[Dave23]

demo may be a testimonial for this since his t levels were fine but he had increased success against pois after taking extra testosterone.

My T levels weren't fine, they were clearly deficient, shown by repeated testing. Bringing my T-levels to low normal worked very well on my POIS, but bringing the T-levels even higher (my idea) worked even better.

But I do think it worthwhile to do careful experimentation with a physician, preferably an endocrinologist, to see if an "extra" boost of testosterone can work for many POIS sufferers, regardless of what their T-reading is, as long as it's not already high.

But TRT RISK FACTORS - including the possibility of losing one's ability to re-start T on their own - must also be carefully weighed!

i don't think imbalanced hormones are the problem.

Huh? Testosterone is a hormone!

Agreed with Demo here.I too have to be on TRT for the rest of my life and do regular testing on E2 and total+free/bio test to make sure its right at the top range but E2 around 20ish to make sure high E2 isnt impacting or diminishing the high test benefits so Iam POIS free.

Its not only just myself & Demo that have been cured of POIS from improving hormonal state but theres a couple others on this forum and also many on the sexual exhaustion forum.

Although if one has low testosterone it can be raised without TRT if one has high estradiol, high SHBG, high prolactin, diet change etc

[daveman]

Our little pharma vs non-pharma "debate" here

I say "little" above, because from where I sit, I don't think anyone here is disagreeing that much with the other(s)!

I think that it's just a question of degree of one approach vs another.

Or am I wrong? Please think about this for just a moment and reply if you wish: is anyone here still thinking that the solution to ending POIS is only-one-way-not-the-other?

My latest protocol is working for me and for the moment, without drugs or treatment, and some of it came from meditaton and tuning in, BUT much of it came from information that has come from this forum. Technical, scientific, and probably better directed than most medical facilities.

There may be  many of you who can work with JUST this information and develop protocols in conjunction with doctors.

Probably none that could do it without.

The combination is working well for me.

[Guthrie]

Oh and if it is depletion from being overactive sexually - how much do you need to do - surely every porn star and nightclub nympho would be suffering a life of abject hell by now!

Yes but POIS may sometimes be caused by overactive sex while premature. Some of us have wondered if it might be due to excessive sex (usually masturbation) during early childhood development, before the system is ready.

Makes perfect sense to me.

I dont know, i didnt start till like 8th grade whichi is kinda late, i did excesseviely but what young boy do you know didnt.

I think CCconfucius's point (and FinalPanics's as well) is very important--there's been a recurring tendency to ascribe POIS to 'early sexual excess', but it seems that many if not most males can be said to have engaged in 'excessive' masturbation, especially in their teen years, and yet most males do NOT (apparently) suffer from POIS.  So attributing POIS to earlier sexual actions may be an example of a post hoc ergo propter hoc logical fallacy.  

If there were a type of past action common to POIS sufferers that most people had not engaged in, that would be more indicative.  For instance, if all POIS sufferers had previously lived within 2 miles of a nuclear power plant, or had all been previously addicted to heroin, or had all had a kangaroo as a childhood pet, then there might be more grounds for asserting a causative factor.  But in terms of past sexual activity, I remain unconvinced that there's a demonstrable difference between that of POIS sufferers and those who have not been afflicted.

I'm not ruling out the possibility entirely, but I don't know how we'd go about measuring or testing this--we'd have to know more about the typical masturbatory/sexual practices of the populations as a whole, and then see if it is significantly different from what POIS sufferers have reported.

[daveman]

All of the mecanisms I don't have clear yet. I'm leaning away from thinking that my case is entirely unique to the vasectomy reversal, but leaning towards an overall immune system malfunction that could involve (the lack of) progesterone.

i don't think imbalanced hormones are the problem. my progesterone was well over the normal range when i had it tested about 36 hours after an NE.  i think my body was trying to suppress my own immune system by cranking up progesterone which helps suppress the immune system. only taking a monster dose before sex will help suppress the immunological cascade which follows. when i took a dosage of progesterone after an O, it was to late to stop the effects, which tell me that progesterone levels are not the problem.  the articles i have read about androgenic steroids say that they are involved with suppressing the immune system, which include testosterone and progesterone.  demo may be a testimonial for this since his t levels were fine but he had increased success against pois after taking extra testosterone.  demos aderall besides producing norepinephrine, which makes you feel good also causes the body to produce adrenaline and cortisol, which lower the immune response.

