (OP)]

Pyropeach, welcome. Your condition sounds similar to mine and many others here. I tried l-tyrosine recently and I did not have any POIS symptoms at all, but I did feel mentally off in a non-POIS way, perhaps 500mg was too much I don't know. I hope you can get off sleeping pills soon, as they are not good to take, as your body will get dependent on them. I have chronic insomnia and I am glad that I was able to stop sleeping pills, which I was on for years. I was also on Paxil, same story as you my doc thought my problems were based on a depression. I am glad I am off those meds as well.

Relora has been suggested in this forum based on the theory of a PIOS/cortisol connection. I tried Relora last week, I had two 250mg pills on Saturday and one on Sunday and man did I feel drugged... it had a profound effect on me, way too powerful. I'm not sure if it can be beneficial to me yet, it I ever try it again I will use big time caution (small amounts). I am still waiting for my sleep to re-regulate after trying the Relora, it messed it up pretty good.

Excessive prolactin, interesting theory. I once considered that low levels might be of influence... I will have to learn more about this hormone.

 

[pdawg]

Guys, I have good news..
as hk1979 (thanks again) said,
people with diarrhea symptom after ejaculation need to take probiotics ASAP!
there are many and consult your pharmacist for better answer but there is one on amazon

newbielink:http://www.amazon.com/Primadophilus-Bifidus-Adult-90-Caps/dp/B00068G5OG/ref=pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=hpc&qid=1207776873&sr=8-1 [nonactive]

might not be the best one out there so go to your local pharmacy

no more diarrhea after orgasm!
the cause was weak intestines and i guess not enough bacteria in my gut flora
i still get a mild irritation in my bowels, farts and stuff, but still
also got a light headache once in like 6 times, so that's good
go to the pharmacy, gogogo
ask for bifidobacterium ( newbielink:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bifidus [nonactive])

[nopoison]

hello, while searching for more info on POIS I came across many sites that treat about 'sexual exhaustion' - which I believe is something very similar (if not itself) to POIS.

check out this forum and share your opinion, most symptoms seems very familiar: http://recover.forumup.org/ [nofollow]

you are always welcome to check http://nopoison.ning.com [nofollow] for more info,

stay tuned - work in progress

[Netherlands2008]

I am from the Netherlands, so my english is not perfect! I have also POIS. I also visited Dr Waldinger in Leyenburg in Den Haag Netherlands. He told me i had POIS. We made an appointment that he would send me to an other Doctor to do a test. You had to give sperm and then you could see the results. Afer this visit i never hearded about this anymore. I tried to call him, but he was always away (seminars netherlands/other countries). He did not have a secretary in hospital Leyenburg, but i spoke some other secretary. They said he did not have a secretary so she would drop a note in his box. You understand i never heard anything! So i did call again....same story and again she would drop a note. Again i did not hear anything.
But anyhow i know now what i have....POIS. I did have it from my 17 till now mid 40! Because i did have it so early i did get used to it and i managed to have normal sex live (boys do not ejaculate always...only when it is so special that.... for me it is working!) Nevertheless i have periods ..month's that i am extreme sensible to POIS, but many other month's, because of my new way of seeing to have sex and ejaculations, i can have normal sex live.
About Dr Waldinger i still think he is a serious guy ! but i think he is also teacher at an University and neuropsychiater, always searching for new sexual deseases to explore..... He is always on his way ..travelling/seminars etc etc. I do not think he has solutions! and we who have POIS are here not many on earth, so we are not commercial interesting!
best regards from Holland.

[Bizzy]

Heres an interesting idea I came up with whilst day-dreaming. I believe that most men experience a downturn in mood after orgasm ( remember the man who turns over and goes to sleep ). This post orgasmic depression is natures way of keeping the man around the woman he has just impregnated. This downturn is usually not severe and recovery soon occurs. With POIS the men do not recover because of a fault within the hypothalamus. There can be a number of reasons for this fault from genetics to childhood trauma. The recovery system does not function and the man remains depressed.
It is important to elucidate what hormone or neuro-peptide is resposible for this recovery system.
Too much cortisol or CRF might be responsible for the failure.

[demografx]

demografx thanks for explaining :-) we need to get to the bottom of the fact that Levitra works. I do not have ED, but it doesn't go as large as it used to be :-) but it is not a good enough reason for the doctor to give me Levitra. So we need to find out what Levitra has that helps with this problem after sex.

