[demografx]

I'm very tired after orgasm to the point i can hardly walk or talk to people for days. Considering this i think it's normal if mood is going down for a while. I feel that fatigue came first, before mood disorders. I don't know how many people here took ssri without success. (However this point is not clear for me, same thing for drugs touching to dopamine and noradrenaline). I think at the beginning we were focusing on the endocrinologist because of the cortisol theory and people who have been cured with hormones. I suggest to keep our initial path for now until we have new findings. While doing this we can also write to psychiatrists/neuroscientist, the more we try the more we'll get. Unfortunately practitionners are too busy (and i understand them in a way) to really focus on our problem, but hopefully one day will come where a rare illness will find the rare doctor.

For now , fight alone !

Martin, I agree with you wholeheartedly. Except for "fight alone!" I fought alone for 30 years, but with you and all the others sharing ideas at POIS/TNS I feel less drained and more hopeful now that it's a "group fight" !

[demografx]

Demografx I see you are doing a great job as forum moderator

Thanks, mellivora! And best wishes back to you!

[yukka]

ich möchte Sie hier Willkommen heiβen. Mein Deutsch ist keineswegs perfekt, aber ich könnte vielleicht für sie übersetzen. Die wichtigste Sache dass wir tun können ist dieser Thema zu besprechen und wir interessieren uns für ihre Erfahrungen =) Hoffentlich hören wir bald von dir!

Thanks rapidgaming, your german language is perfect []


@ Martin

my DHT test was done hours after orgasm, also have had 1-2 orgasm/day the weeks before.


The same result here (study)

Orgasmic frequency in males – whether through sexual intercourse
or masturbation – correlated positively with free, biologically
active testosterone, serum testosterone or dihydrotestosterone (DHT)"
(Kraemer et al. 1976, Monti et al. 1977, Brown et al. 1978, Knussmann et al. 1986, Dabbs & Mohammed 1992)

------------------------------------------------------------ ---

BMJ 1995;310:1289-1291 (20 May)
Papers
Contribution of dihydrotestosterone to male sexual behaviour
Christos S Mantzoros, Emmanuel I Georgiadis, head, Endocrine Unit,a Dimitrios Trichopoulos, professor and chief b
a 401 Military Hospital, Athens, Greece Christos Mantzoros, resident in medicine, b Department of Epidemiology, Harvard School of Public Health, Boston, Massachusetts 02215, USA

Correspondence to: Dr Mantzouros, Department of Endocrinology, RN 324, Beth Israel Hospital, Harvard Medical School, 330 Brookline Avenue, Boston, Massachusetts 02115, USA.

Abstract

Objective: To document the relative importance of endogenous sex steroids in modulating the frequency of orgasms, the dominant aspect of sexual behaviour in healthy eugonadal men.
Design: Measurement of adrenal and testicular sex steroids in a sample of army recruits and study of their relation to frequency of orgasms ascertained by questionnaire after potential confounding variables were controlled for.
Setting: Military campus and military hospital laboratories in Athens, Greece.
Subjects: 92 consecutively enrolled healthy male recruits aged 18-22 years.
Main outcome measures: Weekly number of orgasms. Serum concentrations of testosterone, dehydroepiandrosterone sulphate, dihydrotestosterone, oestradiol, oestrone, {delta}-4-androstenedione, and sex hormone binding globulin.
Results: Serum dihydrotestosterone concentration was the only independent hormonal predictor of the frequency of orgasms; an increase in concentration of 1.36 nmol/l (about 2 SD) corresponded to an average increase of one orgasm a week.

"more orgasm = more DHT"

Conclusions: Differences in concentrations of circulating dihydrotestosterone within the normal range may represent a major predictor of sexual activity in healthy young men.

[demografx]

Hello yukka,

Thank you for your posts. yukka, would you be interested in writing a letter or an email to The Department of Endocrinology at Harvard's Beth Israel Hospital to see if they would help advise us here at this Forum to find a POIS cure? We have a wealth of information to offer them. Thank you for reading this and considering it!

As I hope you're aware, there are several template/form letters that have been written here - including on this page - that you can use.

