[demografx]

And ya can go blind too! []

From masturbating? Yes, of course you can!

But I simply decided to stop as soon as I needed glasses  []

[reuniting]

I agree with Guthrie that it would be nice to know more. That said, the fact that most men masturbate a lot these days and only a percentage have extreme symptoms may not be reason enough to rule out past over-stimulation as a contributing factor to POIS symptoms.

I listen to the woes of recovering porn users a lot on my website. Many of the symptoms they report during recovery remind me of POIS symptoms. Most are fortunate in that their brains return to balance after six weeks or so of no porn and very little orgasm.

In their case, it's fairly clear that over-stimulation of the brain (which is incredibly easy to do today, given the potent sexual stimuli everywhere) has contributed to their discomfort, and that balance eases their symptoms.

Think of junk food. (I use junk food as an example, because, like orgasm, it has effects on the neurochemical balance of the reward circuitry of the brain.) Many people eat it because it's so enticing. Not everyone binges or becomes obese. Yet those who do have systems/brains that are apparently more sensitive to dysregulation from overly stimulating foods (and certain eating patterns) than other people do.

You can say their systems are the problem, but their behavior also contributes to the phenomenon. This may also be the case for some users of today's extreme sexual stimulation. Too much of a good thing may dysregulate some people for longer, or even permanently (although I sincerely hope not).

I do not think over-stimulation is the only factor in POIS symptoms. Nor do I think POIS can never occur for other reasons entirely. I just don't find the argument that "since everyone masturbates, everyone would have POIS, therefore excess can't be a factor" convincing. Everyone eats, too. But highly stimulating (enticing) food doesn't cause everyone the same problems.

Keep in mind that since porn videos became easy to stream about five years ago, today's porn is like *nothing* our ancestors' brains ever had to cope with as they evolved. Vids are highly stimulating, ever-novel, and with no apparent end to escalation in terms of kinkiness. Why should we assume our brains can consume this kind of extreme stimulation without ill effect just because some people aren't yet suffering?

Maybe those who suffer already just have sensitive brains. Maybe sensitive brains are a survival advantage in certain environments - and a liability in today's environment.

I am sorry that any of you are suffering. It sucks. Nor should you feel bad about past choices. But the concept of over-stimulation could be helpful in the future once you are back in balance. Experimentation should make clear the truth, either way.

[demografx]

reuniting, wonderful to see you again!  []

[demografx]

Dr John Crisler, top modern uptodate HRT/TRT specialist ie no caveman approach ...

"John Crisler quack" is not a Google category that I made up, it's a pre-existing Google category, with 19,400 results:
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp&q=john+crisler+quack&rlz=1W1DAUS_en&aq=2&aqi=g7g-m3&aql=&oq=john+crisler&gs_rfai=Cwc3Y7Nv5S5bJA5j2MvaGlb4MAAAAqgQFT9AmL6k&fp=c4fb31827b26355d

Pre-existing category as well is "John Crisler scam", with 20,900 results:
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&rlz=1W1DAUS_en&q=john+crisler+scam&aq=f&aqi=g1&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&fp=804594c8cf226f34

[demografx]

FYI everyone, "reuniting" discusses POIS in her new book! (And she has been a great friend of this forum to boot)


                 

[demografx]

Hardasnails is an expert in this area maybe
he could chime in  

Let's not even go there  []

(See my earlier post about him)

[demografx]

Reuniting, am I understanding you correctly in saying that you think POIS suffering is conceivably due to overstimulation of overly sensitive physiology? Thanks again for posting on this important POIS issue!

[Dave23]

Dr John Crisler, top modern uptodate HRT/TRT specialist ie no caveman approach ...

"John Crisler quack" is not a Google category that I made up, it's a pre-existing Google category, with 19,400 results:
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp&q=john+crisler+quack&rlz=1W1DAUS_en&aq=2&aqi=g7g-m3&aql=&oq=john+crisler&gs_rfai=Cwc3Y7Nv5S5bJA5j2MvaGlb4MAAAAqgQFT9AmL6k&fp=c4fb31827b26355d [nofollow]

Pre-existing category as well is "John Crisler scam", with 20,900 results:
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&rlz=1W1DAUS_en&q=john+crisler+scam&aq=f&aqi=g1&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&fp=804594c8cf226f34 [nofollow]

Dr Crisler who does have a DO is no quack. He was the man that brought hcg into TRT scene so men can still have children while on TRT. Before this men would have to go off trt for a period of time to try impregnate which they would be like the living dead during this peroid. Even then it wasnt 100% successful or even close. Its not an act a quack would achieve.