...If anyone knows if there is a relationship with cortisol to Levitra, please let me know.

Thanks

hk1979, I absolutely agree: we need to get to the bottom of this. Along those lines, I have been wondering now for a long time:

WOULD IT BE BENEFICIAL FOR THIS POIS FORUM TO HIRE A UROLOGIST OR CHEMIST OR OTHER PROFESSIONAL/SCIENTIST TO HELP US SORT THIS OUT? (not just Levitra, but cortisol, dopamine, relora, serotonin, DHEA, i.e., all the credible ideas presented here)

I don't think any of us here have the credentials needed to take this seriously to the next step, that is, to come up with solid recommendations to combat POIS that can be implemented by the POIS-sufferer and his doctor based on the patient's individual needs!

And it wouldn't cost us much if the consulting fees were spread out over all the willing members here. We could even agree on a budget _beforehand_ (e.g., let's have this consultant review all the POIS FORUM posts and see what we get for US$100,$200, or $300 etc.)

EVERYONE: PLEASE TELL ME WHAT YOU THINK OF THIS IDEA!

[demografx]

B_Jim, Thank you! I'm all for any way to take this to the next step.

I have a feeling that somewhere within all the POIS Forum posts here - and with a trained, medical/scientific eye - lies an answer to relieve much suffering!

B_Jim, can you write to ISSM? Or tell me what should go in the letter and I'll write/send it?

[demografx]

TO EVERYONE:

If you are interested in our finding an outside consultant to study all our POIS posts and formulate concrete medical testing recommendations that you can share with your doctor, please indicate your interest by: I suggest a date of APRIL 20 (for your yes or no) - so far, it's me and B_Jim.

We need more than 2 people to hire/pay for POIS medical/consulting services. BUT YOUR "YES" WILL NOT COMMIT YOU TO ANY SPECIFIC AMOUNT OF MONEY. Just an indication of willingness to participate. We can then decide amongst us how much we are willing to invest.

Thank you very much for your consideration of this effort.

[Guthrie]

Yes, I would be interested in the outside consultant idea.  Of course, I guess one tricky part could be figuring out what area of expertise the consultant should have...

[hk1979]

If it has to do with hormones and glands, I suppose an endocrinologist  would be the right type of consultant to get. Diabetes is the main type of disorder they usually deal with, but I firmly believe POIS is almost the same reaction to sex as diabetes is to sugar. Both also are closely related to cortisol hormone. Please read this link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endocrinologist [nofollow]

BTW I am also in, but remember I am in South Africa, our currency is very weak against the US Dollar (8/1), so my contribution will not be so high.

But I suppose our Endocrinologists will also be the cheapest to hire? I'll find out what they charge for research....

[Guthrie]

Yes, I agree that endicrinology seems like the closest field to POIS-issues.  However, I went to see an endocrinologist recently, who said that given his training, he had no ideas and no suggestions for me.  That was discouraging, but I suppose that other endocrinologists could have more insight.

[demografx]

Can anyone recommend a top endocrinologist?

[John21 (OP)]

Jim, I would not say my experience with Relora was bad, only that it affected me a lot. My insomnia is very sensitive to substances, even a wee bit of alcohol will throw me off. If anything my experience is positive in that it demonstrates that it actually has a real effect, perhaps not beneficial for POIS, that's undetermined as of yet.

Demografx I do not think it is profitable to invest hiring a consultant. Many years of strange looks from doctors and test after test unable to find a problem or at least demonstrate it...I have given up spending time or money on it, other than perhaps the occasional supplement. I do much better to just avoid it. I think any consultant would be very expensive and I am very doubtful of any success. Any researcher would need data to analyze. Perhaps someone with an in depth knowledge of human physiology could listen to our experiences and give some suggestions, but I am doubtful that it would be worthwile.

[pyropeach]

My experience with doctors have been the same-even my endocrinologist who just looked at me funny.  Suffice it to say, they've given up because they simply can't find anything wrong no matter how many tests they run.