[demografx]

TO COUNTERPOINTS

I have written some letters. I feel like we should ideally have a separate place for releasing details of people we have written to to protect their privacy and to prevent them being inundated with letters (hence my suggestion to have a password protected section of a forum for members of the forum only if we end up making a new forum).

COUNTERPOINTS, do you think your new project can accomodate this?

[demografx]

PROGRESS

I am very hopeful. We are gathering steam! Letters out. Templates in place. YouTube in progress. Questionnaire site in progress. Exciting stuff compared to just a few short months ago!!! Thanks all!!!!

[cookie87]

Hello there everyone.  My name is Dan and I just recently came about this forum.  It seems to be something I’ve been looking for for a VERY long time…  Something I’ve been feverishly looking for an answer to; why, as long as I can remember (since I started or not too soon after) feel so terrible physiologically after I masturbate.  Being a very sensitive topic that one naturally comes with a built-in difficulty talking openly to people about, my progress on this topic has been nonexistent.  To have a label that hits the symptoms right on is such a relief words cannot even begin to express how relieved I feel about it, in a way. (the true relief comes when we figure out a way to put an end to it all!)

I just turned 21 a month ago and the symptoms of POIS have plagued me ever since I started masturbating.  It all happened in baby steps, probably first discovering “the joy” at 11 and probably discovering the orgasm half way through high school, although it may have been sooner than that.  I can’t pinpoint the exact details or if it’s always been completely like this, but the procedure goes like something like this.  Something arouses me, be it a visual or just some fantasy comes into my head.  If it all depends on where I am of course and the circumstances, but in a situation when I can, I go in to the bathroom and act on it.  Or “save it for later”.  Okay, this is the normal part that’s no different.  So I go masturbate and reach orgasm, which may take different lengths of time.   I have alternate methods, like lying down and using a towel, or sitting on the toilet and using my hand.  Once I’m done and have cleaned up, within minutes the symptoms appear. “Extreme tiredness, difficulty concentrating, loss of speech fluency and cloudy mindedness, and “brain fog” nail it exactly.  In most cases I masturbate right before showering, so it will all begin to sink during the shower, for example, so by the time I get out it’s like “Gah… why did I have to do that”? 

Yes, I know what’s going to happen and expect it every time but continue to masturbate, which of course is a no-brainer knowing the sex drive is that powerful where we will all make the sacrifice.  I’ve done many withdrawal attempts over the years but I always “loose the battle”.

My situation is much more complicated.  I go to psychotherapy, as I have a diagnoses of Asperger’s Syndrome, although I mild case of it I still have many of the symptoms, and what has stemmed from it is cases of anxiety and depression.  Although I’m not on anything right now, for the past 3 years different psychiatrists have experimented many different medications in the anti-depressant and anti-anxiety families, most SSRIs.  The experiences with these have weakened my sex drive and times and at when in effect weakened my orgasms as well.  But first off, the medication side effects, no matter what it was always had so kind of a negative effect similar to POIS, namely the brain fog, although I would say it felt a bit different.  So at that rate it would be like a double whammy.  But like I said, medications have been out of the picture, but the POIS (what I’m labeling myself with at the moment anyway) is still wrecking havoc on my life.  As of lately, for whatever reason I have also been seeing what I’m assuming as a serotonin dip after my orgasms, so I’ll masturbate before my night shower and then, when the low feeling sinks in and the house gets dark… Yeah, quite the unpleasant feeling.
For awhile I didn’t bother to do any research or even label this as an illness, as I thought it was something everyone experienced.  But you never hear about it in the media, for example a couple doesn’t say they’re going to have sex on a sitcom and explain they will have to set aside a few days afterwards due to some sort of negative feeling, do they?

I also admit at times I do tend to masturbate quite often, like multiple times a day which I read can cause similar symptoms we are talking about here due to the fact you’re pushing for chemicals to be released and used faster than the body can produce them, which causes the stress.  Some things to add before I end my first, introductory post.  I notice the symptoms are worse and maybe a bit longer lasting when I use the sitting up, hand method rather than the lying down.  The sitting up does take longer too, so may have something to do with it.  Also, I don’t always need to reach orgasm to have the symptoms, as for one reason or another there are times I masturbate and do not reach one, and still suffer.

