[Counterpoints]

CP, if someone asks, "isn't POIS just psychosomatic?", what would you tell them?

Imagine we just discovered alcohol, and noticed that after people drink a certain amount, they are intoxicated -- their speech is slurred, they feel different, they lose awareness, etc.  We could say, "isn't this alcohol effect just psychosomatic?" -- after all, they are just drinking a liquid, and getting all these weird symptoms. Or if you want to extend the analogy, we could consider the effects native Indians get when they drink alcohol; "it doesn't affect other people this way, surely it's psychological".  Of course it's possible.  Anything could be psychological.  In this alcohol example, however, it is unlikely, and unwise to act on that assumption.

Unlike with the alcohol analogy, there does seem to be hope for a mostly effective cure, which is good news. However, like with the analogy, treating the problem as solely psychosomatic does not seem like the most rational approach, given the data.  This problem is debilitating, long-lasting, and it happens under very specific conditions.  Further, in an attempt to get an opinion on the "psychosomatic" possibility, I have seen psychiatrists and psychologists -- all who are quite insistent that it is NOT a psychological disorder, (at least by generally accepted definitions), and that I should seek non-psychiatric medical treatment.  In fact, one psychologist insisted that my next plan would be to see a physician immediately. Further, anti-depressant drugs have not had an obvious impact on this problem, for me.

In short, I have a debilitating problem, so I need to do something about it.  And the evidence suggests that treating it as psychosomatic is not a productive approach to recovery.

It's very easy for other people who don't have this problem to wave their hands and say "psychosomatic": they really don't know, and putting it in the "psychological box" makes it easier to think about. I wish more people had the humility and trust to give these issues the serious attention they deserve.

That being said, I think it is important not to obsess about any medical condition (whether it be POIS or diabetes, Parkinson's or MS).  You don't want it to hijack your life more than it already has.  And a positive outlook usually has a good effect on our bodies -- lessening the symptoms of most conditions.

[demografx]

Thanks, CP, that was very helpful!

[Counterpoints]

I was thinking about this some more, and diabetes is a better example. First of all, there are medications which can help.  Also, it would easily be dismissible as psychological.  "Other people eat sugar and feel fine.  How could something so innocuous cause such symptoms?".  etc.  Would treating diabetics as though they have a psychological disorder be an optimal approach? Not likely.

You can imagine if diabetes were more rare, it would probably be dismissed by many as psychological.  In the past, it probably was, somewhat.

[demografx]

It's sad, the level of ignorance out there, even today. But at least we're beyond medieval medicine of Humors, Leeches, Charms, and Prayers!

POIS, being sexual, might have been "cured" by burning at the stake.

[GoingCrazy]

I would have to say my other posts of relora being the "cure", i noticed what it was doing to me as soon as i took it, i seemed alot calmer.  I O'd 3 times the other day and I have to say the first 2 were fine and the 3rd O was the one that started the whole POIS cycle again.  It seemed like the relora was working, maybe if I give it a few months without orgasm-ing and just take relora I would see better results.

And something weird happened the other night while I was dreaming, this was a little less than a week since I "O'd".  I was in the middle of a dream and even in the dream I noticed some sort of rush go into my head and I got a lot cockier, but it was a really "feel-good" sensation, and when I woke up my testicles were aking? haha, I believed maybe they're starting to make a testosterone comeback!?

[martin88]

if testosterone is not the solution for pois, mean if there are other deficiencies in pois you're probably aggravating the whole thing, really hope I'm wrong .

Martin, testosterone is the solution for my POIS.

Definitely I can't talk for you. It's very nice that you feel so confident about your treatment and I'm glad you found a solution after so many years of agony. And I really think testosterone plays an important role in pois.
My thoughts were more based on my own experience with pois. As I already said, sometimes I feel out of pois when in fact a long physical work or stress is enough to bring me back in the real world. If we leave the Occam's razor aside for one minute we realize that nobody really knows why your testosterone is low and how to restore your own production naturally. To me this sounds very medieval..

I think it's important to add that in my case, as a rule, every time I found something which is improving libido, my pois was a lot stronger after, that's why I'm a bit reticent. I've been well educated by this disease, so maybe I have to modify my way of thinking.

[demografx]

sometimes I feel out of pois when in fact a long physical work or stress is enough to bring me back in the real world.

I understand this to mean that we can think that we are feeling good, but that when we are "tested" by more difficult life circumstances we then realize that we are still "in-POIS".

we realize that nobody really knows why your testosterone is low and how to restore your own production naturally. To me this sounds very medieval..

I agree that it's low, without knowing why, and without certain restoration knowledge, but I don't understand your "medieval" descriptor. Is that because I'm treating symptoms only? Because it's risky? If that's what you mean, then perhaps, at this stage of my life, waiting 30+ years for an answer, I wanted to stop the POIS circus. Finally.

ANY approach has associated risks.

every time I found something which is improving libido, my pois was a lot stronger after, that's why I'm a bit reticent.

Me too, if I'm not careful with excess.

