[girlwind]

At the moment, i'm looking for another cause of possible adrenal dysfunction and I will have the results in 1 or 2 months.

B_Jim, that sounds very interesting. I look forward to your findings!

A new insight on the THYROID--ADRENAL Connection
I got my hormone tests back last week and found out that (among other things) I am hypothyroid. This is exactly
what I suspected, as many of the symptoms I present fit the hypothyroid profile. Several weeks ago I'd discovered
that I am iodine deficient, and since iodine is a key nutrient for maintaining healthy thyroid functioning, I had been
searching to find "clean" (non-toxic and organic) sources of iodine rich seaweed. After trying out a few seaweed
supplements, that had NOT been tested for toxicity (thanks to Martin88 for pointing this out), I FINALLY found a
a powdered kelp that is farmed in Iceland, and which is certified organic. I have been taking the seaweed (both
the former ones and the new one) for a few weeks now, and I DEFINITELY notice a difference in both my CFS
and POIS symptoms. My energy is better, less brain fog and quicker recuperation from orgasm. And I
haven't even begun to "officially treat the thyroid" itself--this is just from increasing iodine in my diet! HELLO!

For so many years I have been focused on repairing exhausted ADRENALS, and not paid much attention to the
thyroid.  Most of the time in the past, my saliva tests for cortisol have been clearly out of range. Though fortunately,
this last time, they showed that I have made definitive headway on adrenal restoration, so I know all those years of
adrenal boosting supplemets have actually worked. 

Since my past blood work for  thyroid almost always showed me in the very "low normal" range on thyroid tests, I
never pursued  the thyroid issue. However, from what I have recently read, there are  quite a number of doctors who
disagree with the "normal" reference ranges of thyroid tests, especially the TSH. What is dawning on me now is that I
could have had a subclinical thyroid problem for MANY YEARS, which went undiagnosed because of this.

There is SO MUCH info I've gathered in the past weeks that it's too much to go into here in one posting. All I can say
is that this has been a blazing revelation of an experience for me, and I am still taking it in. I'm going to see an actual
MD in mid-October, who is known for her excellent work on hormone balancing, and leans toward natural remedies,
diet and supplements in her practice. We'll see what happens next. In the mean time, for anyone who is interested, I
have posted just some of the articles I have read.

Because iodine is HUGELY involved in metabolism, as well as thyroid health, hormonal health, brain health,
digestive health, immune health and reproductive organ health, I think it's worth it to know more about it.

http://holtorfmed.reachlocal.net/article_info.php?articles_id=2
http://thyroid.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ&sdn=thyroid&cdn=health&tm=13&f=22&su=p284.9.336.ip_p726.4.336.ip_&tt=2&bt=1&bts=1&zu=http%3A//www.thyroid-info.com/articles/mercola.htm
http://www.mercola.com/article/hypothyroid/diagnosis_comp.htm
http://www.thyroid-info.com/articles/brownstein-hormones.htm
http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/
http://www.dcnutrition.com/Minerals/Detail.CFM?RecordNumber=73
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2004/08/11/thyroid-health.aspx
http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=nutrient&dbid=69#deficiencysymptoms
http://www.iodine4health.com/index.htm

[Counterpoints]

Counterpoints, great going with your San Francisco MD! Do you think he would be amenable to telephone or email consultations if someone is too far to visit?

I assume he would charge a fee in either case? Maybe those with insurance plans will be covered to some extent.

It would be nice if there were a medical code # for POIS, so that insurance companies don't raise their eyebrows.

Demografx,

Good questions.  Naturally he would charge a fee for personal visits.  I'm not sure about telephone conversations, but I doubt he would be open to this.  He's extremely busy, and couldn't afford to have many POIS sufferers calling him and expecting equal shares of his time. I will ask him what he would consider doing in this regard, though.

It's probably best if we stream-lined our contact with him through a spokesperson.  This way we could represent all of us.  For example, we could all co-sign a letter detailing our individual concerns and questions, and our theories on the causes, and correspond with him this way. (e.g. he responds, we work on another letter, he responds, we collaborate on another letter, etc.).

He *is* interested in doing a serious research investigation into this problem, and that would help all of us.  He has begun writing some questions for us.  We would not be charged for this, though we may be able to help him get a grant to fund this study.  He will likely be able to focus on this starting in a month or two.

(To all those who have sent me messages, I will respond.  Please give me some time.  Thanks).

[demografx]

girlwind, good news on the thyroid-adrenal front. And I'm glad you're feeling better with the treatment! More pieces of the puzzle come together.

[girlwind]

girlwind, good news on the thyroid-adrenal front. And I'm glad you're feeling better with the treatment! More pieces of the puzzle come together.