I just started talking to my psychologist about all this, and he was initially baffled and predicted my primary physician would even more so be. He recommended I do more online research and said he would look into it as well when he could.  If participation in forums with people of similar symptoms was possible, he recommended joining in so here I am.

-Dan

[demografx]

Welcome, Dan! I do think you're in "the right place" and share the same bewildering malady as the rest of us. We also felt like you, relieved to finally find SOMEONE who knows what the heck's going on with this!

Your psychologist sounds like a good ally. Most of us have experienced blank stares - and worse - from the medical/professional world.

So sit back and enjoy the ride. Certainly contribute if you can (e.g., we're looking for an endocrinologist/advisor who can sift through all our posts and suggest cures). We have had some breakthroughs here. I, for example, have found Levitra (inappropriate for you I'm sure, it's mainly for older folks) to be 75% effective against my POIS symptoms - all because this Forum made me more keenly aware of what chemicals I put into my body and how they might affect POIS.

One hope I have, for example, is that an outside advisor to this Forum might see which components of Levitra are working to relieve POIS for me...and why. Then this information may be generalized - again, hopefully - to a cure for all! I'm not 100% sure it's appropriate or safe for someone without ED (erectile dysfunction) to take this medication. It can affect the heart, I think. But a "POIS-modified Levitra" (if that proves to work) would be a nice dream for us to realize. Heck, though, I'm getting greedy and want to see a 100% - not 75% - cure!

Besides, we mostly don't need stronger erections [], we need relief from horrible after-orgasm symptoms that last for long, agonizing days!

Read some of the past posts and you'll see other positive results people have had here. But PLEASE be very careful and review any curative ideas with your doctor. First, make sure your physician is not the average physician who has no clue and MIGHT NOT WANT TO KNOW about POIS! We have all run into doctors like that. If you find one like that, RUN! Fire him and then find one who is like your psychologist. POIS is not a well-known, researched condition. But look around here, and there's no doubt at all that it's a full-blown legitimate malady. You might even have a better medical reception if you print out and show some of the pages here that tell how deadly serious this thing is.

Best wishes again, Dan. My hope is that you don't go through 30+ more years of POIS like I did. And, happily now, it's highly unlikely! So stick around for the pioneering fun here!

[demografx]

Fantastic job Mellirova. Today i have a severe derealisation 10 days after last one. But I sleep very bad  since a week and I think adrenal glands can't do the job when you sleep bad several days... The other point (only for me) of this is damn computer and fluorescent lights. When i use too much computer i sleep bad and feel like sleeping... :/

B_JIM: I HOPE YOU FEEL BETTER SOON!!

[Michael8028]

Just found a forum that is based mainly on sexual exhaustion :

http://recover.forumup.org/forum-4-recover.html

Lots of articles here as well regarding POIS :

www.actionlove.com

There seems too be some people on the above forum who have
had some success with treating ejaculation recovery and brain fog
by eating 4-6 raw eggs a day due too the amount of choline in it.

Has anyone tried this ?

[Counterpoints]

I think most of us have heard of actionlove.com.  It was one of the first websites that addressed issues of this kind.  It was discussed in this thread on this forum.  I think most of us felt it seemed kind of sketchy.

[Michael8028]

Just got some new tests done :

Free T3 4.5   2.5 - 6.5 Optimal 6.0 +
SHBG 16 15 - 48 Optimal 23 - 28
IGF-1 277 100 - 300
PSA 2.5  0.5 - 5 Optimal 0.5 - 2

Cost £95 or so from ZRT

Thyroid is not too bad although should be higher for my age.
Shbg is too low which indicates a Thyroid or Insulin problem.
In process of checking Insulin resistance.(£55)
IGF-1/HGH is good.
Prostate not too bad but could be lower as tends too increase with age.

Next I will be checking 24 hr Cortisol saliva test(£80) which is taking morning, noon, afternoon and evening. I will take this test the day after ejaculation when POIS is at its worst. My first morning cortisol test came in at:

4.1 3.7 - 9.0 Low

If low again then I will start cortisol treatment slowly and possibly Armour for Thyroid if needed.


