[Danny_Boy]

Defsync, thank you for the information. I have been doing all kinds of tantra practices to hold my juices in, to no avail. Really, supplementing molybdenum was the thing in this matter for me.

Dear B_Jim,

I definitely agree, that there are more causes of POIS. I just didnīt want anybody to belive that POIS implies bad hormone situation. Also, on the realthyroidhelp.com forum I have read about a young man having testosterone level of ~200 (measured in the units, where the healthy range is 800-1000), and he was having no problems with either getting an erection or being knocked out after an ejaculation. So neither "low hormones implies POIS" holds in all cases.

As for adrenal fatigue. I donīt think I have any (clearly proved by the blood tests). This is the reason why I said that the hair test is definitely not perfect (some living tissue tests would be better, but I know of no place, where they take a sample of your, say, tigh muscle and analyze it). It said I had AF even though I had none.

The copper thing, as far as I understand it, goes like this. Wilsonīs disease is an inborn disease of copper metabolism, so cooper toxicity and Wilsonīs are two different things in the way orthomolecularism sees it. Copper toxicity simply means that the body has accumulated more copper than it should and now copper is sitting at some sites/enzymes etc. where other elements should be, making metabolism less efficient. I have been taking Zinc supplements over the last years too, to no avail. The problem with zinc, as I read, is that it is only an absorption antagonist. Zinc creates a protein, that inhibits the uptake of copper in the intestines. Hence, if you already are high on copper, zinc will only help you slow down the aggravation of the situation, but will do nothing in order for your body to get rid of the excess copper. This is why other nutrients must be taken (like sulphur any molybdenum).

I momentarily follow this regimen:
3x a day 5mg manganese
4x a day 150 mcg Molybdenum
3x a day 2g of MSM (for sulphur)
3x a day 200mcg niacin bound chromium
3x a day 10mg of ZMA (zinc bound to L-monomethionine)

All of this is supposed to help the body get rid of excess copper and iron (when copper goes high, iron retention goes high).

Here goes a private theory of mine. As a kid + adolescent, I used to overmasturbate a lot. Men lose zinc when they come, so I was low on zinc and my body was open to taking up excessive amounts of copper for years (thatīs how I think I got copper toxic). So I believe that getting rid of excessive copper and replacing it with zinc, I can get better even from the POIS perspective. A pro of this theory is that it sounds at least a bit logical. On the other hand, if every guy who overmasturbated when he was young, was sufering from POIS, this forum would be much larger. It is true, that some congenital copper overload might have happenned, but... This uncertainty of things brings me to the next paragraph.

Here I think I should add something like a disclaimer. After being involved for more than a year in this health regaining quest I know that absolutely nothing works 100%. I was told that everything was in my head - wrong. That antidepressants would help me - wrong. That I would get better if I ate only meat for 2 months - wrong (this is good for weight loss though:). That getting superdoses of iodine would make me disease-free - wrong. That practising yoga would heal me completely - no no. That eating systemic proteolytic enzymes would make me super healthy - wrong. That I would get healthy by just following a given diet - you know the answer for that one too. So, nothing is for sure. I just donīt want anybody to be disappointed if this copper thing doesnīt prove to work out for them, if it makes them feel worse (which is likely to happen according to orthomolecularism authorities, as copper starts being dumped out of places, where it was put by the body to do as little harm as possible), etc. Sometimes I have the feeling that I am just trying to make sense out of thin air, but when you take a look at doctors not knowing what the body works like, the growing prevalence of nearly any disease, you get the feeling that they are not doing much better than I am (we are).

Danny

[demografx]

THISFORUMROCKS!, welcome to the POIS thread of The Naked Science Forum!




Here are some POIS forum resources which may be helpful to you:

Please see "B_Jim"'s POIS Forum Summary of All Cases, here as well as others on the Web. This includes remedies that we have tested, and results.
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=6576.msg149009#msg149009

"Girlwind" has created an excellent POIS Video:

And filling out the POIS survey created by "Counterpoints" will enable you to share POIS information and details with others here. This will also enable us to work more easily with outside researchers by having more organized data available about us:
http://pois.olympe-network.com/

POIS Research Study

We have a copy of the first and only study on POIS by Dr. Marcel Waldinger,MD and Dr. David Schweitzer, MD.

