[Counterpoints]

FIRST TRIAL LEVITRA AND TESTOSTERONE PATCH COMBO

Since several hours ago......very few POIS symptoms! First time with the patches. I'm cautiously optimistic and on guard for the placebo effect.

As scientific research demands, I'm keeping my toes and fingers crossed! []

That's the post I was waiting for. So it's working! Hope too it's not a placebo.

Thanks a lot Demo and I don't know who else who wrote these forum guidelines (which are more rules I see!). I was not expecting to see this. I hope it will help to reduce further public exclusions (involuntarily or not). Also I think we may have lose some important information/help from the "annoying posters", but of course we'll nevertheless find the solution!  

I'm not saying anyone here is an "annoying" poster, or anything.  But keep in mind that a disruptive poster, even if he may have some useful information, is likely to
1) change the direction of productive discussions
2) prevent others from coming forward with helpful posts.

This has a net negative effect.  This is why moderation, and sometimes public warnings, are necessary.

But I understand what you're saying Martin.

[Counterpoints]

These symptoms and their severity have hardly changed during my life time. 
Will throw some pet theories at you in my next posting.

Look forward to hearing more.  It's very interesting that so many people have independently voiced the "word finding difficulty" symptom.

[Counterpoints]

When I was POIS and GAD free from 29-40 years of age, my exercise was high, stress controlled, sugar burned up completley, endorphins way up, sleep good etc. I lost control of my stress around 1990 as it got the better of me, and my panic/anxiety returned (like 1976) followed quickly by POIS. I feel that POIS was nearly undetectable in the early years, but as I reflect, I felt kind of "poor" many times.

So did you stop exercising around the time you first noticed POIS?

[rob58]

Theory

Given my lifetime experience with POIS I expected to be able to contribute some possible theories to this forum.  But in reading through all postings, each theory I have thought of has been mentioned at least once.  So all I can contribute is provide my own perspective to the theories that were brought up before.

I have a PhD in (mathematical) statistics so know a bit about science but have little knowledge about medicine or biology. So keep in mind where I am coming from.

Theory: Depletion and replacement problems.  Several have mentioned this on this forum and to me this seems the most likely candidate. From an evolutionary perspective it is important for men to replace sperm relatively quickly once it is lost. Most can do so but this requires the endocrine system to work hard and take "resources" away from other activities (like brain function and physical fitness). POIS sufferers may have more problems than others because their body is not as efficient in replacing sperm.  One example may be those with low testosterone production or tolerance.

My question to the forum is:  how would you rate your own "masculinity"?  I rate myself as normal but pretty low on that spectrum (low shoulder width to hips ratio; somewhat immature looking; low testosterone measurement; slight case of gynecomastia since youth).  My sperm count is normal and I have kids but the volume of semen per ejaculation is about 4 times average. (another factor making replacement more costly).

If we could meet in person as forum members we might notice some things that we have in common.  Obviously that is difficult so one thing we may try to do here is try to figure out what physical characteristics we may have in common.

Clearly this theory does not explain Girlwind's or other women's cases. By the way, I am convinced that a former girlfriend of mine has/had POIS.  When I pointed this out to her she denied it, though.

Rob.

[rob58]

Just filled out Counterpoints's survey.  Very good survey instrument in my opinion and I hope it will help some medical folks do a pilot study.

In doing the survey I noticed I haven't been complete in posting my symptoms.  Should have added: irritability, craving of sweets, and bad breath.  Also, given my reduced mental alertness, I do poorly in social situations during POIS, and, already not being naturally talkative, become even less talkative.

[demografx]

Last word on "forum decorum"

I just want everyone to know where I stand. I am thrilled with the wonderful dialogue from everyone here!

I am proud and astonished to see the phenomenal progress in the 2 years since I, John21, B_Jim and others started our lonely chats here about POIS back in 2007!