[Counterpoints]

I would have to say my other posts of relora being the "cure", i noticed what it was doing to me as soon as i took it, i seemed alot calmer.  I O'd 3 times the other day and I have to say the first 2 were fine and the 3rd O was the one that started the whole POIS cycle again.  It seemed like the relora was working, maybe if I give it a few months without orgasm-ing and just take relora I would see better results.

I find that sometimes one orgasm can cause symptoms, and another subsequent orgasm can alleviate them.  For me, orgasm seems capable of both activating and de-activating symptoms.  Perhaps there is something similar happening with you.

[Porke]

Just reading the comments regarding sugar / carbs in excess. I fully agree with this. I notice that when POIS is bad (1 - 2 days after) i REALLY crave sugar and carbs and coffee. Its almost like I cant stop myself. Any other time, I dont eat sweet things. I have noticed however, the more sugar i eat, the worse POIS symptoms get. I feel very hypoglycemic, tired, nervous, anxious, i dont sleep as deeply, i have unrestful sleep.


When i FORCE myself to just eat very very clean for a day or two after, it usually only lasts a day or two, but instead its very mild.

This just reinforces the idea to me, that this whole thing has to do with adrenals and hormones. Cortisol controls blood sugar, adrenal controls cortisol. Sex is linked to dopamine, high sugar boosts your dopamine. If you have low dopamine levels, you crave things that will boost dopamine levels. Its all interrelated.

[GoingCrazy]

Just reading the comments regarding sugar / carbs in excess. I fully agree with this. I notice that when POIS is bad (1 - 2 days after) i REALLY crave sugar and carbs and coffee. Its almost like I cant stop myself. Any other time, I dont eat sweet things. I have noticed however, the more sugar i eat, the worse POIS symptoms get. I feel very hypoglycemic, tired, nervous, anxious, i dont sleep as deeply, i have unrestful sleep.


When i FORCE myself to just eat very very clean for a day or two after, it usually only lasts a day or two, but instead its very mild.

This just reinforces the idea to me, that this whole thing has to do with adrenals and hormones. Cortisol controls blood sugar, adrenal controls cortisol. Sex is linked to dopamine, high sugar boosts your dopamine. If you have low dopamine levels, you crave things that will boost dopamine levels. Its all interrelated.

thats exactly how i get.  When I crave sugar and eat it I get in the worst mood in POIS,  I have to say I have generally improved over the last year since knowing that orgasm has caused this "disease".  I know longer get in a bad mood when I eat sugar, its very very weird.  I believe we all just need to lower our cortisol so testosterone can be produced and stay celibate for at least a few months so our hormones could be regulated... anybody experience POIS caused by sex without orgasm?

[demografx]

goingcrazy, perhaps you might consider cutting back on the frequency rather than total abstinence for a few months. This way it might prevent building of pent-up frustration, then possibly "exploding" into excess which relora might not help you overcome much. Just a suggestion from past experience.

[martin88]

sometimes I feel out of pois when in fact a long physical work or stress is enough to bring me back in the real world.

I understand this to mean that we can think that we are feeling good, but that when we are "tested" by more difficult life circumstances we then realize that we are still "in-POIS".

we realize that nobody really knows why your testosterone is low and how to restore your own production naturally. To me this sounds very medieval..

I agree that it's low, without knowing why, and without certain restoration knowledge, but I don't understand your "medieval" descriptor. Is that because I'm treating symptoms only? Because it's risky? If that's what you mean, then perhaps, at this stage of my life, waiting 30+ years for an answer, I wanted to stop the POIS circus. Finally.

ANY approach has associated risks.

every time I found something which is improving libido, my pois was a lot stronger after, that's why I'm a bit reticent.

Me too, if I'm not careful with excess.

1) yes it's what I was saying.
2) I understand your approach very well.
I was not referring to risks inherent to testosterone therapy which can certainly be controlled if you don’t ignore them. I was more thinking about a possibility to aggravate pois in the long run, just an old feeling maybe false if you have found THE cure. About the word "medieval" it was about medicine which is treating the symptom and not the cause, I think they are not always very advanced.  But I know we sometimes have to do with what we have, and you seem to have a MD better than usual since he found problems undiagnosed by others.
3)For me who has not been treated, only one time is already an excess!

[demografx]

POIS DIARY

It's nice to be sitting here, on the night of Day Zero, reading a newspaper, making my wife dinner, and reading/writing some posts. Prior to treatment, I would now just mostly be "zoning out". And not pleasurably!

[GoingCrazy]

goingcrazy, perhaps you might consider cutting back on the frequency rather than total abstinence for a few months. This way it might prevent building of pent-up frustration, then possibly "exploding" into excess which relora might not help you overcome much. Just a suggestion from past experience.

I can see how an "exploding" occurence of pois can occur, but I believe after experiencing non-pois symptoms and than coming back to it we tend to think that the affects of pois are a lot greater than they once were, perhaps because we haven't experienced them in a while

[demografx]

Above, I meant that abstinence could cause a backfiring effect of excess [sex], more  difficult for relora than lower sex activity and less POIS.   

