[rob58]

Have been traveling, so catching up now on lots of interesting posts.  Mostly wanted to react to John23's comments. My voice gets deeper too after O (for a day or two).  Also, the list of symptoms related to hypogonadism comes very close to my key symptoms, except that I definitely do not suffer from "small gonads".  All this points to a very puzzling dynamics in the link between testosterone and POIS. 

[demografx]

I often wondered whether Demografx and I were approaching the same solution from different directions. The articles below hint strongly that Viagra can have the effect of increasing oxytocin production during orgasm:

http://www.reuniting.info/science/viagra_and_oxytocin
http://www.news-medical.net/?id=29102

Now I know Viagra and Levitra aren't identical, but their effects are sufficiently alike that you have to wonder whether Levitra might not also aid in increasing oxytocin production?


I initially started taking Fenugreek to try to boost my oxytocin levels - could we both be achieving the same effect using different methods?

Yes, Hurray, I've been thinking that way for some time, even posted briefly about Levitra stimulating oxytocin. So I really appreciate hearing that from you as well.

Viagra might be the same. I'm just afraid to try it, because I tried Cialis and it was a disaster. But Cialis I think works differently to produce that very-long lasting effect (36 hours?).

But in my case, I think testosterone - in combination with Levitra - plays a critical part of my POIS cure. When testosterone was out of my system, Levitra worked very poorly alone. Sometimes, some drugs simply stop working, but my intuiition says it was the combination that was critical.

[demografx]

Have been traveling, so catching up now on lots of interesting posts.  Mostly wanted to react to John23's comments. My voice gets deeper too after O (for a day or two).  Also, the list of symptoms related to hypogonadism comes very close to my key symptoms, except that I definitely do not suffer from "small gonads".  All this points to a very puzzling dynamics in the link between testosterone and POIS. 

Rob, welcome back. I think hypogonadism refers to "little hormone production" not size. In fact, hypogonadism is the diagnosis that my endocrinologist writes down for the university lab that does my bloodwork.

[hurray]

Yes, hurray, I've been thinking that way for some time, even posted briefly about Levitra stimulating oxytocin. So I really appreciate hearing that from you as well.

Viagra might be the same. I'm just afraid to try it, because I tried Cialis and it was a disaster. But Cialis I think works differently to produce that very-long lasting effect (36 hours?).

But in my case, I think testosterone - in combination with Levitra - plays a critical part of my POIS cure. When testosterone was out of my system, Levitra worked very poorly alone. Sometimes, some drugs simply stop working, but my intuiition says it was the combination that was critical.

I think all 3 drugs are supposed to be PDE5 inhibitors, but only Cialis has the long-lasting effects - so it would seem likely that V+L were the most closely linked.

Your success with testosterone and Levitra sounds like a real breakthough! I wonder whether this approach would work with some of the other POIS sufferers on the board (strict medical supervision permitting)?

[demografx]

Yes, hurray, I've been thinking that way for some time, even posted briefly about Levitra stimulating oxytocin. So I really appreciate hearing that from you as well.

Viagra might be the same. I'm just afraid to try it, because I tried Cialis and it was a disaster. But Cialis I think works differently to produce that very-long lasting effect (36 hours?).

But in my case, I think testosterone - in combination with Levitra - plays a critical part of my POIS cure. When testosterone was out of my system, Levitra worked very poorly alone. Sometimes, some drugs simply stop working, but my intuiition says it was the combination that was critical.

I think all 3 drugs are supposed to be PDE5 inhibitors, but only Cialis has the long-lasting effects - so it would seem likely that V+L were the most closely linked.

Your success with testosterone and Levitra sounds like a real breakthough! I wonder whether this approach would work with some of the other POIS sufferers on the board (strict medical supervision permitting)?

Hurray, you said the key words: strict medical supervision. Yes, I believe some people could definitely benefit from the same treatment as mine for POIS. It was an absolute miracle for me, and I wish everyone could experience it. But I do have ED and I do have low testosterone, which both medicines are targeted for. It could be dangerous to try this combination without those symptoms and careful medical supervision.

The breakthrough for me was finding a top endocrinologist. And one from a University such as mine may be more research-oriented.

I do hope it is a breakthrough, Hurray! (For others besides me).

[Counterpoints]

Notice to follow

[hurray]

Getting the right medical expertise seems to be the key to nailing POIS - hope it continues to work for you Demo

Not exactly specific to MRI, Counterpoints, but the thing that I would most want to do with MRI (or extensive hormone level testing) would be to test as many variables as possible over time. Obviously, the more frequently the better, but this may be impractical.

