[demografx]

I am wondering about the relation between fenugreek and cortisol.

Guthrie, while waiting for the fenugreek-cortisol-posters reply, the PDR info below on fenugreek has references at the bottom that might help.
http://www.pdrhealth.com/drugs/altmed/altmed-mono.aspx?contentFileName=ame0071.xml&contentName=Fenugreek&contentId=234

The following shows fenugreek and cortisol in forum posts:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=fenugreek+cortisol+site%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fthenakedscientists.com

[Limejuice]

Haha, I've noticed this Fenugreek side-effect:

- Maple syrup smell in your sweat or urine

Personally I think it's benefit to using it   Oral deorderant anyone?

[SteveD]

Hey guys,


Just kind of reviewing and making a couple of goals (read-New Years Resolutions!)
.
1) First off, and far and away the most important thing, I want to eradicate the effects of the POIS illness in my life....forever, one day at a time
2) I want this to be a great year in my life and the happiest lives I've seen are spiritual, not religious, so I want to develop more of the prayer and service part of my life.
3) If I can successfully stabilize the POIS, I want to develop my 'normal life'  (career, education, finances, having fun!)

Tha, tha, that's all folks!

[CertainlyPOIS]

I did not expect such a quick respond
what should i respond other than gratitude

CCconfucious,
That is great!  Did you send Dr. Whipple a link to our forum?  Also, her email seems to indicate that her colleague's patient is another female with POIS, which is interesting.

yeah i gave her link to both youtube and the forum.  I hope the sexologist she is talking about has good information for us.

[CertainlyPOIS]

i dont know if you guys notices this or not but in dr waldingers paper he mentioned oxytocin can impair cognitive skills when it is over produce and also it is one of the hormones produced after orgasm.

[Guthrie]

i dont know if you guys notices this or not but in dr waldingers paper he mentioned oxytocin can impair cognitive skills when it is over produce and also it is one of the hormones produced after orgasm.

CCconfucius, could you copy and paste the section about oxytocin and cognitive impairment, for those of us who don't have immediate access to the article?

[martin88]

My diet hasn't seemed to affect my ability to stay chaste. But I eat rather healthy so if Gandhi was right then perhaps that makes chastity easier. It kind of makes sense to me in a psychological sense: lust could be a shapeshifter, morphing from food to sex. Perhaps there is also a biological reason why refusing excessive delicacies from the supermarket might reduce lust.

John, in my case food affects my ability to stay chaste and I definitely feel it's not psychological. However I can say this is a lot less true with the age. Shellfish food is the most able to cause me this. By the way I think it's prohibed by the bible to eat shellfish, I don't know why, but it's ok for fish thus probably providing just enough iodine.

Underwater, you may look to the form for our recovery experiences. Insomnia doesn't fade after one day for me ...

Happy new year to all! Hopefully we'll be able in 2009 to break a part of the security code!

[SteveD]

My diet hasn't seemed to affect my ability to stay chaste. But I eat rather healthy so if Gandhi was right then perhaps that makes chastity easier. It kind of makes sense to me in a psychological sense: lust could be a shapeshifter, morphing from food to sex. Perhaps there is also a biological reason why refusing excessive delicacies from the supermarket might reduce lust.

John, in my case food affects my ability to stay chaste and I definitely feel it's not psychological. However I can say this is a lot less true with the age.

Martin,

Glad to hear that. That's my experience, too. I had two opportunities to  be sexual today and I chose chastity, which, for me, is no genital contact. I feel good about that. POIS slaughters me at an orgasmic level, but I get nicked earlier on in the process and I didn't today. If I stop it at a pre-genital  level, it does become psychological for me in that afterward I feel more high self esteem . When I'm orgasmic I don't even get to consider self esteem issues because, at that point, I'm so disconnected from myself physically/neurochemically.
 
On another note, I told my acupuncturist about POIS yesterday and about Relora, Feenugreek and Tumeric. He made me up a batch of mixed herbs to brew into a tea. Had a cup of it tonight and I feel pretty healthy actually. I was able to run three miles instead of two today, drank a 6 ounce and a 7 ounce glass of wheat grass...and , hey, I was able to do some work today! So POIS didn't catch me today, just for today...Yay

[SteveD]

Heres a government sponsored website that shows studies on prolactin and post-orgasmic.