For now it's really been about taking care of the IODINE DEFICIENCY. It is making a HUGE difference in my overall
health to get more iodine in my diet.  I'm sure this is something my thyroid is appreciating, but all my other hormonal
activities are better too. FYI: I had an orgasm last night and my POIS are 80-90 percent better.

 http://www.iodine4health.com/body/body.htm

[Guthrie]

A new insight on the THYROID--ADRENAL Connection
I got my hormone tests back last week and found out that (among other things) I am hypothyroid. This is exactly
what I suspected, as many of the symptoms I present fit the hypothyroid profile. Several weeks ago I'd discovered
that I am iodine deficient, and since iodine is a key nutrient for maintaining healthy thyroid functioning, I had been
searching to find "clean" (non-toxic and organic) sources of iodine rich seaweed. After trying out a few seaweed
supplements, that had NOT been tested for toxicity (thanks to Martin88 for pointing this out), I FINALLY found a
a powdered kelp that is farmed in Iceland, and which is certified organic. I have been taking the seaweed (both
the former ones and the new one) for a few weeks now, and I DEFINITELY notice a difference in both my CFS
and POIS symptoms. My energy is better, less brain fog and quicker recuperation from orgasm. And I
haven't even begun to "officially treat the thyroid" itself--this is just from increasing iodine in my diet! HELLO!

Girlwind, could you tell us the brands of the kelp/seaweed products that you've been taking?

[girlwind]

Girlwind, could you tell us the brands of the kelp/seaweed products that you've been taking?

Sure. I found a company in Oregon, called Mountain Rose Herbs, that has kelp from Iceland.
It's the only place I found that actually tests their seaweed, and gives it a certified organic label.
As you will see, some of their seaweeds are wild harvested, but the one I bought was the organic.

Prior to that I took a product called Modifilan--which is a very strong laminaria japonica extract.
It was either just TOO concentrated, or it was chelating heavy metals out of me, or it was toxic.
I tried it a while and noticed energy improvement, but couldn't handle the detox (or just plain toxic)
symptoms. I would no longer recommend it. But some people I know HAVE benefitted from it.
I'm sending you both links to check out for yourself.

http://www.mountainroseherbs.com/seaweed/seaweed.html
http://www.modifilan.com/

[tarkington]

This was on the Kelp from Iceland information webpage.  Do you have any recommendations on how often to take the powder?

Precautions
Don't use on a daily basis for more than 2 weeks at a time, taking a 2 week break before using again. This will prevent you from overdosing iodine with potential imbalance in thyroid function. For periodic use only and not to be taken for extended periods of time. Not to be used while pregnant.

[demografx]

I had an orgasm last night and my POIS are 80-90 percent better.

Great news, girlwind!

And...sorry if I missed it: how did you test for your iodine deficiency? Do you think iodine could make a difference in POIS for men vs women?

[demografx]

This was on the Kelp from Iceland information webpage.  Do you have any recommendations on how often to take the powder?

Precautions
Don't use [iodine product above] on a daily basis for more than 2 weeks at a time, taking a 2 week break before using again. This will prevent you from overdosing iodine with potential imbalance in thyroid function. For periodic use only and not to be taken for extended periods of time. Not to be used while pregnant.

Thank you, Tarkington!

[girlwind]

This was on the Kelp from Iceland information webpage.  Do you have any recommendations on how often to take the powder?

Precautions
Don't use on a daily basis for more than 2 weeks at a time, taking a 2 week break before using again. This will prevent you from overdosing iodine with potential imbalance in thyroid function. For periodic use only and not to be taken for extended periods of time. Not to be used while pregnant.

I'm only taking a 1/2 teaspoon per day (in a vegie smoothie) and am not too concerned about overdosing.
Since I'm already very deficient in iodine, and hypothyroid on top of that, I'm just going to see how I feel
as I go. If I feel symptomatic (as in overly amped up), I will stop it for a while and then continue later, as
they suggest. Since this iodine is in a food source, not an extract or concentrate, it feels like a pretty safe
way to get my iodine level up.

As I have read in my research on this topic, there are a lot of arguments about how much is too much (or
too little) iodine. David Browstein (an MD who has worked with several thousand patients who have had some
form of iodine deficiency and is one of the experts on the subject)) claims that the recommended daily
requirements are much too low. He points out that in Japan, where they ingest ten times the amount iodine
that we do in the US (from seafood and seaweed), there is very little hypothyroidism and very little breast
cancer (a connection that is worth any woman considering).

I can't recommend how you should take the iodine, because everyone is different, but I did want to pass this
information along because it has already been so dramatically helpful for me.

[girlwind]

And...sorry if I missed it: how did you test for your iodine deficiency? Do you think iodine could make a difference in POIS for men vs women?