Maybe you can help me out here.

I can understand why the woman produces more progeterone just after ovulation, and beyond if the ovum becomes fertilized. But I don't understand why the male system would produce progesterone after an "O". He doesn't have anything left in his system that could potentially fire the immune system? Or is it preparing to safeguard newly produced sperm?

when i took a dosage of progesterone after an O, it was to late to stop the effects, which tell me that progesterone levels are not the problem.

I'm not sure I undersand why that means that progesterone levels are not the problem. I'm not doubting you, I just personally don't understand. It could have meant that as you said, it was just too late to stop the cascade (working against the momentum).

I'd like to be able to understand this whole process a little better.

[martin88]

I think CCconfucius's point (and FinalPanics's as well) is very important--there's been a recurring tendency to ascribe POIS to 'early sexual excess', but it seems that many if not most males can be said to have engaged in 'excessive' masturbation, especially in their teen years, and yet most males do NOT (apparently) suffer from POIS.

I agree it may not be true for everyone, specially the cases who have POIS later in their life but I think it's true in my case.
I started to have ejaculation at 13 which is normal, but I was probably under developped for my age because of very bad diet at this time.
Then I'm not sure why I had orgasms everyday : certainly not because of a real desire, I could easily stop if I wanted. Maybe it was obsessive, to release tension, or definitely because I heard something like "use it or lose it".
I can't say if I could prevent POIS at this time, but one thing is sure, I really regret this excesses now. (excesses=more than what you really want).
Just want to add I have a medical book (1976) saying sexual excesses are destroying the nervous system in teens, of course it's not a proof of anything.

[lauracostis]

demo may be a testimonial for this since his t levels were fine but he had increased success against pois after taking extra testosterone.

My T levels weren't fine, they were clearly deficient, shown by repeated testing. Bringing my T-levels to low normal worked very well on my POIS, but bringing the T-levels even higher (my idea) worked even better.

But I do think it worthwhile to do careful experimentation with a physician, preferably an endocrinologist, to see if an "extra" boost of testosterone can work for many POIS sufferers, regardless of what their T-reading is, as long as it's not already high.

But TRT RISK FACTORS - including the possibility of losing one's ability to re-start T on their own - must also be carefully weighed!

i don't think imbalanced hormones are the problem.

Huh? Testosterone is a hormone!

Agreed with Demo here.I too have to be on TRT for the rest of my life and do regular testing on E2 and total+free/bio test to make sure its right at the top range but E2 around 20ish to make sure high E2 isnt impacting or diminishing the high test benefits so Iam POIS free.

Its not only just myself & Demo that have been cured of POIS from improving hormonal state but theres a couple others on this forum and also many on the sexual exhaustion forum.

Although if one has low testosterone it can be raised without TRT if one has high estradiol, high SHBG, high prolactin, diet change etc

what about the 95+% of people on this site who get ignored by there doctors because all the tests come out just fine, with in normal ranges. if everybody on this site had a hormone imbalance, then their doctor would do hormone augmentation and fix there pois. pois would be a simple disease and everybody would be fixed. i am simple saying that progesterone is acting like a major immune suppressor that needs to be taken before O. 
if my test(36 hours after O) shows that my levels are two to tree times a regular males progesterone, how is taking more progesterone going to help at that point, it would be hard to argue that i am deficient in progesterone and that taking more will fill a void in the body.  high levels of progesterone is not causing the problems either because i tested the progesterone outside of pois and it did not precipitate symptoms of pois.

[lauracostis]

this excess thing seems like it would be impossible to figure out because if we were on a different forum for a different disease and some said "i think it is from excess masturbation, what do you guys think" most of the dudes on there would agree that they have that in common. if it was a forum called sexual exhaustion.com then all the men would pretty much agree that was the cause.