Though I'd like to mention a method that has greatly helped reduce the symptoms in intensity and duration; I get better in a matter of a single day as opposed to an entire week.  The way it works is a little weird and people tend to ignore it whenever I try to discuss it.  Basically it is prolonged masturbation without ejaculation.  I came across it in my own research about POIS - apparently its an ancient Chinese tradition of Taoism where they believed prolonged masturbation without ejaculation enhances wellbeing and health.  To my surprise, it does have a noticeable affect on me...its not perfect, but its better than nothing.

There's also some scientific evidence that seems to support this found here if anyone is interested:
http://joe.endocrinology-journals.org/cgi/reprint/177/1/57 [Links inactive - To make links active and clickable, login or click here to register]

It seems just before orgasm, levels of epinephrine and norepinephrine reach a peak.  I think its possible that if ejaculation is avoided, no orgasm occurs and these chemicals are not allowed to drop from their peaks.  Likewise, levels of dopamine would also stay at its peak that would inhibit any excess prolactin present (which in my case is unusually high, which is said to inhibit dopamine).  I think its possible that its the replenishment of dopamine that restores concentration and the feeling of well being.  Of course anything could be happening.  One thing I know for sure is that this is probably the most direct method I know of how to change the levels of chemicals in our body, and somehow these changes trigger these levels to reset at a quicker pace than having to wait for an entire week.  This method has worked better than any of the medications and supplements I have tried...or should I say endured...

[Guthrie]

Pyropeach,

That method sounds interesting--when did you first discover it?  Do you find that it makes a difference whether the masturbation-without-orgasm session goes on for an extended period of time, repeatedly getting close to orgasm and then stopping, or does it work just as well if you simply get close to orgasm once and then stop?

Also, how soon after you have the POIS-inducing orgasm do you employ this 'reset' method?  Right away? Within a couple hours? Or the next day?

[pyropeach]

Discovered it about 3 years ago, but only started trying it in the recent year.  At least for me, the method works pretty well by getting close to orgasm only once and then stopping.  Repeated this method an additional time did not seem to have any additional affect that felt significant.  I've been able to successfully use this method in as little as within a few hours after getting the symptoms.  In a matter of minutes, the symptoms start to diminish and by the next day the symptoms are still there, but to the point where they're almost gone and I can get on with the day.  It sounds pretty good, but I'm not jumping for joy because it is a very inconvenient and frustrating thing to do,

My main worry about this is it being a placebo affect, which I doubt, but still consider it a possibility.

[hk1979]

pyropeach

thanks for sharing, as it explains also why smoking a cigarette after sex also helps a bit... nicotine elevates epinephrine and norepinephrine levels.

[Bizzy]

Can anyone recommend a top endocrinologist?

I dont think just an endocrinologist will be able to shed any more light. A research endocrinologist tied to a university would be the best way forward. Ill leave it up to you guys to find and presuade one.

[Guthrie]

Yes, I agree with Bizzy that a research endocrinologist, rather than simply a clinical endocrinologist, would be more likely to be of help.  It seems that many clinical endocrinologists are only trained to diagnose things that are already 'in the books.'

[hk1979]

exactly Guthrie! our doctors always refer to the books, and then find nothing related, therefor the reason why we are all monitoring this site.... waiting for a solution. it should be somebody thats more than a doctor. somebody that is a professor in endocrinology at a university. and I think he would not even charge us if it will make him famous!

I think we can contact the University of Oxford. Below is the link:

http://www.medsci.ox.ac.uk/gazette/previousissues/54vol2/Part19 [nofollow]

[demografx]

POIS FORUM ADVISOR - NEXT STEP

hk1979, excellent point about "POIS fame" AND "...more than a doctor needed"! - now, would someone please volunteer to initiate the contact with Oxford? (I'm a musician, and there are people here better qualified to write to a scientist than me, plus I have a bias with 75% POIS cure with Levitra). It should be mentioned that there is only one paper out on POIS, but that this is a critical cure mission, surely to be covered by the media, as was Dr Waldinger's POIS study/article). If Oxford doesn't cooperate there are many other prospects, and the same letter can be used.

[demografx]

For John21 and those of you who mentioned "blank stares" from doctors, I've been there!!! But maybe, just MAYBE, the 21 pages on this Forum reveal that POIS is............R E A L !!!!!!!! We also have some success to show, e.g., Levitra. But now we need to find out (just as an example here) what makes Levitra work for POIS, and how can everyone benefit whether they have ED or not?