I found the test for iodine deficiency in an interview Mary Shomon (author of a well-known thyroid
self help book) did with with Dr. Joseph Mercola. From what I've read so far, iodine deficiency affects both
sexes, but women seem to have more issues with the thyroid--15% of women according to some stats are
thyroid impaired.

"...for specific recommendations for hypothyroidism, I feel the best supplement that one could possibly take for
proactive thyroid health on a regular basis would be some form of organic iodine. A simple way to determine if
one requires this is to paint a patch of tincture of iodine on your skin the size of a half dollar. The iodine brown
coloration should last at least 24 hours. The faster it is absorbed the greater the body's iodine deficiency.

The best source of organically bound iodine that I know of is non-commercially harvested seaweeds. The dose
is about 5 grams a day or about one ounce per week. So a pound would last about two months. Radioactive
iodine is another factor that can damage the thyroid so one needs to flood the gland with healthy iodine from
organic sources like seaweed. As you know this is particularly important for pregnant women as if they have
untreated hypothyroidism, a New England Journal of Medicine study showed that their children may have
lower IQ scores.

The better seaweeds are hand picked and dried and not typically available in health food stores. They are the
absolute best forms of minerals that I am aware of. Unfortunately the people who produce this usually run
small operations, and do not make their products widely known. Kelp from the health food store may work,
but it really depends on how it was harvested and there is no way to know that reliably, so I rely on seaweed
harvesters who hand pick the seaweed and reliably dry them free from contaminants."

[girlwind]

Can you give your TSH value ? Mine is 2.95 (between limits : 0.250 to 5.000) but a friend thinks it's too high.

My TSH was .8 which is in ZRT Laboratories reference range (.5-3.0). It's my T3 that was clearly out of range at 2.0.
(Their reference range is 2.5-6.5). According to Mercola, and others of like mind, your TSH of 2.95 could be too high.

Here is what Mercola says about the thyroid testing in his interview with Mary Shomon:

Q. You have said that you feel that it's a "big myth" that that an elevated TSH (thyroid stimulating hormone) level is always
required before a diagnosis of hypothyroidism can be made. First, can you explain why you feel this is a big myth? And second,
why do you feel that conventional medicine seems to cling pretty firmly to this myth as the sole means of diagnosing hypo-
thyroidism?

A: I would say over 90% of the patients that I diagnose with underactive thyroids have a completely normal TSH level.
Even with this relatively insensitive test, a study published earlier this year concluded that 13 million Americans have
undiagnosed thyroid disease. I suspect it may be as high as five times that number. From my perspective, most
traditionally based physicians have long abandoned their physical examination and diagnosis skills and appear unwilling to
believe that patients who complain of all the classic hypothyroid symptoms are in fact truly hypothyroid if their TSH is normal.

They would rather believe a lab test than the patient sitting in front of them. I suspect this may be related to the trust
physicians place in the researchers who developed the original assay. I suspect that the same issues are involved in nearly all
traditional physician's incredible reluctance to use natural thyroid hormones for replacement and their insistence on using
synthetic hormones. This is remarkable in light of the New England Journal of Medicine article last year that quite clearly
showed that natural hormones are far superior, especially with respect to brain function and mood.

Q. You have said that if a TSH is above 1.5 there is a strong chance the thyroid gland is not working properly. Can you
explain why you feel that is the case?

A: I have carefully analyzed hundred's of patient's symptoms and had many of them take their basal body temperatures. There
appears to be a strong correlation between this threshold value of a TSH above 1.5 and the diagnosis of hypothyroidism. Most
patients who have TSH levels above 1.5 seem to respond quite well to natural therapies that either improve or replace thyroid
function.

Q. Why do you feel that Free T3 and Free T4 levels are the only accurate measures of the actual active thyroid hormone
levels in the blood? Why do you feel these are more accurate than the TSH level, which is considered the standard by
the majority of conventional physicians?

A. The Free T3 and Free T4 levels represent the active hormones circulating in the blood. The typical thyroid tests:
Total T4, T3 Uptake (and Free Thyroxine Index (FTI) are virtually worthless and should have been abandoned
years ago.I believe that the Free T3 and Free T4 are not superior to TSH, but should be used in conjunction
with TSH. My contention is that the reference range for TSH is inaccurate. TSH is quite a good screen and will
in fact assess most cases of hypothyroidism if the new ranges are utilized. The value of Free T3 and Free T4 comes into
play when one needs to diagnose secondary and tertiary hypothyroidism. These are cases of hypothyroidism due to
pituitary or hypothalamic dysfunction. These are far less common than primary hypothyroidism, but nevertheless they do
constitute a significant percentage of individuals.