If you want a copy (PDF), send me a Private Message with your regular email address and I'll send you back the PDF.

To send a Private Message, click on "Messages" at the top of this page. At the Messages page, click on "New Message". From that point on, it works just like posting a message here, except that it only goes to the person(s) you designate.

Remember to put a quote around my name, i.e., "demografx".


New York Times article,

January 20, 2009
Mind
Sex and Depression: In the Brain, if Not the Mind
By RICHARD A. FRIEDMAN, M.D.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/20/health/views/20mind.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=friedman%20sexual%20January%2020&st=cse

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

In addition to serving our own informational interests, the resources listed above can be useful for you to show the medical world - which often shows little understanding and is sometimes skeptical of our condition - that POIS has scientific underpinnings and that POIS is not "just another psychological problem" related to sex - to be treated by the psychiatric/psychotherapist community. This can help fight the immediate reaction of some: IT'S NOT "ALL IN OUR HEADS"!

Also, it can be helpful when dealing with medical professionals to point out the successful existence of our rapidly growing forum for over 2 years, which has attracted over 100 POIS sufferers worldwide who have posted here, plus more than 300,000 page visits. Not bad for a rare malady!

[demografx]

THISFORUMROCKS!, this post might help you find information about POIS that we have already discussed, by tailoring a Google search to this POIS forum:


SEARCH POIS FORUM WITH GOOGLE

We have an overwhelming amount of data: over 2 years' worth of posts from 150+ Forum members, and an additional 150 POIS sufferers found on the Internet, but not on this forum.

In the Google search box, type
whatever-it-is-you're-interested-in-finding-out[space]site:http://www.thenakedscientists.com/

for example, I tried
demografx site:http://www.thenakedscientists.com/

and 1,000+ results came up for "demografx" within POIS Forum.

be careful with spaces (you can use them before the word "site") and no-spaces (everything after the word "site")

Google even provides you results with the Message# for each result. But Message #'s do change, so be patient and look for the approximate Message#.

[Limejuice]

Nice work on the webpage!  Is there a link to this forum?

[martin88]

Thanks Mat,Demo for the website!

Has anybody else tried Nytol Herbal immediately following orgasm?
.... I've been taking Nytol Herbal sleeping pills immediately following orgasm (and the next evening) which certainly helps me sleep AND crucially, I believe it significantly lessens my POIS. Nytol Herbal contains "Hops, Valerian and Passion Flower".

Good suggestion. Passion flower contains chrysin which blocks the conversion of testosterone to estrogen.
Recently I had good success for insomnia in POIS after eating cooked leeks...(I don't eat this usually so it can be a temporary effect) 

These people need to take certain copper antagonists (like Molybdenum, zinc, sulphur) and avoid copper containing foods. And since a copper toxicity takes a lot of time to show on a hair test and I had a strong suspicion it might be my case, I decided to give these antagonists a try. This is my third week on a specially designed copper antagonising supplement regimen and I am getting better by the day.

Danny your experience is interesting, really hope it will continue. We talked about excessive copper before but it wasn't mentionned if this was causing POIS. As I said in my first post here my POIS is definitely and considerably increased when eating raw vegetables (high ratio copper/zinc) but I don't know if it can be related. (vitamin C is also a problem for me)

Defsync, I tried "suggestion" a lot to avoid NEs while sexually abstinent but I had no success. It's sure that I didn't try as much as you did.. Also I already said this a long time before, I had some bad effects (kind of depression) from antihistamines taken every evening for a while to avoid NEs. I can say I'm not the same person since I tried this.