The "forum decorum" is a standard post which you may have noticed upon registering here. And since Martin88 and others have requested this, I thought it would be a good idea to reprint it periodically at our POIS thread.

Best wishes to everyone for a POIS-free life!

Now let's all keep posting those great experiences, theories, improvements, and cures! (yes, even garlic! [])

[demografx]

Just filled out Counterpoints's survey.  Very good survey instrument in my opinion and I hope it will help some medical folks do a pilot study.

In doing the survey I noticed I haven't been complete in posting my symptoms.  Should have added: irritability, craving of sweets, and bad breath.  Also, given my reduced mental alertness, I do poorly in social situations during POIS, and, already not being naturally talkative, become even less talkative.

Rob, this is great, thank you! It helps me, too, and I'm sure others, to crystallize some symptoms that we have not been able to articulate clearly - even to ourselves. In my case, it has helped sharpen my understanding of my own cognitive problems during POIS.

[demografx]

It's very interesting that so many people have independently voiced the "word finding difficulty" symptom.

Counterpoints: I problem no word have all at difficulty!

[underwater]

When I was POIS and GAD free from 29-40 years of age, my exercise was high, stress controlled, sugar burned up completley, endorphins way up, sleep good etc. I lost control of my stress around 1990 as it got the better of me, and my panic/anxiety returned (like 1976) followed quickly by POIS. I feel that POIS was nearly undetectable in the early years, but as I reflect, I felt kind of "poor" many times.

So did you stop exercising around the time you first noticed POIS?

When POIS was "fully noticed" and the connections to "O" were clear (about 89'/90'), I continued exercising. My stress was "sky high", and even if I wanted to stop exercising, I couldn't. I probably should have balanced exercise and rest more. I am trying now to balance them better. It's like a drug for me. Most of the research I have read indicates that for people with my issues (obviously neurochemical), I should have moderate exercise.
It's just like drugs and supplements; balance, dosage and time of day are critical. I can say this with near certainty for me, that the tipping point came when I lost the ability to control my emotional stress; just too many chemical stressors. I remember saying to myself, "take it easy" these post "O" symptoms are getting a little scary". Had I controlled my "behaviour/stress/responses" I would not now have POIS. It tipped my GAD flare ups into POIS. I remember it and I know it. I will not elaborate or describe. But my POIS is different than most here. It is anxiety driven!!!! I will significanly diminish it when I learn to control my mind better and understand the proper relationships between exercise and nutrition; nutrition used here as a general term since I am obvioulsy experimenting all the time with various combination of things.   

[girlwind]

Clearly this theory does not explain Girlwind's or other women's cases. By the way, I am convinced that a former girlfriend of mine has/had POIS.  When I pointed
this out to her she denied it, though.

I know two other women who have admitted having some milder version of POIS symptoms. They suspected it was  
due to hormonal changes from peri-menopause. I imagine there has to be more women with this issue, so why are
they not showing up on the forum? The few who have didn't stick around longer than a couple postings. I wonder
if denial of POIS in women is as common as faking orgasm...?  which is VERY common. Or is it somehow related to
the fact that a high percentage of women are non-orgasmic (somewhere between 30-50%)?  Whatever the case, I
would really like to hear from more women about their POIS experiences. I hope that more come forward.

[demografx]

I'm not saying anyone here is an "annoying" poster, or anything.  But keep in mind that a disruptive poster, even if he may have some useful information, is likely to

1) change the direction of productive discussions

2) prevent others from coming forward with helpful posts.

This has a net negative effect.  This is why moderation, and sometimes public warnings, are necessary.

Thanks, Counterpoints, that was, I think, very important to point out.

[martin88]

I definitely agree with moderation. I just have difficulty with making it public because one can feel rejected by the whole group. Maybe there are exceptions where it should be done publicly, I don't know.

Clearly this theory does not explain Girlwind's or other women's cases. By the way, I am convinced that a former girlfriend of mine has/had POIS.  When I pointed
this out to her she denied it, though.