If you look at the content in the google list you provided, majority are from Finasteride/Propecia
users who claim Finasteride had no ED/sexual side effects. Dr Crisler has strongly in the past commented and made  articles on what long term use of Finasteride can cause. They couldnt accept the fact that one of the only few drugs to help keep loosing all their hair  would cause such effects not until it was too late. Finasteride side effects of ED/SD/penile shrinkage/permanant loss of sensation, depression etc etc have been increasing dramatically over the last few years so Dr John Crisler was right here in his prediction even though he got labeled a scammer/quack etc from the people who were on Finasteride.

Those 20000 hits dont compare to the 1,900,000 hits of Finasteride sexual side effects.
Its funny that the same type of people who were on Finasteride were accusing Dr Crisler that his Finasteride side effect claims were bogus are the same ones who are his patients now.

The rest of the others are from the same scienceblog with a personal hate and also from a Dr Scally who they both claim each other as quacks ...



Dr Crisler has his own public, busy forum where his patients provide their own positive/negative feedbacks from his protocols.Plus lecturing before 3,000 fellow physicians at the
American Academy of Anti-Aging Medicine international . Not something a quack would get away with.More like take your money and run , never to be seen again.

[Dave23]

Hardasnails is an expert in this area maybe
he could chime in  

Let's not even go there  []

(See my earlier post about him)

He'll come around and yes he can be less monologue believe it or not as seen in his 10000 post spread throughout the other health forums ... his thing is analysing blood/urine work etc maybe someone could drop a bait ;p

[demografx]

John C. writes a lot of articles for questionable "informational" sites that sell products on the same site. Products that purportedly cure the ailments that the authors write about! How unbiased is that?   [] Not very credible scientific "journal" writing. Hardly peer-reviewed!

You don't see any ads in well-respected journals such as JAMA (Journal of the American Medical Assn.) or NEJM (New England Journal of Medicine). Not because they can't use the money, but because the writing can easily become influenced, i.e., compromised/distorted by the advertisers' special interest in purveying their products to the public.

Example: if Androderm is an advertiser, you can bet your bottom dollar that you will  _never_ see an article written that slams testosterone patches! And conversely, if someone wants to write an article glorifying testosterone patches, s/he will be showered with flowers and given a "royalty" check to boot. The height of sleaze.

Well, I have faith that the forum participants here are solid grownups and can make up their own minds. I'm not writing to destroy your heroes, I just want people here to have as much balanced information as possible, both pro and con. Now they have much more of a balance than they did before.

Thank you very much for writing your perspective!

[demografx]

He'll come around and yes he can be less monologue believe it or not as seen in his 10000 post spread throughout the other health forums ... his thing is analysing blood/urine work etc maybe someone could drop a bait ;p

I'll believe it when I see it, and if not he's banned. BTW, urine testing can be deadly inaccurate in a number of areas, testosterone included.

[demografx]

Just want to add I have a medical book (1976) saying sexual excesses are destroying the nervous system in teens, of course it's not a proof of anything.

Martin, yes I've seen that comment repeated often elsewhere.

And ya can go blind too! []

I thought it was deafness!
I trust my book since it's a big dictionary, written and reviewed by a team of MDs working in hospital, and I hope based on clinical observations. What they say seems possible to me. For example a teen doesn't have his full amount of testosterone.

 

Martin, thank you for that! I didn't realize that teens have yet to fully develop their testosterone capacity. Very interesting. I think it lends some credence to the early excess theory - possibly leading to premature T-depletion.

[FinalPanic]

Good morning, and thank you for the welcomes to the forum - demografx thanks for the links. I have spent as much time over the w/e reading as much as I can. I will now state that I do suffer from this condition - the similarity in symptoms to others leaves me in no doubt.

The notion that creating an imbalance at a young age - possibly to more susceptible personalities does fit for me. I seem to remember curiosity got the better of me at about 12 years of age, like all kids I never looked back from that point. My problems started to develop at around 20 years along with other anxiety symptoms that just hit me out of the blue after an equally unexpected bout of insomnia. I have never really found my feet since over the ensuing 26 years. In fact like others I have spent most of this time hoping to wake one day to find that this all gone.

I am contemplating a visit to the local GP for the hell of it and see what they say - I expect if I mention the internet they will yawn and tell me to take more exercise and not go around self-diagnosing.

This forum has definitely bought me out of my feelings of isolation (I am sociable, but feel I suffer in silence). If the over exuberance of youth, combined with my personality type is to blame I can imagine the general reaction of the medical profession is going to be one of doubt. Have there been any POIS suffering doctors here at any point?

I did read about POIS affecting 'wet-dreams' etc - I have on occasion experienced this phenomena - but I have had absolutely no symptoms at all on any such occasion - I suspect I am much more relaxed in a sleep state and whatever bodily function is to blame for POIS after regular sex is less active during sleep.