[John21 (OP)]

Perhaps it isn't related to early masturbation at all, but it might at least be a contributing factor. I just know that I started early and it was frequent and intense.

Last week I had an NE. I have been continuing the bilberry, but only taking it every second day. As well, this time I didn't eat sweet potatoes and salmon or trout in the days immediately following the NE. While I didn't have my old POIS cognitive symptoms I did have some powerful stress. As has been noted here before, stress in-POIS seems to be amplified to a higher level. I think it is this amplification that can do damage. My mental stress eased off but my lower back went out and then a day or so later my upper back/neck became sore as well. Next time I will be sure to pounce on the sweet potatoes/ fatty fish, and bilberry daily, as this has been what I consumed in my recent POIS-free episodes.

[demografx]

Guthrie, that was an extremely good summation of the alleged linkage between POIS and early excess!

[demografx]

John, many thanks for the continued observation, logging, and reporting!

[demografx]

Laurac, you're absolutely right, I may be contradicting myself when I say hormone imbalance, because I'm also saying that testosterone augmentation of even a normal reading might work!

Whew, this is getting complicated!  []

[daveman]

what about the 95+% of people on this site who get ignored by there doctors because all the tests come out just fine, with in normal ranges.

But not necesarily normal when considering proportions one hormone to another or taking into account age.

i'm simple saying that progesterone is acting like a major immune suppressor that needs to be taken before O.

Would a normal person automatically produce this pregesterone beforehand, or perhaps doesn't need it? (Does the arousal sequence have something to do with it or do we have an unusual immune system problem?)

if my test(36 hours after O) shows that my levels are two to tree times a regular males progesterone, how is taking more progesterone going to help at that point, it would be hard to argue that i am deficient in progesterone and that taking more will fill a void in the body.

Have you at some point taken progesterone the required time beforehand of the "O", and if so did it help? I assume that when you took this test 36 hrs. later, you hadn't consumed any progesterone.

high levels of progesterone is not causing the problems either because i tested the progesterone outside of pois and it did not precipitate symptoms of pois.

How was this test? I understand that you took a dose and it didn't do anything unusual.


Thanks in advance. The answer to these questions will help my quest a lot.



[/quote]

[demografx]

Just want to add I have a medical book (1976) saying sexual excesses are destroying the nervous system in teens, of course it's not a proof of anything.

Martin, yes I've seen that comment repeated often elsewhere.

[daveman]

Just want to add I have a medical book (1976) saying sexual excesses are destroying the nervous system in teens, of course it's not a proof of anything.

Martin, yes I've seen that comment repeated often elsewhere.

And ya can go blind too! []

[lauracostis]

what about the 95+% of people on this site who get ignored by there doctors because all the tests come out just fine, with in normal ranges.

But not necesarily normal when considering proportions one hormone to another or taking into account age.

i'm simple saying that progesterone is acting like a major immune suppressor that needs to be taken before O.

Would a normal person automatically produce this pregesterone beforehand, or perhaps doesn't need it? (Does the arousal sequence have something to do with it or do we have an unusual immune system problem?)

if my test(36 hours after O) shows that my levels are two to tree times a regular males progesterone, how is taking more progesterone going to help at that point, it would be hard to argue that i am deficient in progesterone and that taking more will fill a void in the body.

Have you at some point taken progesterone the required time beforehand of the "O", and if so did it help? I assume that when you took this test 36 hrs. later, you hadn't consumed any progesterone.

high levels of progesterone is not causing the problems either because i tested the progesterone outside of pois and it did not precipitate symptoms of pois.

How was this test? I understand that you took a dose and it didn't do anything unusual.


Thanks in advance. The answer to these questions will help my quest a lot.

response:
1) you are right about possible hormone proportion/ratios, pms is exactly caused by an undesirable ratio between progesterone and estrogen levels.  females will feel like total crap if they dont have enough progesterone proportional to their estrogen level.  pms symptom even sound quite similar to pois symptoms.  thats why i originally thought low progesterone levels might be the cause when we stumbled on to the article/case report about progesterone. my tests and testing with progesterone have lead me to believe that the mechanism of action that has helped patient X in the article and limejuice are not based on replacing a progesterone deficiency.

