[Ambient123]

Well, it seems i was hasty to completely dismiss the idea of SSRI's as a way of at least helping my POIS.

Underwater, you make an interesting point about the Valium, however im not sure what you mean by the fact that it's now toxic to you.

Neverstop, did you feel POIS-alleviating benefits with L-Tyrosine? If so, was there any symptoms in particular that were alleviated? And how long did you take Tyrosine before you noticed its effect?

[underwater]

Ambient---
For 3 months in 2007 and for 2 months in 2008 Valium worked miracles for me.
Unfortunately in both cases, it just stopped being effective (tolerance?). Now I can't even take a small dose, because it makes me very depressed. I never took more than 1 mg. a day. That is nearly a placebo! I was doing a lot of herbal supplements and amino acid experiments the last month. They all failed. Everthing made me depressed. The only natural thing over the last full year that has had a direct, immediate, positive impact on my overall health has been trigger point therapy.
As far as POIS is concerned, I just can't handle arousal/orgasm/ejaculation. For ten years I thought only about Testosterone. The last five about excitatory neurotransmitters. Now, Histamine (another, I suppose, excitatory neurotransmitter?)
At the moment, my only experimentation is on my trapezius and sternocleidomastoid muscles [trigger point] I'm trying to cure lightheadedness and depression. By the way, for MOST of my life POIS has been tolerable though troublesome. I thank my lucky stars that I'm older now etc. etc. My anxiety/panic condition is far worse than POIS. My current active phase has lasted 22 months, with flare ups coming and going on a continuous basis.

 

[neverstop]

Neverstop, did you feel POIS-alleviating benefits with L-Tyrosine? If so, was there any symptoms in particular that were alleviated? And how long did you take Tyrosine before you noticed its effect?

My short post was an attempt to encapsulate in a kind of "laddered" manner, the roads traveled which I felt were POIS related and each area provided it's own unique aspect in my achieving no POIS symptoms at last. (I was the typical 4 days of hell, especially cognitive) YES,,, L-Tyrosine alleviated the final "post-release" symptoms (plummeting mood, mental fog, no/low libido) taking 2x 500mg capsules upon awakening (empty stomach) and 2 more at 1PM starting the day of release. I experienced "normalcy" even as I expected the usual "off the cliff" symptoms and one interesting observation was the lack of libido drop with a sustained mental clarity with another "release test" within the 2 week period I continue to supplement with it. I do not want to give the impression that this one thing was a cure but rather after dealing with a step by step "what works" approach over years, this last piece was tried and there was a real and hopefully lasting benefit. At the least it is a great clue, as the working theory for me would be that those of us with POIS have one thing in common, we experience an over reaction by our bodies/brain after orgasm. I see this sort of like one with an allergy in that the body responds inappropriately to a usually harmless event or substance. The "refractory period" post orgasm is a mechanism whereby no further O's are possible and this is carried out in part by chemicals causing a drop in Dopamine levels. In us, I suspect the drop is long lasting and severe for whatever reason, perhaps in my case a chronic illness that continually depletes my body of the raw materials needed to maintain Dopamine levels. Without the steel, ya can't build a car and without nutrients in sufficient quantity your brain chemistry can't balance out normally.

[demografx]

Counterpoints, my endo was critiquing Michael's post about salivary testing mostly for testosterone, prolactin. Do you agree with that critique? Or do you think saliva tests could work for many hormones?

[demografx]

Neverstop, welcome to the forum! I've been experimenting with testosterone for 7 years and I'm a convert now (along with Levitra), so your comment about testosterone cream got my attention. Can you elaborate?

[Counterpoints]

Counterpoints, my endo was critiquing Michael's post about salivary testing mostly for testosterone, prolactin. Do you agree with that critique? Or do you think saliva tests could work for many hormones?

I'm not sure.  I was just repeating something an endocrinologist said about salviary cortisol tests.