[martin88]

I went back to MD and again was told to take antidepressants. I refused 3 times. I explained all about POIS, that I can be well without antidepressants if I stay sexually abstinent etc.. It seems I have been taken seriously because she started talking about possible adrenal problem and I have been refered to 2 differents endo (I didn't ask for even one). Note that this MD never heard about POIS before, it was just based on my symptoms.
She said all my tests are normal including TSH..
She suggested to ask for a catecholamines test (I didn't ask her for this too) to the endo and to tell all my story like I did with her. Additional blood tests from hospital, in POIS day 3:
Total T: 10 (7.9-23.5)
SHBG: 23 (9-46)
T free cal: 217 (182-564)
T bio cal: 5.9 (4.4-13.6)

[mat780]

Dear All,

Thank you!!! for this superb forum!!!
Such a great forum deserved to have its own website!

Remember to add to your bookmarks our brand new website. With time we will expand its content… and hopefully, one day we will add the solution to our problem!

Here goes one more time  []
http://sites.google.com/site/poiswebsite [nofollow]

[Pronobis]

mat780

Very nice job

Congratulations and thank you

[demografx]

Mat, thanks once again! And thanks for the upbeat/optimistic conclusion of one day including POIS solutions!

I just sent you the changes you asked about.

[demografx]

I went back to MD and again was told to take antidepressants. I refused 3 times. I explained all about POIS, that I can be well without antidepressants if I stay sexually abstinent etc.. It seems I have been taken seriously because she started talking about possible adrenal problem and I have been refered to 2 differents endo (I didn't ask for even one). Note that this MD never heard about POIS before, it was just based on my symptoms.
She said all my tests are normal including TSH..
She suggested to ask for a catecholamines test (I didn't ask her for this too) to the endo and to tell all my story like I did with her. Additional blood tests from hospital, in POIS day 3:
Total T: 10 (7.9-23.5)
SHBG: 23 (9-46)
T free cal: 217 (182-564)
T bio cal: 5.9 (4.4-13.6)

Martin, it's very encouraging how you turned the physician around from "it's all in your head", to taking you seriously!

We can all learn from this!

[Defsync]

wow the new site is looking awesome.. i think a doctor who is led to such a site would be quite amazed at how much research has been done by the sufferers here, and I doubt after chking the site out he could look a POIS sufferer in the face and say "its all in your head". great job!

[demografx]

Nice work on the webpage!  Is there a link to this forum?

Thanks, Limejuice! Yes, the very first link is to this forum. We created a "tiny link" for better appearance.

And thank you B_Jim, Martin, Pronobis, Defsync, and THISFORUMROCKS!, for the positive feedback!

[mellivora]

It's been a loooooong time since my last post, sorry. I'm very humbled by all the work that has been going on in my absence, I think it will take at least a month just to catch up! Thanks Demografx (hero member!) for your messages trying to get back in touch with me. I have only just seen these even though the last was sent back in March.

I've just tried to fill out Counterpoints Survey which I'm sorry to say I haven't done up to now. However, when I clicked the link provided by demografx on p218 (wow 218 pages!) I received a message saying there is a serious problem with the file server. I shall try again later (hopefully the data is not in jeopardy).

For my part, I am still very much a POIS sufferer and hope this time I really can get back to being pro-active again. I'm afraid I slipped into a routine of just getting on with life and realise I have become guilty of a habit of appearing briefly on the forum and then disappearing again. But you guys have the right idea and motivation. Well done and humble thanks for continuing to fuel such a vibrant breeding ground for research, ideas, outreach, companionship and inspiration.

I hope to contribute more in future
Best to all,

[Counterpoints]

Hi,

Good work with the website.  Please add a link to the survey: http://pois.olympe-network.com

Also, while I think the compendium is a good idea, and some great work has gone into it, it needs major revisions.  For example, listing "exercise" as unsuccessful is incorrect.... it has been moderately to highly successful, for several people.  I also think the subsequent orgasm effect, which has been mentioned many many times by me, and by other members also, should be described.... this is a very crucial observation. 

And there is no mention of the low sugar high protein diet, first described by B_Jim, which has probably been more generally successful than any other method we've discussed thus far.

