[demografx]

I also emailed ANZAC Research Institute in Australia who have completed a 5 year study.

Teriffic, Horizon!

[martin88]

Laurac,
Thanks for these precisions, I understand better the role of P. Maybe T has also a little effect to block LH and FSH, since it was fully effective as a contraceptive for some people.
For people who want to try hormones, this contraceptive will help to have them prescribed by MD without too much discussion about POIS. But maybe it's better to find a doctor who's ready to discuss about POIS.

on the other hand a person with normal T levels who takes Testosterone will see his sperm levels decline.

It's not clear for me if you mean sperm as semen or spermatozoid.

I'm not sure sperm production (the part coming from prostate and seminal vesicles) is suppressed when T is normal or high even if LH, FSH are blocked by P or T. This would mean dry ejaculations. So if it's true we can't use this to dismiss fluid loss as a cause for POIS.

[demografx]

I think testosterone is stimulating sperm production.

Martin, I can feel that happening in my body!

I think this is 90% of my success with POIS treatment.

I could be wrong, but it seems that a much speedier sperm regeneration time - because of my daily testosterone treatment - is the reason that I recover from POIS so much more quickly than before. (Sometimes I recover in 2-3 hours now, compared to 4 days before!)

But I can't prove it. []

[horizon]

Thats good,

so perhaps then the sperm making signals stop earlier too since they've finished their job, (2-3hrs is probably normal to recover from sex?)
whereas perhaps progestins simply reduce the sperm making signals in general?

either way, less work for the testes and pituitary

what company makes your patches demo?
also limejuice what comapny makes your Norethisterone pills?

thanks

[horizon]

On the forum to-get-tested list there was also

Neurotransmitter Test
=====================
Serotonin
Acetylcholine
Dopamine
GABA
Histamine

Has anyone had any success with this route?
For example, what is the GABA test?
Does a pois sufferer need to strengthen GABA nervous control, if so how?

[lauracostis]

Laurac,
Thanks for these precisions, I understand better the role of P. Maybe T has also a little effect to block LH and FSH, since it was fully effective as a contraceptive for some people.
For people who want to try hormones, this contraceptive will help to have them prescribed by MD without too much discussion about POIS. But maybe it's better to find a doctor who's ready to discuss about POIS.

on the other hand a person with normal T levels who takes Testosterone will see his sperm levels decline.

It's not clear for me if you mean sperm as semen or spermatozoid.

I'm not sure sperm production (the part coming from prostate and seminal vesicles) is suppressed when T is normal or high even if LH, FSH are blocked by P or T. This would mean dry ejaculations. So if it's true we can't use this to dismiss fluid loss as a cause for POIS.

i am taking about sperm not semen. to make it clear sperm are haploid sex gametes(the little critters with tails that carrier are dna and combine with the egg. sperm are produced and stored in concentrated amounts in the testicles. concentrated sperm is added to semen where it is diluted by the semen. semen is just a mixture of special fluids to carry sperm. semen will still come out in its normal amount with out sperm. the male contraceptive does not cause dry ejaculations, just semen with little to know sperm. sperm makes up only a small amount of the total volume of semen, not something you can see.

yes T does stop sperm production very well just like P. it can cause you to be infertile if taken a the right amount, but the scientist in the studies are looking for sperm counts so low that it would be virtually impossible to get a girl pregnant. in white males they found that this happened in only 7 or 8 out of 10 people. a contraceptive that is only 70% effective in white males is a worth less product.
the P and T combo can get 99.99% effective in white males.

[lauracostis]

Thats good,

so perhaps then the sperm making signals stop earlier too since they've finished their job, (2-3hrs is probably normal to recover from sex?)
whereas perhaps progestins simply reduce the sperm making signals in general?

either way, less work for the testes and pituitary

what company makes your patches demo?
also limejuice what comapny makes your Norethisterone pills?

thanks

it takes over 90 days for a sperm to mature, the refractory period probably has to do with making more fluid(semen) not sperm. it might take a week or so to make an immature sperm, and then the rest of the time it spend maturing to become viable.

[lauracostis]

I think testosterone is stimulating sperm production.

Martin, I can feel that happening in my body!

I think this is 90% of my success with POIS treatment.