Previous results:

Estradiol (E2) 1.0 pg/ml 0.5-2.2

Progesterone 4230H pg/ml 12-100

Estriol (E3) 3.0 pg/ml 0-3.0

Estrone (E1) 4.2H pg/ml 0-3.0

Testosterone(Bio) 254 pg/ml 115-3700(5-50mg topical 12-24 hr)

Dheas 9.9 ng/ml 2-23(Age dependant)

Cortisol Morning 4.1 ng/ml 3.7-9.5

[Michael8028]

I think most of us have heard of actionlove.com.  It was one of the first websites that addressed issues of this kind.  It was discussed in this thread on this forum.  I think most of us felt it seemed kind of sketchy.

I agree.

Some of the theroies on his website have proven too be true with the medical study links shown on his website but his products do not do as Lin states and only seems too work with people with very minor symptoms.

For example I caught Dr lin out in our email exchanges.

I first asked if his products will work for everybody who has POIS or sexual exhaustion?

He replied Yes.

I then asked him " What of his products could lower SHBG levels and lower
Cortisol " ?

He replied "all of them for Shbg and Detoxia and 5htp too lower Cortisol".

I then replied with " My Shbg levels tested the last 2 years have been
18 - 12 - 52 and then 16 15 - 48 recently. Taking anything that lowers Shbg levels like fish oil, Nettle root etc makes me very fatigued and need too sleep a few hours after taking it. I then asked him if he would still recommend his products too me even though my Shbg levels are low.

He replied with " Your liver has been severely damaged and nothing can help you".

Hes half right my liver is damaged but ofc there are many things that can help a damaged liver like :

Milk thistle extracts
Choline(Really helpful for fatty liver)
Red yeest rice
samE
Hawthorn Berry
Celery
Vitamin B6+12
Lecithin
Tmg

Improved diet, more raw vegetables, lots of water, more fibre too improve digestion which then lessens the load on the liver, no fatty fried food etc

Lin obviously didnt want too spend any more time as he knew he would not be making any profit from myself.

[girlwind]

I got a response from Bryan Timmins at the BioHealth Diagnostics Lab. He's been asking around "and there appears to be very
little knowledge on POIS among functional medicine docs." He asked "Have you read the work of Reich and orgone? Something
tells me there may be a clue in there. I am not sure how to look  at the syndrome from the perspective of hormone pathways,
deficiencies, imbalance, and such. Does it happen after every orgasm?"

I have filled him in on as much as I could and sent him a link to this forum. He seems like a nice person, but so far no luck in
coming up with any help for us.  [] []

[demografx]

I got a response from Bryan Timmins at the BioHealth Diagnostics Lab. He's been asking around "and there appears to be very
little knowledge on POIS among functional medicine docs." He asked "Have you read the work of Reich and orgone? Something
tells me there may be a clue in there. I am not sure how to look  at the syndrome from the perspective of hormone pathways,
deficiencies, imbalance, and such. Does it happen after every orgasm?"

I have filled him in on as much as I could and sent him a link to this forum. He seems like a nice person, but so far no luck in
coming up with any help for us.  [] []

All we can do is try. It might be very difficult for a small, for-profit co., which is my impression here. University and hospital affiliations may have more time and resources to work with us. Many thanks for contacting them.

[girlwind]

thanks demografx for being such a good moderator. I feel like you help to keep us all feeling included and appreciated.

[Michael8028]

Cases of POIS have been reported as early as 1880's :

http://www.amazon.com/Neurasthenia-Hygiene-Symptoms-Treatment-Medicine/dp/0405039336/ref=sr_1_1/103-6287509-7580637?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1178063329&sr=8-1

This IS Sexual Exhaustion. In fact, this Western neurologist was using the term sexual exhaustion in 1880's I'll type in some of the text.