Perhaps we should allow time for revisions of the compendium before public posting (I believe the currently uploaded compendium is the original version, and there have been many edits since then), or at least implement a wikipedia style system where edits are easy to make.  At the very least, I do not think it is presently in a state we should release to physicians and researchers.

In regards to the "show of hands" for a research study... we can get an idea of willing participants from the survey responses.  Those who filled out the survey have shown a willingness to take part in POIS research, and are reachable.  A second show of hands, (as is being done now), is still useful, to gauge current activity levels.... but it is worth mentioning we already have an estimate of this sort.

All the recent developments here are really encouraging.

[demografx]

Hi,

Good work with the website.  Please add a link to the survey: http://pois.olympe-network.com

With Waldinger's paper, instead of giving it to anyone, I thought we'd create an incentive to join the forum here. So we're asking to first register at NSF (you need to in order to send/receive PM's), then send PM with regular email and PDF is returned.

Do you want to do that with the survey?

[demografx]

It's been a loooooong time since my last post, sorry. I'm very humbled by all the work that has been going on in my absence, I think it will take at least a month just to catch up! Thanks Demografx (hero member!) for your messages trying to get back in touch with me. I have only just seen these even though the last was sent back in March.

I've just tried to fill out Counterpoints Survey which I'm sorry to say I haven't done up to now. However, when I clicked the link provided by demografx on p218 (wow 218 pages!) I received a message saying there is a serious problem with the file server. I shall try again later (hopefully the data is not in jeopardy).

For my part, I am still very much a POIS sufferer and hope this time I really can get back to being pro-active again. I'm afraid I slipped into a routine of just getting on with life and realise I have become guilty of a habit of appearing briefly on the forum and then disappearing again. But you guys have the right idea and motivation. Well done and humble thanks for continuing to fuel such a vibrant breeding ground for research, ideas, outreach, companionship and inspiration.

I hope to contribute more in future
Best to all,

mellivora, welcome back!

What a wonderful, inspirational tribute you wrote to this struggling group of naysayers! [] (Nah, I'm just describing myself!).

You wrote, "I am still very much a POIS sufferer and hope this time I really can get back to being pro-active again."

I find that, since I became pro-active a couple years ago, it helped a lot. And it probably contributed to my finding a successful treatment. At first, I was simply not fond of the idea of visiting an endocrinologist and doing a bunch of bloodtesting! Getting involved here, well, made me feel like a hypocrite for not doing that!

And when I'm in POIS-misery (I haven't fully escaped POIS, the zookeeper wants me around for posterity), reading, posting and helping others, once again, helps.

Take a look at the new website! A work in progress...
http://sites.google.com/site/poiswebsite/

[demografx]

A new photograph of Dr Waldinger was found on the internet:

Dr. Marcel D. Waldinger, neuropsychiatrist, Primary Investigator and author of the classic 2002 POIS Study. He has been in communication with our POIS Forum.

For a copy of his POIS study, send a private message to me with your regular email address and I will send you a PDF copy.

Marcel Waldinger, MD, PhD, is one of the leading PE (premature ejaculation) researchers in the world, and a staunch proponent of the neurobiological origin theory of the disorder.

Marcel D. Waldinger is a neuropsychiatrist and head of the Department of Consultative Psychiatry and the outpatient Department of Neurosexology at Leyenburg Hospital in The Hague in The Netherlands.

He is Associate Professor in Sexual Psychopharmacology at the Faculty of Pharmaceutical Sciences of the University of Utrecht in The Netherlands.

Since 1992, Dr. Waldinger treats and investigates premature ejaculation (ejaculatio praecox) and other ejaculatory problems. In 1997 he received his PhD on this subject.

His renewing ideas and studies have been published in various scientific journals and daily newspapers.

The outpatient Department of Neurosexology of the Leyenburg Hospital in The Hague has been the most specialized outpatient clinic for the treatment of premature ejaculation in the Netherlands and Europe for the last 15 years.