I have found that taking a Nytol type sleep-aid speeds up my recovery. If I have a particularly awful day I will try to grab a few naps and take a Nytol at my regular bedtime (about midnight). This seems to induce deeper sleep and can help dramtically.

I feel I may be rambling again - but I have many years thoughts and reasoning to try and straighten out after reading so much on here.

[FinalPanic]

FYI everyone, "reuniting" discusses POIS in her new book! (And she has been a great friend of this forum to boot)


                 

Where do I go to find out more/buy this book? I am guessing it may be a website I have already visited recently, but there have been a few! Any link greatly appreicated. Thanks.

[Guthrie]

I do not think over-stimulation is the only factor in POIS symptoms. Nor do I think POIS can never occur for other reasons entirely. I just don't find the argument that "since everyone masturbates, everyone would have POIS, therefore excess can't be a factor" convincing. Everyone eats, too. But highly stimulating (enticing) food doesn't cause everyone the same problems.

Reuniting, thanks for your helpful response.  I certainly didn't mean to imply that "excess can't be a factor."  In fact, to the extent that our POIS is brought on by 'something we ourselves did,' then over-stimulation would certainly be a key possibility.

My main hesitation, however, is that there can be a common human tendency to find a reason to blame oneself for sufferings--especially if the cause is unknown.  This seems like even more of a possibility in case of sexual matters, which are so often associated with guilt in our culture.  So, in the case of POIS, we might be inclined to think, "What could I have done to have caused this to happen? Oh, maybe it was too much masturbation earlier in life."  While this could be the case, it could also be the case that POIS is brought on by a bodily-chemical state that is independent of our own actions.  

The example of porn addicts is a helpful comparison.  In that case, they are caught up in an abnormal addictive process, and so there is a more direct link between their actions and their symptoms.  On the other hand, if we think something like Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, one does not often think of it as brought on by some problematic action that the sufferer has habitually engaged in.

So, in the case of a rarer and under-studied phenomenon like POIS, it could potentially be more like porn addiction, but it could also potentially be more like Chronic Fatigue Syndrome.  Or, it could even be different for different people.  I think that it is important to keep an open mind and to continue to do research and experimentation, and not to automatically assume that it necessarily falls on either side.  I take it that you and I are in agreement about this, even though we might have different inclinations or hunches.  

The concern I have with comparing it to porn addiction is that it could lead to the attitude of "You should not try to 'cure' yourself of POIS through medical or physiological treatments--rather, the proper 'treatment' is simply to refrain from having orgasms."  Whereas if it is more like Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, the attitude could be "You have an illness that prevents your from engaging in activities that healthy people are able to engage in--therefore, you should try to find a cure or treatment that will enable you to engage in orgasm without experiencing such suffering."

Perhaps further research will reveal that POIS sufferers are simply inherently much more sensitive, and so they should refrain from orgasm.  But, since the jury is still out, I'd rather assume that a cure is possible, and that we should therefore direct our research efforts with that goal in mind.  

[demografx]

FYI everyone, "reuniting" discusses POIS in her new book! (And she has been a great friend of this forum to boot)


                 

Where do I go to find out more/buy this book? I am guessing it may be a website I have already visited recently, but there have been a few! Any link greatly appreicated. Thanks.

http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=cupid%27s+poisoned+arrow&tag=googhydr-20&index=aps&hvadid=3198309955&ref=pd_sl_75o2wl25qo_b

[FinalPanic]

FYI everyone, "reuniting" discusses POIS in her new book! (And she has been a great friend of this forum to boot)

Where do I go to find out more/buy this book? I am guessing it may be a website I have already visited recently, but there have been a few! Any link greatly appreicated. Thanks.

http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=cupid%27s+poisoned+arrow&tag=googhydr-20&index=aps&hvadid=3198309955&ref=pd_sl_75o2wl25qo_b [nofollow]

Ah yes, Amazon is a website I have visited many times :-) - I had not considered that this would be so freely available. Thank you.

[reuniting]

 I think that it is important to keep an open mind and to continue to do research and experimentation, and not to automatically assume that it necessarily falls on either side.  I take it that you and I are in agreement about this, even though we might have different inclinations or hunches.  

Yes, we are definitely in agreement. I'd be looking under all conceivable rocks if I were you.

In the case of food, it's likely that *both* behavior and inherently low dopamine receptors (which could be due to genetics or childhood trauma, or...?) are factors in dysregulation.

I also agree that blaming oneself is not helpful. That said, as you say, it's important to keep all hunches on the table - even at the risk of someone having to confront (and hopefully move past) any unfortunate feelings of shame.

What passes for normal sexual behavior today would probably have been viewed as excessive by most of our ancestors (and quite likely by their brains, too ;-) ). It's easy to lose sight of that as we're often assured that there can never be too much masturbation or orgasm...or too extreme stimulation to get there. For example, I was floored to see a highly respected sexologist - when a client came to him because he was masturbating to porn six hours a day - recount proudly that he diagnosed him as "merely having a procrastination problem" and sent him off for help with that.