I could be wrong, but it seems that a much speedier sperm regeneration time - because of my daily testosterone treatment - is the reason that I recover from POIS so much more quickly than before. (Sometimes I recover in 2-3 hours now, compared to 4 days before!)

But I can't prove it. []

i see your theory and its a good one. i believe that its the LH and FSH released after sperm is lost that is causeing the problem. and if you can rplace the sperm quicker, the faster you will shut down FSH and LH, and the faster you will recover from pois.  the thing is that the male contraceptive stops FSH and LH from being released after O. your T may be speeding up the process if your not taking more than the thresh-hold amount to shut off sperm production or it may just be blocking FSH and LH from being released in to your system and messing you up. if your on the male contraceptive or a high amount of T, you dont have to worry about replacing sperm because you wont have any to replace in the first place. the male contraceptive removes the sperm and the hormones used to replace them.  i cant see any reason why not having any sperm would cause one to feel bad, its the hormones and chemicals released to replace the sperm that would cause the problem. its chemicals that human body reacts to.

[horizon]

the question is then lauracostis,
how are you going to go about testing your theory??

[Guthrie]

I think testosterone is stimulating sperm production.

Martin, I can feel that happening in my body!

I think this is 90% of my success with POIS treatment.

I could be wrong, but it seems that a much speedier sperm regeneration time - because of my daily testosterone treatment - is the reason that I recover from POIS so much more quickly than before. (Sometimes I recover in 2-3 hours now, compared to 4 days before!)

But I can't prove it. []

i see your theory and its a good one. i believe that its the LH and FSH released after sperm is lost that is causeing the problem. and if you can rplace the sperm quicker, the faster you will shut down FSH and LH, and the faster you will recover from pois.  the thing is that the male contraceptive stops FSH and LH from being released after O. your T may be speeding up the process if your not taking more than the thresh-hold amount to shut off sperm production or it may just be blocking FSH and LH from being released in to your system and messing you up. if your on the male contraceptive or a high amount of T, you dont have to worry about replacing sperm because you wont have any to replace in the first place. the male contraceptive removes the sperm and the hormones used to replace them.  i cant see any reason why not having any sperm would cause one to feel bad, its the hormones and chemicals released to replace the sperm that would cause the problem. its chemicals that human body reacts to.

lauracostis, your theory is very interesting!  One quick question: if the release of LH and FSH are what causes POIS, why would those two chemicals have that effect?  Are you proposing that POIS sufferers are allergic to those chemicals, whereas normal people are not?  Or would it be that the amount of LH and FSH released by POIS sufferers is more than the amount that most people release, so that there are 'overload-effects'?  Are there examples in the scientific literature of those chemicals having negative effects on people?

[horizon]

lauracostis
i might be wrong but didnt limejuice originally quash a bout of pois by taking a one-off a high dose of progesterone?

if so, wouldnt there be a release of LH and FSH after the drugs wore off to reload him with sperm?
if so, why didnt he get a very late pois bout then?

perhaps, LS and FSH + inflammation = pois?

[demografx]

what company makes your patches demo?

Androderm, 3 5mg patches (15mg) daily. I also take ADHD-prescribed Ritalin daily, which I believe helps.

On "Day Zero", both meds are ramped up slightly, which is a further boost.

More than you asked, I know []

[demografx]

In my 3 and 1/2 years here at the forum, our recent discussions seem to me the most exciting, on the verge of real POIS discovery!

[daveman]

However I think testosterone is stimulating sperm production.

5 percent of sperm comes from testicles:
Testicles and epididymes 5 per cent 
Seminal vesicles  46 to 80 per cent
Prostate gland  13 to 33 per cent
Bulbourethral and urethral glands 2 to 5 per cent
http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/menshealth/facts/semenandsperm.htm

But if I'm not mistaken, the sperm of the seminal vesicles comes form the testicles by way of the vas diferens. It seems that he must be talking about the content supplied in the moment of ejaculation.

[horizon]

what company makes your patches demo?

Androderm, 3 5mg patches (15mg) daily. I also take ADHD-prescribed Ritalin daily, which I believe helps.

On "Day Zero", both meds are ramped up slightly, which is a further boost.

More than you asked, I know []

thanks!

How much does the testosterone therapy cost you per month??

what is ADHD?