[demografx]

Neverstop, here are some POIS forum resources which may be helpful to you:

Please see "B_Jim"'s POIS Forum Summary of All Cases, here as well as others on the Web:
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=6576.msg149009#msg149009

"Girlwind" has created an excellent POIS Video:

And filling out the POIS survey created by "Counterpoints" will enable you to share POIS information and details with others here. This will also enable us to work more easily with outside researchers by having more organized data available about us:
http://pois.olympe-network.com/

POIS Research Study

We have a copy of the first and only study on POIS by Dr. Marcel Waldinger,MD and Dr. David Schweitzer, MD.

If you want a copy (PDF), send "Pyropeach" a Private Message with your regular email address and he'll send you back the PDF.

To send a Private Message, click on "Messages" at the top of this page. At the Messages page, click on "New Message". From that point on, it works just like posting a message here, except that it only goes to the person(s) you designate.

Remember to put a quote around the recipient's name, e.g., "pyropeach".

New York Times article,

January 20, 2009
Mind
Sex and Depression: In the Brain, if Not the Mind
By RICHARD A. FRIEDMAN, M.D.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/20/health/views/20mind.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=friedman%20sexual%20January%2020&st=cse


In addition to serving our own informational interests, the above resources can be useful for you to show the medical world - who often shows little understanding of our plight and is sometimes skeptical of our condition - that POIS truly has scientific underpinnings and that POIS is not "just another psychological problem" related to sex - to be treated by the psychiatric/psychotherapy community.

[demografx]

Counterpoints, my endo was critiquing Michael's post about salivary testing mostly for testosterone, prolactin. Do you agree with that critique? Or do you think saliva tests could work for many hormones?

I'm not sure.  I was just repeating something an endocrinologist said about salviary cortisol tests.

Counterpoints, thanks to you, I insisted on at least an AM cortisol test with my endo, which I took 2 days ago. I have an appointment to discuss those results with him March 10, along with confirming testosterone, prolactin, DHEA-S, which were re-tested along with the new cortisol test. It'll be the first review of bloodwork since being on testosterone patches for 5 weeks now!

One side effect I'm seeing of the testosterone is that little female cats on the street run away when they see me coming. []

[Ambient123]

Neverstop, i have Tyrosine supplements (500mg) in my house. However, when i read the daily intake, it said only take one capsule per day. Did yours also say this?

Also, how quick were your symptoms alleviated?

Did you notice any side effects?

[Counterpoints]

Counterpoints, my endo was critiquing Michael's post about salivary testing mostly for testosterone, prolactin. Do you agree with that critique? Or do you think saliva tests could work for many hormones?

I'm not sure.  I was just repeating something an endocrinologist said about salviary cortisol tests.

Counterpoints, thanks to you, I insisted on at least an AM cortisol test with my endo, which I took 2 days ago.

I hope you get some useful information from this test.  Good luck.

[demografx]

I hope you get some useful information from this [cortisol] test.  Good luck.

OK, thanks. I'll post it here at the forum.

[martin88]

But hasn't the SSRI theory already been dismissed as being largely ineffective?

Not completely. B_Jim, Counterpoints, Martin, Underwater, John21, anyone else: do you agree?

Well, you were insisting that there was no effects on pois so I don't really know. Also since I never took ssri it's hard for me to tell. I believe that it can have an action to decrease sexual frequency thus helping to decrease pois episodes, I think Bola Bola has been helped in this way. It can help for premature ejaculation (perhaps less NE)(the most effective for this is paroxetine but it's also the one which has the most side effects, I know the weaning from it can be difficult). An indication of paroxetine is social phobia and ocd, which can be more present in pois.

Do you think testosterone alone, without Levitra, can cure pois ?

On two recent occasions, I took Levitra several hours afterwards. My guess is that testosterone accounts for 70% to 80% of the healing, for me.

Thanks Demo for your experiment to cut Levitra. 80% cure with testosterone only  is a very good result, but I agree it's very subjective. And you didn't test the day 2 peak of pois by taking Levitra hours afterwards. You're perhaps one of the first persons in the history who takes an ED drug not before sex ! I hope it was useful for something.

[demografx]

Thanks Demo for your experiment to cut Levitra. 80% cure with testosterone only  is a very good result, but I agree it's very subjective. And you didn't test the day 2 peak of pois by taking Levitra hours afterwards. You're perhaps one of the first persons in the history who takes an ED drug not before sex ! I hope it was useful for something.