Maybe I'm a Daoist at heart, because I think it's important to accept that behavior can have a major impact on subtle forces/balance within the body and brain. Reaching for a pill first to "fix" something (like POIS, which is probably often a neurochemical imbalance) can create more problems because today's psychotropics (for example) are like blunt hammers where the brain is concerned.

I generally don't post here because I know you guys "just want research to tell you which meds will fix the problem." I wish you well with that, but I'm pretty sure that even where meds play a role, behavior will, too, should someone be willing to experiment with it.

My site doesn't just deal with porn addicts. There are people who are exploring making love without the emphasis on orgasm. (See http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/cupids-poisoned-arrow/200908/another-way-make-love [nofollow]) These are normal people. :-) Those who experiment find that their balance changes in interesting ways over time. Decreasing intense stimulation to get to orgasm and increasing lots of subtler "rewarding" contact, such as daily affection, seems to bring unexpected rewards. They become more sensitive to life's subtler pleasures in general, experience fewer mood swings, find their partners more appealing, experience more depth of emotion during their lovemaking, and so forth. Something is going on in their brains that it would be nice to know more about.

Even the "porn guys" in our forum find that if they can masturbate/orgasm without the extreme stimulation of today's porn vids, and just focus on the sensual feelings of self-love, they have less fallout afterward. It seems more intense stimulation does not necessarily lead to greater overall satisfaction - probably due to the way our brains are set up. This may (or may not :-) ) be useful information for some of you, but I share it just in case you want to conduct your own experiments.

[Dave23]

John C. writes a lot of articles for questionable "informational" sites that sell products on the same site. Products that purportedly cure the ailments that the authors write about! How unbiased is that?   [] Not very credible scientific "journal" writing. Hardly peer-reviewed!

You don't see any ads in well-respected journals such as JAMA (Journal of the American Medical Assn.) or NEJM (New England Journal of Medicine). Not because they can't use the money, but because the writing can easily become influenced, i.e., compromised/distorted by the advertisers' special interest in purveying their products to the public.

Example: if Androderm is an advertiser, you can bet your bottom dollar that you will  _never_ see an article written that slams testosterone patches! And conversely, if someone wants to write an article glorifying testosterone patches, s/he will be showered with flowers and given a "royalty" check to boot. The height of sleaze.

Well, I have faith that the forum participants here are solid grownups and can make up their own minds. I'm not writing to destroy your heroes, I just want people here to have as much balanced information as possible, both pro and con. Now they have much more of a balance than they did before.

Thank you very much for writing your perspective!

No worries boss, all good as i was getting away from the main reason I came back to this forum to report of what cured my own POIS through many trial and error.

I came back to the forum to recommend testing done for POIS sufferers. Since being one of the first to post in this thread, I know how it felt to suffer POIS/SE/adrenal fatigue/hypothyroidism/hypogonadism etc for many years

Iam not the only one that has been cured of POIS/Se through proper testing and making the appropriate adjustments.

Hans may or may not be giving the chance to help the POIS sufferers out here but the man knows his stuff and he his actually the main consultant/assistant in Dr Overbeck in dealing with hormone imbalances plus many other health issues everyday dealing with their own clients. Having been through many of his own health issues he not only talks it but has walked the path as well unlike many doctors.

On the other male health/anti aging/Se forums there is been alot of people who suffer these similar POIS symptoms/side effects after an orgasm but they DO NOT know about this pois forum or even know the term POIS but they are working along with Hans and seem to be getting alot better than they were in first place.  

Hans already replied to his post whether he has the proper hormone evaluation done such as
ft3 ft4 reverse t3,tsh, cortisol salvary, vitamin B-12, folate, fractional catecholamine plasma, total testosteorne , shbg, e2 e2 sensitive essay, cbc, cmp, ferritin etc

[RhythmSpring]

Some Food For Thought:

POIS is not necessarily a malady *caused* by orgasm.

POIS is an illness that we have all the time, something unrelated to orgasm--such as depression, chronic fatigue, IBS, arthritis, or some other auto-immune disorder.

It's just that abstaining from orgasm is a powerful coping mechanism for our other illness because doing so gradually builds our hormone and neurotransmitter-related resiliency.

And orgasm--a temporary blow to our neurochemical buffer and strength--allows whatever illness we have to return to prominence.

This explains why we all have such varied symptoms and treatments that work for us; we all have different illnesses, but what we all have in common is that orgasm worsens it.

Perhaps we are a bit too focused on the orgasm mechanism itself, ignoring what the symptoms point to--something possibly right underneath our noses.