His new book, Premature Ejaculation: The New Neuroscientific and Drug Treatment Approach, May 1, 2009 is now available at Amazon.com as a signup for notification when it becomes available.

[demografx]

Dr. Dave Schweitzer, co-author of the original 2002 POIS Study with Dr. Marcel Waldinger, also in touch with our forum here, since 1994 internist-endocrinologist in Reinier de Graaf Groep, Netherlands. His interest is mainly in hormonal diseases and diseases of the metabolism. He does research on the endocrinology of sexuality and seriously overweight. His work is published in international journals.

[demografx]

I forgot to tell you about my blood test (made some hours after 2 orgasms). So according to reference values all hormones are normal, but my testosterone level is high . Do you think that's normal?
I read that decreasing level of testosterone results with a stress, the latter is the cause of some skin problems (as I have). If I have high testosterone level what could it be?  [] [] []

Pronobis, I think that your physician is best equipped to answer this question, coupled with the rest of your medical history.

The link below might be a starting point for you, based on some searching for "high testosterone level in men", which is a fairly high-request search on Google:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=high+testosterone+level+in+men&aq=f&oq=&aqi=

[Danny_Boy]

Dear martin88,

I urge you to find some real information on hormones (preferably at newbielink:http://forums.realthyroidhelp.com/viewforum.php?f=5 [nonactive]). If your doctor tells you, that you are fine because youīre "in the norm" and you trust him/her, you are making a mistake. There is a difference between normal and healthy ranges. Let me tell you, how "normal" is being constructed. You take, say, 150 people, take their blood, measure their hormones and design the range so that X% of those 150 people lie in that range. Obviously, this works fine, when the those sample people are healthy. When they are not and their hormonal levels are out of whack, you get a much wider range than you would get with healthy people. This is how it can happen, that 25 years ago a man was considered infertile when he had less than 100M spermia per ml of juice. Today, since the fertility rates are going down and the above described method is flawed, anybody having more  than 25M spermia per ml of juice is considered FERTILE! People suffering from thyroid disease are often told, that a TSH of, say, 2 is good, since the normal range is 0.XX - 4 (roughly). However, thyroid sufferers only feel good, when their TSH gets under 1.5 or so! When TSH is larger than that, they feel miserable independently on the type or quantity of medication. So, to sum this long article up..all of your testo is LOW! I didnīt see your thyroid labs, but FT4 should be in the upper third/quarter of the range to be healthy, TSH should be as low as possible (anything under 1 is superb). If you are from US, you are a lucky guy:) Contact Dr. John Crisler ( newbielink:http://www.allthingsmale.com/index.htm [nonactive]). He knows the difference between normal and healthy and has helped many men fighting testosterone deficiency.

For informational completenessī sake, I should add my personal experience with dieting. Low sugar, high protein, high fat diet is what keeps me going and strong. When I eat high carbo, not to mention vegetarian, diet, I get weak, tired, sleepy and depressed. Maybe, it all has something to do with high insulin (again donīt confuse normal and healthy), which is driven down by aerobic excercise that helps many folks here, including me.

I have read some discussions here on B vitamins. If you have homocystein above 6, you are probably low on B6 and or B12 and or folic acid. When it comes to good mood, which many people are fighting here to get, nothing helped me more, than the metabolized form of B6, namely P5P. A three month supply from Swansonīs costs $5. This is making me a very positive, funny and social type of person. Got me rid of depression in a week, when nothing helped (L-Thryptophan, 5-HTP..you name it).

I was wondering, what might have predetermined me to suffer from POIS and I would like to ask you guys, when you were babies, were you breastfed? I was prematurely born and I didnīt receive a single breast-feeding my entire life. BF makes the immune system strong (catching un on Coremanīs success with Alpha 20C for immunity), so maybe it is somehow involved in our problem. To test whether immunity has any effect on POIS, I will try two immune support products (EPICOR and Immunity essentials from Swansonīs) soon and report back with results.

All of you take care,
D.