Say you did a test a few hours after a POIS-inducing orgasm, then one day later at the same time, and so on for 7 days. Whatever readings change the most over time are likely to be central to the action of your POIS symptoms - you might be able to establish a set of conditions which would allow you to tell purely from the MRI data what stage of POIS you were in. Perhaps this would qualify as "proving" the existence of POIS, at least in your case.

Not sure if that was the kind of idea you were after Counterpoints ...

[hurray]

One other thing - when I am suffering from POIS, it physically feels as if my frontal lobe of my brain has almost closed down, and what conscious thoughts I am having are coming from the sides of my brain, which apparently are the temporal lobes.

Wikipedia says:

Damage to the frontal lobes can lead to a variety of results:

Mental flexibility and spontaneity are impaired, but IQ is not reduced.
Talking may increase or decrease dramatically.
Perceptions regarding risk taking and rule abiding are impaired.
Socialization can diminish or increase.
Orbital frontal lobe damage can result in peculiar sexual habits.
Dorsolateral frontal lobe damage reduces sexual interest.
Creativity is diminished as well as problem solving skills.
Distraction occurs more frequently

Some of these certainly ring true from my experience of POIS. If I had to guess which area of the brain was most affected by POIS, I would definitely pick the frontal lobes. Plus, the frontal lobes is where most of the dopamine lives, which is possibly one of the things you are interested in measuring.

[demografx]

Thanks again, Hurray.

Counterpoints: I hope you get access!! Here's what I think, and it could apply to primarily-cognitive POIS.

CP, I know you're not wild about my first theory here, but please keep an open mind. One of my current POIS theories is that slow sperm production rate after O contributes heavily to POIS (testosterone fixes this). The other part of my theory is that oxytocin becomes depleted after O. (Levitra fixes).

In addition to your contemplated tests, is there a way to scan-measure those two (sperm production rate and oxytocin) before or after, and during POIS?

Also, I think adrenal and pituitary activities are important for scanning both during and pre- or post-POIS.

I could go on and on, it's like a candy store for a kid! Serotonin, dopamine, neurological orgasmic responses, etc. but the above two are my priorities.

[demografx]

Getting the right medical expertise seems to be the key to nailing POIS - hope it continues to work for you Demo

Hurray, this forum is critical, too. It took me two years to figure out that a combination treatment was necessary. I think there are 3 components to POIS cures:

1) Since no medical professional really understands POIS fully, we ourselves have to work harder at understanding our bodies.

2) This forum's posts about sufferers who are similar to us are important in sifting through an overwhelming number of possibilities. And forum feedback on our own path is very helpful.

3) It seems that finding a sympathetic (and secure!) endocrinologist is key.

Any other thoughts from anyone?

[Limejuice]

CP, I wish there was some advice or theory I could give but mine are on par with everyone else's.  I think it's awesome that you potentially have this rare opportunity.

Regarding my Endo - she shut me down yesterday and said that she will no longer test for POIS.  I could feel this coming so no hard blow there.  Instead I have an appt this afternoon with another doctor.  Go go persistance.

[Limejuice]

OK, funny stuff here.  I just returned from the doctor (family practice).

Quck warning though - I've stopped taking the PS suppliment to prepare for any tests so I'm feeling and writing in a bit of a cloud.

So I bring the Netherland study and newpaper article, and give them to the doctor.  As he's reviewing the lititure I'm rambling off all the symptoms, durations, and my speculations of causes - I suggest a 24hr urine cortisol test.  When he's done reading, he stares at the ground for like a minute (complete siliance), then he looks at the ceiling same amount of time, then all he say is 'hmmm' - I kid you not.

After I feel a bit awkward and question why I'm there, he says 'well I've never heard of this, and you should see an endocrinologist, and if I give one test that will never end, and it might be phycological, and these doctors from the studies aren't from the US'.  So I interrupted him and began talking so much he couldn't get another word in...it was quite rude.  BUT it worked!  I got the paper work for the test!

Here's my next steps:
- wait 5 days for the PS suppliment to leave my system
- ejaculate
- wait 1 day till symptoms are peak
- take the 24hr urine cortisol test

Any suggestions or comments on these steps (or the doctor ?

[GoingCrazy]

One other thing - when I am suffering from POIS, it physically feels as if my frontal lobe of my brain has almost closed down, and what conscious thoughts I am having are coming from the sides of my brain, which apparently are the temporal lobes.