Also check out the links on the right side

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=16095799&log$=activity

Limejuice,

From the 'quote on the right'..."This series of studies clearly demonstrated that plasma prolactin (PRL) concentrations are substantially increased for over 1h following orgasm (masturbation and coitus conditions) in both men and women, but unchanged following sexual arousal without orgasm"

This suggests to me the possibility of  an allergic reaction to prolactin in POIS sufferers...and the multi-day refractory period time would then make sense.

More importantly, that if it is true that POIS does incur incrementally, prior to orgasm, in increasing intensity, that, according to this study, there is definitively an additional culprit, as prolactin clearly plays no part in non-orgasmic sexuality

[girlwind]

I just had FIFTEEN TUBES of blood drawn a couple days ago, to test (among a long list of other things)
all the hormones known to human kind.   []  The hormone tests will be done at some special labs and the results
won't be back for several weeks. It will be interesting to see what new insights, if any, will come of this. Since it
cost me $2000 out of pocket, there better be SOMETHING worthwhile to be had from all the blood that was sucked
out of me. I am most curious about the cortisol and thyroid test levels, as I've been taking supplements regularly
for both. I feel (from a subjective/experiencial place) that they are better. Maybe the tests will agree with that.

[martin88]

Confucius, it's great for your email ! At least we are sure they were not shocked by our problems with orgasm, like other organisms could eventually be if they were not accustomed to letters about sex. Perhaps it would be a good thing not to initially mention about orgasmic problems when we'll send letters in the future.

I just had FIFTEEN TUBES of blood drawn a couple days ago, to test (among a long list of other things)
all the hormones known to human kind.   []  The hormone tests will be done at some special labs and the results
won't be back for several weeks. It will be interesting to see what new insights, if any, will come of this.

Thanks Girlwind to share this with us. I really hope something will come out. I know you're more concerned with CFS, but were these tests done in the middle of a pois episode ?

[underwater]

Girlwind--
Is your assumption that your Cortisol Levels need to come down?

[girlwind]

Thanks Girlwind to share this with us. I really hope something will come out of this. I know you're more concerned with CFS,
but were these tests done in the middle of a pois episode ?

The tests weren't done in POIS. My POIS symptoms have been generally better since I started boosting my thyroid,
so that's one of my big curiosities with the results. Since I know my symptoms are better, will my thyroid tests show that
to be quantatively true? There are other hormones that I want to check as well, and I am DEFINITELY covering ALL of them.

Girlwind-- Is your assumption that your Cortisol Levels need to come down?

My CORTISOL levels have been CHRONICALLY TOO LOW. They have come up a bit over time, and last time I checked
they were just under optimal. I'm also testing DHEA-S and testosterone, which also give a clue as to the functioning of the
adrenals, as does the cortisol.

[CertainlyPOIS]

first two paragraph result of hormone testing on two cases
third paragraph contains statement about oxytocin. 

Laboratory investigation was normal, apart from features of primary testicular
insufficiency; total testosterone 8 nmo1/1 (ref. 8.3–34 nmo1/1) , free
testosterone 30 pmo1/1 (ref.: 45–108 pmo1/1), dehydroxytestosterone 0.62
nmo1/1 (ref: 0.90–3.70 nmo1/1), LH 5.7 U/1 (ref: 1.5–12.0), FSH 25.8 U/1
(ref: 2.0–8.0), prolactine 210 mU/1 (ref: 75–275 mU/1).


Laboratory investigation was normal, apart from features of primary testicular
insufficiency; total testosterone 8 nmo1/1 (ref. 8.3–34 nmo1/1) , free
testosterone 30 pmo1/1 (ref.: 45–108 pmo1/1), dehydroxytestosterone 0.62
nmo1/1 (ref: 0.90–3.70 nmo1/1), LH 5.7 U/1 (ref: 1.5–12.0), FSH 25.8 U/1
(ref: 2.0–8.0), prolactine 210 mU/1 (ref: 75–275 mU/1).