Yes, it was backwards, Martin. But I felt it was necessary for MARTIN AND SCIENCE![]

Just to clarify, in my earlier post, I meant to say that testosterone-only was 70-80% of the effectiveness. so that would work out to be 70-80% of 80-90%, = about 60-70% healing effectiveness overall for testosterone-only.

I took into consideration the estimated day 2 peak, so it would still be about 60%+ overall for testosterone-only. Again, though, it's a quasi-scientific highly subjective guess (SWAG = scientific wild ass guess []).

I'm sure you understand my hesitance in doing 100% T-only.

[neverstop]

Neverstop, welcome to the forum! I've been experimenting with testosterone for 7 years and I'm a convert now (along with Levitra), so your comment about testosterone cream got my attention. Can you elaborate?

Thanks, before addressing the Testosterone, I'd like to mention that the FIRST thing I ever tried (not necessarily for POIS) which proved itself to have any long term benefit was when I first took 100mg a day of DHEA. This was 14 years ago, and what I noticed was that my POIS symptoms were lessened within 2 weeks of taking it. As this is "the mother of all hormones" it made some sense as it was possibly providing a small testosterone boost. If I had to put a number on it I'd say it had a 35% benefit and I say this because I suspect that POIS may be a multi-faceted problem as opposed to a single magic bullet "cure all" type,(which is rare whatever the malady)  and therefore each success makes a difference, but it's the total affect of all that can lead one towards resolution, or at least a great lessening of the suffering. I do lean heavily toward the idea that this is hormone and or brain neurotransmitter related for those of us afflicted. Though I have had the "flu like symptoms" as well as have noticed the tendency to be immune system challenged post "O", I don't necessarily subscribe to the allergic reaction concept, but rather a deficiency which is highlighted or exaggerated by the usual post "O" physiological mechanism gone awry in our case. (I have tested Cialis and in me anyway it does have a 3 day benefit like your shorter acting Levitra, so I'm on track with your experience with it)

My primary doc is unusual in that he listens to his patients. (whom I see not for POIS but my spinal condition) He gave me some free samples of "Androgel" a testosterone gel (50mg) 1.5 years or so ago, just to see if I might experience some "boost" in a general manner and it was dramatic in a comprehensive way in that ALL ways one can feel better it affected. (well being, sleep, mental physical energy, libido, etc) I would say it was a 60% benefit for the POIS. The gel and cream testosterone preparations are supposed to have less of a spike affect (sharp rise and eventual fall) than the injections but apparently some receive less benefit than others using the skin as a drug delivery reservoir for a 24 hr period. As Androgel is a drug and therefore very expensive (260 a month) I researched the web for some time and discovered that "Compounding Pharmacies" (special type which is legally allowed to make custom preparations) (most town have one) can provide the same thing (with an RX) for much less cost. (50 a month) I have my T levels and PSA checked regularly and it works well for me. I'd like to note here also that I LOWERED my 100 mg Testosterone cream dosage by 25% after proving the L-Tyrosine had a cognitive and libido stimulant benefit and things are pretty smooth now. I also should note that I keep a log to monitor my health and the "O" or "release" days are noted as well. On the day of the start of the L-Tyrosine I had TWO releases in the same day (usually a killer for me as it's a double wammy) and 2 more within the 2 week period without ill affect. I haven't read all the posts here but I'm assuming others have noticed that the longer they go between release (a month is good if one can do that) the less of an affect from POIS, so the opposite is true as well with more releases in a shorter period.

[neverstop]

Neverstop, i have Tyrosine supplements (500mg) in my house. However, when i read the daily intake, it said only take one capsule per day. Did yours also say this?

Also, how quick were your symptoms alleviated?
Did you notice any side effects?