Kent Holtorf (an MD endocrinologist based in LA)  goes into even greater detail about inadequacies of thyroid testing.    http://holtorfmed.reachlocal.net/article_info.php?articles_id=2

[pyropeach]

Can you give your TSH value ? Mine is 2.95 (between limits : 0.250 to 5.000) but a friend thinks it's too high.

My TSH was .8 which is in ZRT Laboratories reference range (.5-3.0). It's my T3 that was clearly out of range at 2.0.
(Their reference range is 2.5-6.5). According to Mercola, and others of like mind, your TSH of 2.95 could be too high.

What are the units? (I'd like to compare these numbers to my own, but need to know if the units are the same).

My TSH was 1.110 uIU/mL (range: 0.465-4.680 uIU/mL)  and Free T4 was 1.07 ng/dL (range:0.78-2.19 ng/dL)

[demografx]

Once again, i'm on Day3 today and my diet works. I feel tired only 24h or more after and not 3 or 4 days with huge improvement of symptoms (suppression of flulike state).

Congratulations, B_Jim!

[girlwind]

Can you give your TSH value ? Mine is 2.95 (between limits : 0.250 to 5.000) but a friend thinks it's too high.

My TSH was .8 which is in ZRT Laboratories reference range (.5-3.0). It's my T3 that was clearly out of range at 2.0.
(Their reference range is 2.5-6.5). According to Mercola, and others of like mind, your TSH of 2.95 could be too high.

What are the units? (I'd like to compare these numbers to my own, but need to know if the units are the same).

My TSH was 1.110 uIU/mL (range: 0.465-4.680 uIU/mL)  and Free T4 was 1.07 ng/dL (range:0.78-2.19 ng/dL)

The units in the ref. range are: 0.5-3.0 uU/ml for TSH,  2.5-6.5 pg/ml for Free T3 and 0.7-2.5 ng/dL for Free T4.
This is for ZRT Labs. Other labs may or may not have the same ref. ranges.

[girlwind]

For my lab i read : 2.95 mUI/l   limits : 0.250 to 5.000. I don't have T3 and T4 values :/
Thanks Girlwind for interview. My friend said too that i need T3 and T4, TSH alone is not enough.

Make sure it's the FREE T3 and FREE T4--which are the active hormones circulating in the blood.

[girlwind]

I will test new forms of magnesium too because i think magnesium is the first natural beta-blockers. Imre1 results with beta-blockers is very intersting.

Yes, I use magnesium in this way. I went to a doctor a few years ago for PVC's, and she recommended beta blockers.
I didn't want to take those, so she said the second best thing was magnesium. I use both a magnesium citrate powder
that you mix with hot water, and transdermal magnesium. In addition I take Hawthorne Berry which is known to be
helpful for heart arrythmias.

[demografx]

B_Jim and girlwind, forgive me but I'm getting a little lost in some of the depth of discussion.

Can you both summarize - in simple form - what you now take for POIS alone? (e.g., iodine, protein [how do we get protein? health food supplement?] )

Many thanks. I and perhaps others here would really appreciate this simplification! And I'm not disparaging the detail, I just get derailed easily in the discussion.

[imre1]

Interesting thoughts, B_Jim.

I have been trying Bisoprolol 5 mg/day for slightly over a month now.  I am noticing definite improvement.  Recovery time has gone from 12-40 hrs to
4-5 hrs.  This happened gradually -- I needed to take the medication for at least three weeks to notice much difference. (Assuming the difference has anything to do with Bisoprolol! This could be coincidental).

Also note, I tried Zoloft, starting at the beginning of August, and ending mid September.  It slightly decreased sexual urges, which was helpful, but I do not sense it had a profound effect on POIS. 

You mean, you don't get the total absence of any libido then? My sex-drive has been COMPLETELY ereducated. Even to a point of no longer being able to make the difference between hetero or homo.

The reason of the last statement being that the level of sexual arousal has a definite influence on POIS symptoms.

Anyway, i have the same reduction in time all symtoms are active.

The pain has definetely gone away with bisoprolol. But i seem now to be getting an increase of what i call "fever attacks". Intense heat feelings with extensive sweating. This i can live with, since it usualy lasts only a few minutes and only 1 or 2 times. I just have to make sure that i can sit down. And nobody else is bothering me in the mean time.

One more thing to notice here is that some woman drove my car total loss some two months ago. So I haven't been to the gym for two months now. Probably the sweating will reduce again after i get my new car and go to the gym again.

[imre1]

I have high blood pressure myself.

Could there be a link between high blood pressure and POIS?

At times over the last few years my blood pressure has been very good.

I think that blood pressure rises because of POIS symptoms. POIS induces symptoms and these make blood pressure rise?