I'm sure that if today we approached those same doctors who gave us blank stares in the past, and SHOWED them the 21 Pages here, that some of the doctors (not all, because after all - -  lazy is lazy []) might sit up and take notice. And then actually DO something about our POIS []

[neilep]

I would collect and put in this forum keyboards like Bayer, Novartis, Merck, Pfizer, Roche, Glaxo, Quintiles and POIS.
The target is to attract people and scientists to get here and learn about this uncovered illness that affect many men in this world.
Why not all of us write an request to  clinical.info@quintiles.com requiring an investigation about POIS as well?

Hi Solution,


May I ask if you are in any way affiliated with Quintiles ?

[John21 (OP)]

Solution:
... is well known that too much masturbation sucked the life force of a man.

B_Jim: Be careful with a such statement. We have a problem after ejaculation, but that's not a general rule. We can't afford to lose the little credibility that we have.

It may be possible that the phenomenon is more universal, but that only certain people are more affected in such a direct, extreme manner. I have wondered if many common everyday mental disturbances such as depression, bipolar, schizophrenia, emotional disturbances etc were partially born of "sex abuse", the product of lust in adolescence.

Unmentionable, unrecognized... unsolvable.

[hk1979]

or what is the consequences of having TOO MUCH ORGASMS over a spread of 20 years?...

[demografx]

B_Jim, an Oriental acupuncturist/herbal medicine practitioner years ago - when I trusted her, then told her about my POIS - was _convinced_ that my POIS was because I had (too) small adrenal glands.

[demografx]

Yes I am the owner..  just kidding...

I'm not sure if you're kidding about commercialism or not, but one serious point I have: the pharmaceutical giants have no interest in anything this small of a population. My guess is that POIS suffering is limited to a tiny, tiny percentage. Big Pharma only makes money on problems affecting large segments of the population.

[pyropeach]

Just out of curiosity, how many of us are there on this forum with POIS?

B_Jim, an Oriental acupuncturist/herbal medicine practitioner years ago - when I trusted her, then told her about my POIS - was _convinced_ that my POIS was because I had (too) small adrenal glands.

The last doctor I saw also thought the problems were in the adrenals.  However, they found no abnormalities from blood and urine tests.  I used to use DHEA thinking it would help with adrenal fatigue, but it always quickly wore off probably because it was acting more as neuralsteroid, and only masking the symptoms.

[Bizzy]

It may be possible that the phenomenon is more universal, but that only certain people are more affected in such a direct, extreme manner. I have wondered if many common everyday mental disturbances such as depression, bipolar, schizophrenia, emotional disturbances etc were partially born of "sex abuse", the product of lust in adolescence.

Unmentionable, unrecognized... unsolvable. Unthinkable in today's world.

I think you make a valid point about "sex abuse", too much sex. I think it is true for some people and for people who mix sex with drugs such as cocaine. But I can remember feeling confused, depressed and depersonalized from my very first few orgasms, "sex abuse" had not taken place yet. So I know POIS is not exclusively tied to "sex abuse", its a lot more complex.
As for other mental conditions becomming worse after orgasm, im sure that happens for some people. Why that happens is not known. The condition or underlying mechanism has not been studied.

[demografx]

SUGAR

I must admit that I'm guilty of excessive sugar intake for most of my life. Wonder if that's why I have POIS?? If so, I wonder what connection Levitra has...

[solution]

Me too. I even used to prepare and enjoy a drink made only with water sugar and ice. Eating bread with butter and sugar I ve used to do so when younger.

[Bizzy]

Heres some science that I worked out that may help explain why too much sugar is bad for the mind.
High sugar makes your insulin levels go up, which makes your growth hormone levels go down. Lower growth hormone levels is bad news because it allows for relatively higher CRF levels within the hypothalamus. Higher CRF levels at the hypothalamus maybe the cause of some mental illness.

[demografx]

Well, when Levitra works it's 75% magic for my POIS, but I continue my excess with sugar (no, I'm not proud of it). I wonder if I quit sugar and continue with Levitra if it would be a 100% cure? But sugar is soooooooooooooooo hard for me to quit!!! I'll just wait for B_Jim's experiment! []

[Bizzy]

I love sugar, it makes me feel better. Every cell in your body, including your brain cells, need sugar to function normally. I just dont think low to moderate amount of sugar is bad for you. I dont think you will achieve anything from quitting sugar.