Emphasizing the severity of clinical features, we propose to call this
cluster of symptoms post-orgasmic illness syndrome (POIS). POIS typically is
a postsexual disorder, suggesting that a factor associated with ejaculation or
orgasm serves as a trigger for the induction of a cascade of biological reactions.
A few studies in males and females have shown that during and after
orgasm prolactine and oxytocin concentrations are increased (Carmichael,
Warburton, Dixen, & Davidson, 1994; Exton et al., 2000). To our best knowledge,
there are no reports in the literature that suggest that these hormones
Postorgasmic Illness Syndrome 255
are related to flulike symptoms. However, oxytocine has been suggested to
negatively interfere with cognition (Geenen et al., 1988). We assume that a
still-undiscovered factor or mechanism associated with ejaculation or orgasm
triggers a cascade of immunological reactions that culminate in the
previously described flulike symptoms.

[Guthrie]

However, oxytocine has been suggested to
negatively interfere with cognition (Geenen et al., 1988).

Interesting!  I googled the article, and also came across another, more recent one, which also indicates that oxytocin can interfere with memory:

Selective amnesic effects of oxytocin on human memory.
Heinrichs M, Meinlschmidt G, Wippich W, Ehlert U, Hellhammer DH.
Physiol Behav. 2004 Oct 30;83(1):31-8.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15501488

[Limejuice]

Hi Steve!  Interesting theray.  I'll by it because I can't shoot it down - it makes good sense.  The only red flag is that women create lots of prolactin when breast feeding.  Hmm, are there any women here that have/do breast feed - do you get POIS when breast feeding?  I'd hate to just point at Girlwind but I think she's the only woman here.

Also Girlwind your tests are amazing.  From my understanding that the most comprehensive diversity of testing in thread history.  I can't wait to see results.

Between you and Demo my anixiety levels peaking - peaking in a good way.

[Limejuice]

Relora experiementing -

I've taken relora a couple days and will share my results (Demo style).

Day 0:
- Take 2 relora and hour prior to orgasm
- Release
- Take another relora an hour later - I feel extreme relaxation
- Two hours later I have a POUNDING headache.  I never get headaches. It was so intense that I began sweating profusely, ran to the shower and sprayed my head with cold water.  It was pretty aweful.  20 minutes later it finally went away.
- Four hours after release no POIS symptoms

Day 1
- No POIS symptoms...I mean absolutely none.  This is bazzar as heck.  That headache yesterday was redic.  What will tomorrow hold?

[girlwind]

Hi Steve!  Interesting theray.  I'll by it because I can't shoot it down - it makes good sense.  The only red flag is that women create lots of prolactin when breast feeding.  Hmm, are there any women here that have/do breast feed - do you get POIS when breast feeding?  I'd hate to just point at Girlwind but I think she's the only woman here.

Also Girlwind your tests are amazing.  From my understanding that the most comprehensive diversity of testing in thread history.  I can't wait to see results.

Between you and Demo my anixiety levels peaking - peaking in a good way.

Hi Limejuice--I don't have any children, hence no breast feeding in my history. None of the women I can think
of have POIS, but I will ask around to do those who've had children and see what their experiences were.

And definitely, this is ABSOLUTELY THE MOST COMPREHENSIVE SET OF BLOOD TESTS I've ever had. My vein
hurt for three days afterward! I really do hope there is SOMETHING to be gained from it.

[Guthrie]

FENUGREEK UPDATE

On Wednesday night, I took 6 Solgar fenugreek capsules 2.5 hours before release.  For the previous few releases, I had taken 3 capsules.  During the day on Thursday, I felt better than I did the previous few times.  The brain fog was still decreased, and in addition, there was even less mental, physical, and emotional sluggishness.  It still wasn't a 'complete cure', but it seems that the doubled-dosage had a positive effect.

Next time, I may try taking the capsules after release, rather than before, to try to determine whether the fenugreek has a corrective or merely preventative effect on my POIS symptoms.

[SteveD]

A few studies in males and females have shown that during and after
orgasm prolactine and oxytocin concentrations are increased (Carmichael,
Warburton, Dixen, & Davidson, 1994; Exton et al., 2000).

CCconfucious

This would explain why there are losses prior to orgasm, if the culprit is prolactin, although the findings appear to be in conflict with the previously mentioned study.