[POIS-SUFFERER]

Like I had said in the past, if I abstain, I get horrible urgrs, if these urges are large enough and long enough I start getting POIS symptoms and have not had a release.... so then I figure I might as well have a release and then I feel even worse..... bad cycle.

PS.

[Counterpoints]

Like I had said in the past, if I abstain, I get horrible urgrs, if these urges are large enough and long enough I start getting POIS symptoms and have not had a release.... so then I figure I might as well have a release and then I feel even worse..... bad cycle.

PS.

How long do you have to abstain before the symptoms become like POIS symptoms?

[Dean93]

Hello,

My name is Dean and I believe that I may suffer from POIS. My problems started in my freshman year of highschool in which I would come home everyday and use the hour that I had to myself to masturbate to pornography. I don't ever remember particularly enjoying it, after a while it just felt as if I was doing something to my penis, rather than to myself, like a was watching myself orgasm, rather than experiencing it. This is when I began to feel what I now know to be feelings of de-realization and de-personalization, unable to really exist as a social being at all or feel anything or feel connected to anyone. I also experienced the "brain fog" and mental incapacitation and i was unmotivated to do anything, including music, which I love, and school work, and my grades suffered. I didnt care about anything, i didnt know why i was alive, or why i should do anything. I was without true emotion besides perhaps frustration and depression. I knew that this new condition was due to masturbation, so after a while, I tried to avoid it, but usually due to boredom, getting caught up in porn, or being "unable" to withstand it anymore, I would masturbate again. I would then have to wait about 10 days to recover and feel like myself again. That time would be great but I would then fall again and have to go through a period where i was basically dead, walking around trying to preserve relationships with friends and family until I could, i suppose, regenerate enough energy to really live as a person again. That hell continued until i decided to stop masturbating altogether. My first attempt only caused my head to "fog up" until i was completely non functional and had to masturbate to continue the cycle.

Recently, I was able to not ejaculate for 24 days until I had a wet dream. Sadly,although it took a little longer to set in, the effects were about the same as me having masturbated.

I have been fighting this for only two years, wondering, "Why me?". When I feel alive, powerful and like my true self, i know that life is beautiful and want to live it. But this condition seems near impossible to overcome for me. Although i haven't asked anyone, no one around me seems to experience the same thing. I dont want to live only half of my life, and i dont want to miss oppurtunities in my life because i am disabled. Thinking about living with this for the rest of my life makes me want to cry, and if it wasnt for the better part of my life, i would probably kill myself. When i am like this i am miserable

I have two questions:

Does anyone here who suffers from POIS have a history of excessive masturbation?

And does anybody have any solution or even ways to make this condition the least bit better?

Please I ask of you to share

[demografx]

Dean93, welcome to the POIS thread of The Naked Science Forum!



Dean93, We are making phenomenal progress! See B_Jim's summary below, and look for a successful case similar to yours and work with your doctor. I lived with it (barely) for over 30 years and kept fighting and now we are on the verge of success for many people. Hang in there!

The consensus at this forum to heal your POIS, is to start with hormonal bloodtesting, preferably with an endocrinologist.
 
Here are some POIS forum resources which may be helpful to you:

Please see "B_Jim"'s POIS Forum Summary of All Cases, here as well as others on the Web. This includes remedies that we have tested, and results.
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=6576.msg149009#msg149009

"Girlwind" has created an excellent POIS Video:

And filling out the POIS survey created by "Counterpoints" will enable you to share POIS information and details with others here. This will also enable us to work more easily with outside researchers by having more organized data available about us:
http://pois.olympe-network.com/

POIS Research Study

We have a copy of the first and only study on POIS by Dr. Marcel Waldinger,MD and Dr. David Schweitzer, MD.

If you want a copy (PDF), send "Pyropeach" a Private Message with your regular email address and he'll send you back the PDF.

To send a Private Message, click on "Messages" at the top of this page. At the Messages page, click on "New Message". From that point on, it works just like posting a message here, except that it only goes to the person(s) you designate.

Remember to put a quote around the recipient's name, e.g., "pyropeach".

New York Times article,

January 20, 2009
Mind
Sex and Depression: In the Brain, if Not the Mind
By RICHARD A. FRIEDMAN, M.D.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/20/health/views/20mind.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=friedman%20sexual%20January%2020&st=cse


In addition to serving our own informational interests, the resources listed above can be useful for you to show the medical world - which often shows little understanding and is sometimes skeptical of our condition - that POIS has scientific underpinnings and that POIS is not "just another psychological problem" related to sex - to be treated by the psychiatric/psychotherapist community.

Also, it can be helpful when dealing with medical professionals to point out the successful existence of our rapidly growing forum for over 2 years, which has attracted over 100 POIS sufferers worldwide who have posted here, plus more than 250,000 page visits. Not bad for a rare malady!

[demografx]

Martin88,

Thank you very much for your earlier thoughts on testosterone. I appreciate your cautionary wisdom!

Have you thought more about testing your polling ideas here at the Forum?