I know two other women who have admitted having some milder version of POIS symptoms.

I think women can lose fluids without being aware of it:
http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/Female_ejaculation_-_Research/id/5044128
Female ejaculation - Research
In 2002, Emmanuele Jannini of L'Aquila University in Italy showed one explanation for this phenomenon as well as for the frequent denials of its existence. Skene's gland openings are usually the size of pinholes, and vary in size from one woman to another, to the point where they appear to be missing entirely in some women. If Skene's glands are the cause of female ejaculation, this may explain the observed absence of this phenomenon in many women. Retrograde ejaculation, where the fluid travels up the urethra towards the bladder (observed in 75% of test subjects) could also account for the observed absence


Rob, thanks for your theory, It's hard to say if it's caused by fluid loss or orgasm itself.
Maybe the two are causing problems (?)
About higher volume of ejaculation It's a possibility for me too but I never tried to scientifically measure this. I tought it could be caused by sexual abstinence.

[Counterpoints]

Does anyone here have a history of using cortisone creams? e.g. elocom, etc.  Anything with hydrocortisone in it?
Last week I did a 24 hr urine cortisol test, and the results were really alarming (high)... more than twice the upper reference.  I haven't used cortisone creams very much for a couple years now, but I used to use them regularly (daily)... before POIS started too.

Also, T3 measured high again (above upper reference).  Twice in a row now.  T4 and TSH both quite normal though.

[underwater]

If Dr. Waldinger is correct, and there is a type of inflammatory response to orgasm, where along the neurochemical chain might the cause be found? Or might the cause be connected to our muscles or blood? There certainly is a common recovery time frame that seems to indicate that the "irritants" ultimately give way to our antibodies, or that the "irritants" are cleaned out. If there is an autoallergic syndrome, we know that it clears up in a few days. How do we stop the "thing" from happening in the first place? When I used to have allergies, nasal spray worked for a while. POIS is a lot more complicated. I had severe allergies for over 45 years, and they just vanished. [Believe it or not, they vanished as my POIS got worse in the mid 90's]. I'd trade POIS for allegies anytime. Anybody here with allergies, arthritis, gout, tendonitis etc? I will get a very bad reaction to sugar and alcohol, but near deadly if combined; very sick for a few days. Are there any neurotransmitters or hormones in our own bodies that could turn on us? If there are, let's find them, trick them and render them harmless. A couple times last year during  POIS (before I joined in here), electrical stimulation of my lower back helped (during chiropractic treatment). But it was probably only the endorphins? Or maybe I confused some signaling molecules?
Now that I think about it, I always get a mild stuffed nose during POIS. Could that be an allergic response?

 

[rob58]

If Dr. Waldinger is correct, and there is a type of inflammatory response to orgasm

I always get a mild stuffed nose during POIS. Could that be an allergic response?

 

So many of the theories put forward seem plausible to me. I certainly have had serious allergy problems during my life.  To both indoor and outdoor allergents.  POIS makes me more susceptible.  I do get a stuffed nose, my asthma gets worse. Also my arthritis and tendonitis problems get worse.

Has anybody systematically taken their body temperature before and after orgasm?

[girlwind]

Does anyone here have a history of using cortisone creams? e.g. elocom, etc.  Anything with hydrocortisone in it?
Last week I did a 24 hr urine cortisol test, and the results were really alarming (high)... more than twice the upper reference.  I haven't used cortisone creams very much for a couple years now, but I used to use them regularly (daily)... before POIS started too.

Also, T3 measured high again (above upper reference).  Twice in a row now.  T4 and TSH both quite normal though.

It's really quite interesting to see that your diagnostic test results are the EXACT OPPOSITE of mine. I'm always on the low
end of normal with cortisol, especially the evening one. (I do the 4 saliva cortisol tests.) My T3 is too low, my T4 normal.