Wikipedia says:

Damage to the frontal lobes can lead to a variety of results:

Mental flexibility and spontaneity are impaired, but IQ is not reduced.
Talking may increase or decrease dramatically.
Perceptions regarding risk taking and rule abiding are impaired.
Socialization can diminish or increase.
Orbital frontal lobe damage can result in peculiar sexual habits.
Dorsolateral frontal lobe damage reduces sexual interest.
Creativity is diminished as well as problem solving skills.
Distraction occurs more frequently

Some of these certainly ring true from my experience of POIS. If I had to guess which area of the brain was most affected by POIS, I would definitely pick the frontal lobes. Plus, the frontal lobes is where most of the dopamine lives, which is possibly one of the things you are interested in measuring.

thats sounds a lot like me, I know I am smart, it's just that I can't perform that well.  I think when I get these headaches my frontal lobe is trying to come back from its current state.  This explains ADD

[demografx]

Regarding my Endo - she shut me down yesterday and said that she will no longer test for POIS.  I could feel this coming so no hard blow there.  Instead I have an appt this afternoon with another doctor.  Go go persistance.

Limejuice, you're an inspiration to all of us! Instead of being devastated, you moved rght on!

So I bring the Netherland study and newpaper article, and give them to the [new] doctor.  As he's reviewing the literature I'm rambling off all the symptoms, durations, and my speculations of causes - I suggest a 24hr urine cortisol test.  When he's done reading, he stares at the ground for like a minute (complete siliance), then he looks at the ceiling same amount of time, then all he say is 'hmmm' - I kid you not.

After I feel a bit awkward and question why I'm there, he says 'well I've never heard of this, and you should see an endocrinologist, and if I give one test that will never end, and it might be psychological, and these doctors from the studies aren't from the US'.  So I interrupted him and began talking so much he couldn't get another word in...it was quite rude.  BUT it worked!  I got the paper work for the test!

Bold and italicized/underlined emphasis mine - demo

Limejuice, I wish I could give you a Gold POIS Medal! Absolutely superb performance on your part! It confirms my hunch that a little aggression is necessary for all of us to get anywhere! Many docs are threatened by POIS because they have no clue how to handle this. So we must make them aware that we sufferers are willing to take the bull by the horns and be their medical partner! A leading one at that. Keep in mind that if you've been reading and/or participating in this forum, you know more than 99.99% of all docs about POIS!

Let's all do what Limejuice did, get angry and turn disappointment into results!

[demografx]

That [cognitive symptoms] sounds a lot like me, I know I am smart, it's just that I can't perform that well.  I think when I get these headaches my frontal lobe is trying to come back from its current state.  This explains ADD

Might explain my ADD too. Psychiatrically prescribed/monitored stimulants are working well for me to combat this. In addition to the Levitra and testosterone, those meds control my POIS - so far - VERY well.

[demografx]

SOCIAL ANXIETY

We've discussed this as another POIS symptom. Today I spent ALL DAY and part of the night socializing! New people, too. EXTREMELY unusual for me. I attribute that to my POIS (and ADD) treatment.

[demografx]

Here's my next steps:

- wait 5 days for the PS suppliment to leave my system
- ejaculate
- wait 1 day till symptoms are peak
- take the 24hr urine cortisol test

Any suggestions or comments on these steps (or the doctor ?

Brilliant.

The doctor? An expendable fool. With results, you can find another doc who doesn't need to be intimidated into getting off his ass.

[Counterpoints]

CCconfucius, at the lab I got my test, the range for free testosterone was 24-95 pmol/L.  You may want to consult this:
http://www.questdiagnostics.com/hcp/intguide/EndoMetab/Gen_Misc/Testosterone/Table%201.pdf
The range will depend on the type of test you took.  I suggest you phone the lab you took the test at.

Limejuice, good luck, and good work.  Make sure you do the 24 hr test properly, and store it in the fridge for most of the time (but also make sure it doesn't freeze.. e.g. that the fridge isn't too cold).  This is really important, because it can affect the results.  The lab will tell you what to do, and if not, ask for instructions.

All, thanks for the suggestions.

[demografx]

OXYTOCIN

We've discussed the possibility of oxytocin depletion playing a role in POIS. New nasal spray being tested might be a partial POIS treatment?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7412438.stm

[demografx]

I agree the tests should be made when you feel the worst... 

B_Jim, I took the tests out-of-POIS. Only because I was just so anxious to get results faster. In my case, maybe I got lucky and that worked out ok, because I found that testosterone and prolactin are problems...always.

But I agree that in-POIS testing is important.