[John21 (OP)]

It feels amazing just to know that I'm not crazy and that this is an actual disorder...

Actually POIS is fictional and you are quite crazy, just like we are. Just kidding, welcome to the knowledge that you are not the only one with this condition. At minimum this forum will keep you from feeling like such an alien.

[daveman]

At minimum this forum will keep you from feeling like such an alien.

And that is a BIG plus. I think that factor alone reduced the suffer factor by a good 30 or 40%. The tension of not knowing what the f... is going on, makes you feel a whole lot worse. And maybe, we still don't really know what the f... is going on, but it's got a name and there IS a movement towards understanding it, definite steps toward making it more comfortable and even finding a cure!!

And it's all happening here folks!

[horizon]

it more comfortable and even finding a cure!!

am I the only one wondering if that nestorone gel/testosterone (contraceptive) study by labiomed.org could prove to be the best cure we have?
i'd sign up if i could.

[demografx]

Here's the press release on that study. Should we contact them?
http://www.labiomed.org/users/news/press/Wang%20male%20contraceptive%20trial%20PR.pdf

[horizon]

Here's the press release on that study. Should we contact them?
http://www.labiomed.org/users/news/press/Wang%20male%20contraceptive%20trial%20PR.pdf

Ive sent emails (copy sent to your PM).. you could call them sometime maybe..(?)..

Im very curious to find out how Nestorone Gel differs from (Limejuice's) Norethisterone pills,
basically how does one Progestin differ from another (on men)?

and, of course, how Nestorone/Testosterone effects POIS.

I have a real hunch that no sperm production signals from the pituitary gland would mean an end to POIS.

Unfortunately I dont live in America to sign up. I dont want to do a DIY job on my own without monitoring. I cant build a relationship because of POIS, but if I was in one I could always come off the hormone therapy to have kids.

[Limejuice]

The two progesterones are probably real similar.  Here's a chart that shows Norethisterone used in male contraception clinical trials.

http://www.rhtp.org/contraception/documents/EmergingMalemethodsDec08.pdf

Here's the press release on that study. Should we contact them?
http://www.labiomed.org/users/news/press/Wang%20male%20contraceptive%20trial%20PR.pdf

Ive sent emails (copy sent to your PM).. you could call them sometime maybe..(?)..

Im very curious to find out how Nestorone Gel differs from (Limejuice's) Norethisterone pills,
basically how does one Progestin differ from another (on men)?

and, of course, how Nestorone/Testosterone effects POIS.

I have a real hunch that no sperm production signals from the pituitary gland would mean an end to POIS.

Unfortunately I dont live in America to sign up. I dont want to do a DIY job on my own without monitoring. I cant build a relationship because of POIS, but if I was in one I could always come off the hormone therapy to have kids.

[horizon]

The two progesterones are probably real similar.  Here's a chart that shows Norethisterone used in male contraception clinical trials.
http://www.rhtp.org/contraception/documents/EmergingMalemethodsDec08.pdf

Limejuice,
ive got some questions..
1) What has your doctor/endo said about the safety/longterm effects of progesterone?
2) The NZ website- can anyone buy the pills? or did you need a prescription from your doctor first?
3) Do you think you should be on testosterone too?- Are you tempted in contacting LABiomed to ask them whether you should be adding testosterone to your routine for safety/balance?
4) are you tempted in enrolling on the Nestorone/T study instead of your Norethisterone pills? to maybe get better analysis on it effects on your body?

one for demo,
1)have you spoke to your endocrinologist about all this (norethisterone & Nestorone)?

Many thanks

[Limejuice]

Hi Horizon,

What I say is mearly opinion or inference most the time.  Here are brief answers to the questions:

1) The primary care doctor was skeptical about the side effects of progesterone in males because it hasn't been studied.  There really not sure unfortunately.

2) Generally, online international pharmacies do not require prescriptions.  This can be researched per website.

3) I have no clue if I should be on T too.  I'm hesitent to try another hormone at this point as I'm still testing progesterone.  I am curious, given the new sperm theory, what the effects of this new hormone mix could do.

4) If this 90% cure remains only 90% over months, I may revisit comptemplating about the male contraception.

What are you thoughts on enrolling?

What are other forum members thoughts too?

[lauracostis]

it is good to see that a couple of you have picked on the possible cure of pois using progesterone/testosterone male contraceptives which blocks sperm production by effectivly antagonizing LH and FSH.

if you want to do the study which i think would be a good idea. i would not mention pois, these studies are for healthy adult males, they dont want an oddball with pois throwing a wing-nut into their study. someone with pois is the last person in the world they would put in their contraceptive trial.

[demografx]

Good point, laurac.

[demografx]

one for demo,
1) have you spoken to your endocrinologist about all this (norethisterone & Nestorone)?

I haven't. Because of switching insurance plans, I'm now working with a GP.