2)i think the shock of what i believe to be an immune response of some kind has triggered my body to produce progesterone in an attempt lower/suppress what is an overboard reaction to some type of antigen. i believe this antigen to be some type of hormone released after O. probably the gonadotropic hormone FSH or LH, but probably FSH. i guess that because i assume that the body would like to crank up production of sperm immediately to replace the load it just lost.

3)i have not been able take progesterone before hand at the required time. i have not had sex or masturbated in over six months, maybe more. not since i read john21 posts about being mostly cured. i am positive that my pois symptom are directly proportional to the amount of fluid i lose during an O. i usually wake up in time during an NE to limit the amount of fluid by doing clenching technique. it is hard to say how much fluid went retrograde into my blatter, i always get very minor pois symptoms even if no fluid comes out and it seems like i have caught it in time.

yes you are correct when you assume that i had not taken progesterone before i had my progesterone levels taken. my doctor did not prescribe the meds to me intill after i had the test done so that there was a base level to compare it to.

4)daveman i have taken both the synthetic progesterone tablets prescribed by my doctor and a high quality micronized cream both in and out of pois, and it did not seem to cause pois for me at least.

i hope this clarifies your questions better

[lauracostis]

Just want to add I have a medical book (1976) saying sexual excesses are destroying the nervous system in teens, of course it's not a proof of anything.

Martin, yes I've seen that comment repeated often elsewhere.

And ya can go blind too! []

and grow hair on the palms of your hands also, i actually cant discount that may have added to the problem, but most of the 6 billion people on the planet dont have a disease state associated with sex, the porn stars seem to be fine,  "unless that is that we are all over sexed porn stars and we havent yet mentioned this commonality" or we may all be their greatest fans

[lauracostis]

Progesterone needs to be tested!

people need to get a baseline test done and at least try taking it once or twice so we have some more data to work with.

 Defsync you have basically already volunteered for genetic engineering and Frankenstein like surgeries 

[martin88]

Just want to add I have a medical book (1976) saying sexual excesses are destroying the nervous system in teens, of course it's not a proof of anything.

Martin, yes I've seen that comment repeated often elsewhere.

And ya can go blind too! []

I thought it was deafness!
I trust my book since it's a big dictionary, written and reviewed by a team of MDs working in hospital, and I hope based on clinical observations. What they say seems possible to me. For example a teen doesn't have his full amount of testosterone.

 

[daveman]

Laurac, thanks yes there's some good stuff there. Gives me more studying to do and a direction.

[Dave23]

what about the 95+% of people on this site who get ignored by there doctors
because all the tests come out just fine, with in normal ranges. if everybody on this
site had a hormone imbalance, then their doctor would do hormone augmentation
and fix there pois. pois would be a simple disease and everybody would be fixed.
i am simple saying that progesterone is acting like a major immune suppressor
that needs to be taken before O.  
if my test(36 hours after O) shows that my levels are two to tree times a regular
males progesterone, how is taking more progesterone going to help at that point,
it would be hard to argue that i am deficient in progesterone and that taking more
will fill a void in the body.  high levels of progesterone is not causing the problems
either because i tested the progesterone outside of pois and it did not precipitate
symptoms of pois.

I had normal ranges according to my own several drs & neuro with a total testosterone number
of 300 range 250 - 780  

Not only until did my own research and with help of others going through same thing
that something wasnt right here. Found out the top range was for late teens to early 20s
when ofc testosterone is at its highest in a males life but
still they said it was normal for an early 20s male to have this 300 total test level
comparable to a healthy 60yr old.


What tests were taking in these 95% of people on this site? I bet there wasnt enough
types of testing done ie amino acids+vitamin+mineral urine, Thyroid free t3+free t3 TSH,
prolactin, pregnenolone, progesterone shbg, total t+free/bio testosterone, estradiol,
4x saliva cortsiol, dhea serum, dht, toxic metal/elements hair analysis, Rhiens full hormone panel 24hr urine
too see how one metabolises/uses up their hormones
and many more which can all effect the symptoms one feels after orgasm.