"That the symptoms of sexual excess can occur in the married as well as the unmarried is illustrated by the following case, which I saw with Dr. M. Joseph Roberts:
Case I.
The patient was an engineer on a railway, and had been married for 10 years. Two years after marraige he began to have involuntary emissions, which followed to excess. He had indulged in coitus on the average of five times weekly for two years. When he was first brought to me the emissions were occurring two and three times weekly; there was also a diminishing pleasure of normal intercourse. He was troubles likewise with stomach vertigo and nausea, muscae volitantes, and asthenopia. Sometimes the involuntary emissions would occur right after coition. There was a roaring sound in the ears, a feeling as if a band were around the head, and a sensation of coldness at the vertex- the cranial center, as I term it. There was constipation and much backache and spasm of the right eyelid

Case V
A young man, 22 years of age, had pain in the head, wandering pains in various parts of the body; ringing in the ears without any deafness or signs of objective trouble in the ears. He was troubled sometimes with emissions. He was very strong, muscular, and capable of working, and did work on the farm. He was troubled with vertigo, very much troubled with palpitation of the heart as well as fear of society, which he found impossible to overcome. He was also troubled with fits of depression, especially on getting up in the morning; as he expressed it, "I have a kind of fear of something which I cannot express" (pantaphobia). There was a lack of mental control an a deficiency of memory. With all this, there is was good appetite, regular bowels, and usually good sleep. The fact of interest in this case was the co-existence of palpitation of the heart and other nervous phenomena, with great muscular strength and great power for hard work. This patient entirely recovered, under treatment, in a short time. Examination of urine fuond excess of oxalates, which is a frequent fact in this form of neurasthia.

Case VII

A young man,29 years of age, told me that at the age of thirteen he began the habit of masturbation, and kept it up for five years. He says he learned the habit himself, which is a peculiar statement, inasmuch as almost all say they were taught the habit by schoolmates or servant girls. He confessed that he indulged for several times a day for six years. At the age of nineteen involuntary emissions began. At the age of twenty-two he began to be very nervous.
His symptoms were cardiac irritability, the heart beating on going up-stairs, or walking rapidly; getting out of breath even in conversation; dimness of vision; at times coming and going in a capricious way; mental depression; defective memory; fear of lightning; drowsiness; feeling of wetness and coldness of genital organs, as though water were passing out; pain in the lumbar region; weakness of the knees. In attempting to urinate, oftentimes only a very little urine would come at a time. After coitus he would have prickling and burning at the bottoms of the feet………..The parts were examined and found to be laxed; the scrotum was relaxed, and the testicles were small and soft.

Case X

A man ages 33…….at one time had frequent emissions. He had been mentally depressed, his eye were very sensitive. He had trouble with dribbling urine after the act of urinating was complete, and the penis, on examination, was found to be cold, and sometimes very much shrunken – what I call the shrunken penis…..

AND CHECK THIS ONE OUT!

Case XXIII

The following case shows also how sexual debility may exist in persons of great muscular strength. A gentleman thirty-seven years of age, an athlete, powerful, and distinguished in the gymnasium, large frame, though not very tall, consulted me two or three years ago for symptoms of sexual debility, which he feared might prevent his marriage. ……Yada Yada

THERE ARE SEVERAL CASES WHERE HE MENTIONS HOW STRONG THE PATIENT WAS.

Case XXIV

A young man, 33 years of age, began the habit of self abuse at the age of 17. after 3 years, he stopped; then cam involuntary emission. When he consulted me in the fall of 1878, …… He had a good pulse and an unusually strong stomach, firm muscles, and capacity for severe and protracted muscular toil in his trade.

[demografx]

Michael, very interesting! I wonder if the symptoms lasted for DAYS. My opinion is that *days vs. hours/one day* is what separates sexual exhaustion from POIS.

I'm so tired I also feel my symptoms started in the 1880's []

On a more serious note, I wonder if POIS has a _cumulative_ adverse effect on us over the years? In my non-POIS times, I often feel tired and drained and wonder if that's from 30+ years of suffering through days' worth of POIS exhaustion, POIS brain fog, etc.? Also, my overall non-POIS-times ability to concentrate is not great.

Any other thoughts on longterm debilitating POIS effects?

[demografx]

thanks demografx for being such a good moderator. I feel like you help to keep us all feeling included and appreciated.

Awww  <blush>   thank you!  []  

[demografx]

GIRLWIND

You might consider asking Mr Timmins what would the fee be for him to review all our posts and give us a preliminary report? Several people (including you and me, I think) have indicated a willingness to consider outside costs.