But I'd like to repeat the caveat about progesterone, since you weren't here.

Progesterone

I asked my pharmacology-attorney friend with a major government state agency about progesterone. His reply:

" [Demo], I'd be real careful using progesterone. See below. "

             

                   Progesterone Side Effects

==================================================
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=6576.msg309489#msg309489
==================================================

[martin88]

Very interesting info that testosterone decreases fertility because testicles stop their function.

However I think testosterone is stimulating sperm production.

5 percent of sperm comes from testicles:
Testicles and epididymes 5 per cent 
Seminal vesicles  46 to 80 per cent
Prostate gland  13 to 33 per cent
Bulbourethral and urethral glands 2 to 5 per cent
http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/menshealth/facts/semenandsperm.htm

the prostate fluid itself is rich in zinc, magnesium, citric acid, phosphoric acid, ...

"Without testosterone, the prostate will also stop producing fluid because the prostate cells depend on testosterone for this function."
http://www.andrologyaustralia.org/pageContent.asp?pageCode=THEPROSTATE

[demografx]

Interesting, Martin!

[horizon]

Thanks demo, i intend to do lots of research before considering anything
(like reading the forum.. i've read all 336 pages now!)

http://www.thinkmuscle.com/articles/ullis/contrarian-02.htm
http://www.npis.info/canmenbenefit.htm
http://www.progesteronetherapy.com/progesterone-for-men.html

The last one says The reference ranges for oestradiol, testosterone and progesterone for men are

Oestradiol 0.5 - 2.2 pg/ml
Progesterone 15 - 100 pg/ml
Testosterone 44 - 148 pg/ml

Ive got out-of-pois (feeling well) tests results pending.
I wish i asked for Oestradiol too.

I'll have to find a 'don' in the field to analysis me!
(good news progesterone doesnt create feminine-like features in men though! quote "So, despite often being, erroneously, thought of as a 'female' hormone progesterone for men is essential to preserve masculinity!")

Limejuice are your pills considered 'Natural Progesterone' or 'Synthetic Progestin'?
Thanks

Im really just thinking about getting some as emergency type treatment when things get bad as oppose to regular useage.

[Limejuice]

I want to clarify a statement I made that may be misleading.  I originally thought progesterone resolved my carbohydrate sensativity - simple and complex (non-veggy) carbs.  Thats incorrect - I still have carb sensativity issues.

Horizon, the progesterone is synthetic.

[demografx]

jjjackson, welcome to the POIS thread of The Naked Science Forum!




Here are some POIS resources which may be helpful to you:


Our new POIS chatroom (realtime chat). Invite or visit another member(s) there, ANY TIME. We can all get to know each other better:
http://forums.delphiforums.com/POIS/chat

Our new POIS Information Website, built by "mat780", is here:
http://sites.google.com/site/POISwebsite/

Please see "B_Jim"'s POIS Summary of All Cases, here as well as others on the Web. This includes remedies that we have tested, and results.
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=6576.msg149009#msg149009

"Girlwind" has created an excellent POIS Video:

And filling out the POIS survey created by "Counterpoints" will enable you to share POIS information and details with others here.
http://pois.olympe-network.com/

POIS Research Study

We have a copy of the first and only formal medical investigation on POIS by Dr. Marcel Waldinger,MD and Dr. Dave Schweitzer, MD.

There are 2 ways to get it: (1) if you want a PDF copy, send me a Private Message (PM) with your regular email address (use "AT" instead of "@" ) and I'll send you back the PDF. Or, if you prefer, (2) I can simply reply with a Private Message (no regular email needed) and provide you with a simple text version embedded in your PM.

To send a Private Message, click on "Messages" at the top of this page. At the Messages page, click on "New Message". From that point on, it works just like posting a message here, except that it only goes to the person(s) you designate.

Remember to put a quote around my name, i.e., "demografx".


New York Times article,

January 20, 2009
Mind
Sex and Depression: In the Brain, if Not the Mind
By RICHARD A. FRIEDMAN, M.D.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/20/health/views/20mind.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=friedman%20sexual%20January%2020&st=cse

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

In addition to serving our own informational interests, the resources listed above can be useful for you to show our credibility to the medical world - which often shows little understanding and is sometimes skeptical of our condition: POIS has scientific underpinnings and POIS is not "just another psychological problem" related to sex - to be treated by the psychiatric/psychotherapeutic community. All of this information can greatly help you to fight the immediate reaction of some doctors: so just tell them, "IT'S NOT "ALL IN OUR HEADS"!

Also, it can be helpful when dealing with medical professionals to point out the successful existence of our rapidly growing forum, which has already been referenced in respectable sources such as the British Medical Journal and wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postorgasmic_illness_syndrome

For for over 3 years, our POIS forum has attracted over 150 POIS sufferers worldwide who have posted here, plus over 600,000 page visits. Not bad for a rare malady!