The only hydrocortisone cream I ever used was in 2003, when I had a hideous oozing bout of poison oak. I only used
it once, and it worked like a miracle. The itch stopped instantly and all the poison oak was gone in 3 days. I was appa-
rently VERY sensitive to it, maybe because I hadn't ever used it in my life before that time.

[underwater]

If Dr. Waldinger is correct, and there is a type of inflammatory response to orgasm

I always get a mild stuffed nose during POIS. Could that be an allergic response?

 

So many of the theories put forward seem plausible to me. I certainly have had serious allergy problems during my life.  To both indoor and outdoor allergents.  POIS makes me more susceptible.  I do get a stuffed nose, my asthma gets worse. Also my arthritis and tendonitis problems get worse.

Has anybody systematically taken their body temperature before and after orgasm?

Hi Rob--
I haven't taken my temp systematically after orgasm, but I can tell you that during  a POIS episode I usually feel colder than normal, especially in the morning. My normal body temperature is around 97---- Interesting; allergies, tendonitis, arthritis?? My arthritis and joint pain discomfort gets worse too. For us it appears that there is definitely an inflammatory component to POIS. But whether this is autoallergic or not is unclear. For me, one of my theories is that there is a hyperexcitatory condition that triggers an overwhelming cascade of catecholamines without the counterbalancing inhibitory neurotransmitters, leaving me for a few nights with residual nocturnal catecholamine excretion and insomnia. I get this also with an anxiety flare up. Although this isn't an autoallergic reaction, it comes close. Without a "shut off valve", it may create the same issues as an autoallergic response; thus arthritis, tendonitis flareups etc.

I also find the depletion theory you mention as quite plausible. Have you ever skipped a POIS episode after orgasm? Quite a few members here have reported (luckily) missing post orgasmic symptoms. Some of their percentages are quite high. For me, I can remember maybe skipping them twice. I find this fascinating, because it may indicate that there are times when the body is prepared to deal with the chemistry and not suffer a rebound reaction i.e. POIS.

[hurray]

Rob, thanks for your theory, It's hard to say if it's caused by fluid loss or orgasm itself.
Maybe the two are causing problems (?)
About higher volume of ejaculation It's a possibility for me too but I never tried to scientifically measure this. I tought it could be caused by sexual abstinence.

I certainly used to believe that the body's desperation to replenish lost fluids was key to POIS. I still have a lot of success with eating a large protein-heavy meal following orgasm.

However, when I wake up aroused in the morning (no fluids involved), it usually leads to a mild POIS episode (brain-fog for 1-2 days). So a mere erection can cause me problems.

Does this mean that POIS and fluid-loss are unconnected? I don't think it does, but I do think there is more than one factor that throw the brain into POIS - possibly several.

[demografx]

I always get a mild stuffed nose during POIS. Could that be an allergic response?
 

Yes, I used a tiny shot of Afrin (powerful but addictive stuff, careful!) this AM to clear it.

[demografx]

FIRST TRIAL LEVITRA AND TESTOSTERONE PATCH COMBO

Since several hours ago......very few POIS symptoms! First time with the patches. I'm cautiously optimistic and on guard for the placebo effect.

As scientific research demands, I'm keeping my toes and fingers crossed! []

The above was yesterday. It is now the end of a first full and GOOD day and it feels like last year's 75%+ cure!

This forum forces added awareness of POIS-variables for me. After 1+ years' declining Levitra effectiveness, I "gave up" hope and assumed Levitra no longer worked WELL, but now realize that the testosterone/Levitra combination may have been most significant. Perhaps neither work well alone (for me, that is).

Rob and others who weren't here: with early months' Levitra success, the possible POIS-effect of nitric oxide (NO) in Levitra stirred some discussion, if you are interested, please see link below:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=POIS+nitric+oxide+NO+site%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fthenakedscientists.com&btnG=Search

CAUTION: This is not medical advice, only my personal exerience. Only you and your physician can decide if this is right for you.