My L-Tyrosine "plus" by Twinlab says 2 capsules a day and lets face it all mfg will err on the cover their butt side of things. I'm taking a total of x4 (or 2000mg or 2 grams) a day without noticeable side affect of any kind. It's pretty common that one can take more than suggested on the label but of course in covering my butt also I can't "suggest" you do so. I am NOT a DR. nor do I play one on TV :-) Symptoms were alleviated the same day but as I've pointed out I am doing more than L-Tyrosine alone. (My Testosterone cream was lowered to 75mg a day and I have taken 200mg of DHEA for the last 14 years which is considered a very "high dosage") My Doc knows I am taking this and blood labs have not indicated my levels are dangerous so what works for one may not for another.

[demografx]

Neverstop, for what it's worth, Cialis was an absolute disaster for me. I expected a big lift (as did my psychiatrist at the time who gave me a sample to take). Full-blown POIS. For me, it must be something in the 36-hour sustenance that backfires on me, vs. Levitra (I haven't experimented with Viagra).

Some of us have been speculating that the stimulation of nitric oxide in Levitra is what causes the POIS relief.

Thanks much for your testosterone story. T+L (daily 10mg patches + 20mgLevitra) with enough time between O's as you mentioned, heals my POIS 80% to 90%, with Day Zero being the only slightly problematic POIS time. If that gets any lower, maybe I'll try adding your regimen of L-tyrosine and/or DHEA.

After 30+ long agonizing years, a life partially ruined by POIS, I am thrilled. I just hope it sustains.

Glad you're here.

[neverstop]

Demo, and I'm glad you and this group are here to share as there definitely is power to the individual through numbers. Hmmmm, I wonder what is different (aside from duration of action) between Cialis and Levitra? I used a 20mg and did have a headache (which I seldom get) and a flushed feeling but no increased POIS symptoms as you experienced. If I test again maybe make it 10 mg. I guess our response will always be different as with any other drug. The Nitric Oxide increase seems plausible regarding the POIS relief. I have a Levitra and a Viagra sample I could test with, but no need at this point.

I would think the "T" patches would be similar in affect to the gels and creams. I am taking a pretty big dose of T and my measured levels reflect it but the Doc and I think it's worth the "risk". (seems to be none so far)

I am 51 and have been suffering for 25+ years so I know what you mean. It feels good to feel good, and I'm not likely to backtrack anything lest I lose it.

[Ambient123]

Thanks for the advice Neverstop. I may just try higher Tyrosine doses. At one capsule (500mg) per day, I noticed very little difference in my POIS symptoms. I was afraid to take more, because i had read of several side effects. Sometimes i think its just best to live in ignorance.

Where did you acquire your DHEA from?

[neverstop]

Ambient123,,,  I wouldn't be too worried about slightly higher doses of L-Tyrosine. It sure seems it would be worth a try on a test basis at least. If I considered every possible purported side affect on all the things I utilize (mostly non drug)(Drugs side affects are pretty scary to ME) daily with great benefit for so many things, I doubt I'd be alive or well enough to be writing at this moment. 1 step at a time, observe, conclude, and move on from there. When I select something I think might help, I think it's best (for me) to go with a good brand and reasonable quantity just to see what if anything occurs. If nothing, maybe you need to try a little longer.

DHEA (in the US) can be purchased at any Vitamin store, (No RX need) however I get mine online from Vitamin Research Products. Vitacost may also have it at a better price than VRP. It's a decent way to go short of going the whole testosterone route which may help you decide if you should go that way should you notice anything beneficial. Give it a good 2 weeks before the first test.

I'd be interested in your results.

[hurray]

Neverstop, welcome to the forum! I've been experimenting with testosterone for 7 years and I'm a convert now (along with Levitra), so your comment about testosterone cream got my attention. Can you elaborate?

Thanks, before addressing the Testosterone, I'd like to mention that the FIRST thing I ever tried (not necessarily for POIS) which proved itself to have any long term benefit was when I first took 100mg a day of DHEA.

Very interesting. It occurred to me that when I first tried out Fenugreek (to alleviate POIS symptoms), I had previously been taking DHEA for unrelated reasons - in fact they may even have overlapped. Could it be that the initial (almost total) success of Fenugreek for me was due to me combining DHEA and Fenugreek?

I intend to give this combination a try at some point in the next week or so.