[demografx]

jjjackson, this post will help you find information about POIS that we have already discussed, by tailoring a Google search to this forum:


SEARCH THE FORUM WITH GOOGLE

We have an overwhelming amount of data: 3 years' worth of posts (over 7,000 posts!) from 150+ Forum members, and an additional 150 POIS sufferers found elsewhere on the Internet by Member B_Jim.

In the Google search box, type
whatever-it-is-you're-interested-in-finding-out[space]POIS[space]site:http://thenakedscientists.com/

for example, I tried
demografx POIS site:http://thenakedscientists.com/

and 1,000+ results came up for "demografx" within the Forum.

be careful with spaces (you can use them before the word "site") and no-spaces (everything after the word "site")

Google even provides you results with the Message# for each result. But Message #'s do change, so be patient and look for the approximate Message#.

[demografx]

Ive sent emails (copy sent to your PM).. you could call them sometime maybe..(?)..

Horizon, on behalf of the forum, I want to thank you very much for sending out those emails! We need as much outreach as we can possibly do, so thank you again for your contribution!

[lauracostis]

Very interesting info that testosterone decreases fertility because testicles stop their function.

However I think testosterone is stimulating sperm production.

5 percent of sperm comes from testicles:
Testicles and epididymes 5 per cent 
Seminal vesicles  46 to 80 per cent
Prostate gland  13 to 33 per cent
Bulbourethral and urethral glands 2 to 5 per cent
http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/menshealth/facts/semenandsperm.htm

the prostate fluid itself is rich in zinc, magnesium, citric acid, phosphoric acid, ...

"Without testosterone, the prostate will also stop producing fluid because the prostate cells depend on testosterone for this function."
http://www.andrologyaustralia.org/pageContent.asp?pageCode=THEPROSTATE

oh ya, when i use the word progesterone or the letter P i am actually referring to Progestin (synthetic progesterone).

testosterone does stimulate sperm production, but when levels go up and reach a certain point they antagonize LH and FSH which cause testosterone and sperm production to shut off. its a negative feed back cycle using testosterone to regulate sperm production. people who have very low testosterone levels will have very low sperm counts, by raising T levels up to normal ranges, sperm levels will return to normal.  on the other hand a person with normal T levels who takes Testosterone will see his sperm levels decline, this is how the male contraceptive works.

actually with the male contraceptives they found that using T alone is not very affective on white males at making them totally sterile(that is their sperm levels are so low that they could never get anyone pregnant). the trials that took place in asia with T alone didnt work good enough for white males so they found a better concoction with T and P combined. this is a much better combo. when T is used alone it causes hypertestosteronimia to shut of LH and FSH whitch in turn shuts off sperm production. the problem is that hypertestosteronimia has many adverse side effects associated with it, some of which may not be fully reversible after treatment has stopped.  progesterone on the other hand is just as effective or more effective at antagonizing LH and FSH which will shut down sperm production, but does not cause any of the adverse side effects as with taking large amounts of T does. the other effect that P has on the body besides stopping the release of LH and FSH is to lower the level of Testosterone. this is because LH is responsible for creating more T.

 this is where T's role come in to play in the contraceptive, its role is for replacement of lost T from taking Progesterone, not as the agent that blocks LH and FSH, this is P role in the contraceptive.
P is used instead of T as the blocking agent because it has little to know androgenic effect on the male body, while T is the major chemical force driving the male body and increasing it to higher levels than the body needs has a major effect on all systems.

Progesterone/testosterone male contraceptive has been successfully tested in reproductive studies/trials in over 48 countries. not by drug companies mostly, but by state agencies over the concern of the exponential growth in the human population.  all effects(sperm count) were fully reversible after treatment ended. most patients probably thought they had been given the placebo control.

taking progestin will lower your T levels.  the original study that tested progesterone on males in the 1960's used 100mg true progesterone suppositories 5x daily( 500mg a day total),this is a lot, which lowered T levels up to 45 %.  these patients reported no side effects in there daily life and no side effects on their libido from this large reduction of T. after treatment ended patients were tested a few months latter, all hormone levels and sperm levels had returned to normal.

if you have low t levels you should consider using a T replacement if you are thinking about using progestin on a regular basis.

 

[horizon]

Ive sent emails (copy sent to your PM).. you could call them sometime maybe..(?)..

Horizon, on behalf of the forum, I want to thank you very much for sending out those emails! We need as much outreach as we can possibly do, so thank you again for your contribution!

No probs!
another study on now
http://www.ed.ac.uk/news/all-news/contraceptive-121009
I also emailed ANZAC Research Institute in Australia who have completed a 5 year study.

going back to that progesterone/pregnancy/pois article.
this tv show suggests that men go through hormonal changes during child birth
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00rvv6t
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Couvade_syndrome