Also were the tests done in severe POIS mode or were they done
when one was feeling not too bad? How about doing the same tests in pois mode and
not in POIS mode to see if any changes occur ?
 

Thats only if the doctor is a specialist in hormone balancing in first place and there arent
too many of these about from my own experiences as written in previous posts and also
many others experiences over on the se, meso forums.

If one is going to a general practioner to take these tests and have them
analysied, they only go by what they have been taught in medical school which is,
if the level is between the highest and lowest even if its 10% then your fine, your normal they arent taught
to look at the cause or whats causing it to be near low/high range. Band aid approach is their speciality
not root cause.

Sometimes you wont even see your own result, they will say you are normal but you have no
idea of what your own hormone reading was.It could be 10% within the lowest range but you
wouldnt know. One expects them to know what is normal or not/healthy or not
because they are classified as doctors so one will leave it at that and assume there
normal/healthy when symptoms point to clearly not normal/healthy especially
with pois sufferers.

Its happened to just about everyone ive spoken
to the last few years on hormonal testing with local doc/gps.

Sometimes standard ranges arent the be all end all.A good doc will look at symptoms more than anything. So if one does have decent hormonal levels , it may be that they need more or less of one or other in order for a symptom too improve or be totally cured.  Hormones can be underestimated, alittle nudge up or down even a 30% change can make a huge difference in how one feels.


Do these local gps try match list of symptoms to limited bloodwork results? Not a chance because
if you talk about your symptoms and your bloodwork is normal you will be papped on some antidepressant
which will make you worse which would cause hormone imbalance and if really unlucky get papped
with a mental physiatrist because its all in your head.

Another band aid approach from run of the mill docs these days is to stick someone
with low testosterone straight away on testosterone replacement.



This is even before checking what could be causing testosterone to be low in first place like
 LH+FSH,estradiol, shbg, prolactin, cortisol saliva, dhea s,
free t3, free t4 reverse t3, vitamin+minerals+amino acids, looking at diet etc

99% of the people i have chatted with, with POIS/Se over the years from various forums their own
 docs didnt do these tests, not even a few of these tests were done on patients with low testosterone
before sticking them on TRT when all these factors can lower testosterone and there
are plenty of studies out there proven.


So its not just an easy case of doc sees hormone imbalance and then adds hormones.
One would need to know & do all the required testing first.

If one is low or high even in range
then doc would then need to find the cause through other types of testing
which includes  saliva, urine, stool, hair etc too see why its high/low.
Then makes the changes through natural route first before any types of drugs/hormones are even
taking, going by how one feels during these changes, how symptoms change, improve etc. No band aid approach if natural route can do the job. Drugs/hormones is last restort but for the
local gp/docs,  meds/hormones is their first line of attack.


One shouldnt just take hormones like progesterone without even testing it. Like you say
its all individual and thats why testing is important, more so than just simply taking random
supplements and hormones from my experience and others but its common sense foremost.

Men taking too much progesterone or having healthy levels of prog
and then adding more bioidentical progesterone can lead to down the road,
penile shrinkage, ED, lost of libido etc due to it heavily lowering DHT.


Pregnenolone would be a better route depending on how the pathways work
on the individual. Dr John Crisler, top modern uptodate HRT/TRT specialist ie no caveman approach ...
he usually prescibes 50-100mg preg TD cream daily for people who suffer anxiety. He says 10/10
it has cured their social/general anxiety.


Thats just the start ... did these docs who did these tests for the 95% people
on this site check their liver, gut etc for over/under methylation pathways to see if one is properly detoxifying all toxins ...

Effects everything from fatigue, sleep, brain fog, cognitive ability, feeling apart from the world, hot n cold body temp changes,
anxiety, ability to handle stress, helps any excess baggage, hypoglycaemia  symptoms, reduced bp,
Hypothalamic-pituitary-gonadal axis  and tons more . Hardasnails is an expert in this area maybe
he could chime in