[daveman]

Laurac:

I had thought that my condition, auto-immune reaction to sperm because of a vesectomy reversal potentially gone wrong, was different that the norm (among POIS sufferes), but am beginning tho think that this is perhaps not all that true.

Perhaps we can look to the male contraceptive solution as a cure, but it is more of a bridge that prevents symptoms because of some other failure we have. our condition is not normal.

I feel that perhaps we all suffer a similar problem to mine, an auto-immune reaction to sperm, from whatever the cause.

Limejuice's solution and Demos solution both work because they reduce the effects or potential for this auto-immune reaction.

Following your line of analysis, does both of LJ's and Demo's regimines reduce sperm production? Does LJ's schedule have any effect on reduction of the potential auto-immune attack, moreso than any potential for reduction of sperm production?

I personally have been working on ejaculation control, trying to evade retrograde flow. It's not easy, and I'm in day 1 now after which I did not have retrograde flow, waiting symptomatic results to further confirm my thoughts. When I have retrograde flow, I have milky pee about a day later. I suspect that the milkiness are white blood cells that the liver has extracted from the bloodstream.

If I don't have retrograde flow, but have light POIS symptoms, I don't have milky pee, but do collect a hard resedue on the bottom of the "bowl". If I am not in POIS I have no residue whatsoever.

I could be interesting for others to collect and visually inspect their pee in the 5 days following "O".

[horizon]

On wiki it says, the gonads (ovaries or testes) produce hormones:
Testosterone,
Progesterone,
Estradiol,
Antimullerian hormone,
Inhibin B,
Activin
(and gametes- eggs or sperm).

Perhaps rather than needing to go the "whole hog" and stopping all sperm production, maybe its a case where we just need to find a way to replace all of those other hormones???

Testosterone- TICK (Found to work)
Progesterone- TICK (Found to work)

Estradiol- NEED TO FIND?
Antimullerian hormone- NEED TO FIND?
Inhibin B-  NEED TO FIND?
Activin- NEED TO FIND?

Ok, I know this is endocrinology at its crudest,
I know nothing about this subject
but it seems logical, doesnt it???

 

[martin88]

i am taking about sperm not semen. to make it clear sperm are haploid sex gametes(the little critters with tails that carrier are dna and combine with the egg.

it's very clear now. Confusing when there's 2 definitions for the same word http://www.thefreedictionary.com/sperm

I think testosterone is stimulating sperm production.

Martin, I can feel that happening in my body!

I think this is 90% of my success with POIS treatment.

I could be wrong, but it seems that a much speedier sperm regeneration time - because of my daily testosterone treatment - is the reason that I recover from POIS so much more quickly than before. (Sometimes I recover in 2-3 hours now, compared to 4 days before!)

But I can't prove it. []

I agree with you but it's a very subjective feeling.
T has so many actions (including sperm production) that you can feel a lot of things from it.

However I think testosterone is stimulating sperm production.

5 percent of sperm comes from testicles:
Testicles and epididymes 5 per cent 
Seminal vesicles  46 to 80 per cent
Prostate gland  13 to 33 per cent
Bulbourethral and urethral glands 2 to 5 per cent
http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/menshealth/facts/semenandsperm.htm

But if I'm not mistaken, the sperm of the seminal vesicles comes form the testicles by way of the vas diferens.

If that's what you wanted to say I think seminal vesicles have their own fluid secretions + sperm from testicles.

[daveman]

Laurac:

I feel that perhaps we all suffer a similar problem to mine, an auto-immune reaction to sperm, from whatever the cause.

.... or FH / FSH.

What I want to say is similar to what Demo is saying.... I too, like others here feel that we are in a pretty good line here, perhaps better than it's been for a while.

It's fantastic that we may have a solution that could give a good portion of us a life worth living again. But let's not loose sight of the cure!

I was explaining this new potential to my wife and her first comment was, "it's a good thing we already have come to terms with an infertile lifestyle. Your friends will still have to learn to deal with that".

Forgive me, I'm not trying to be negative, on the contrary. I think that although this new potential is fantastic, it is giving new insights into the problem. Might it not be a matter of adjusting the treatment to encompass our irregularity. We always have the possibility of using the contraceptive solution meantime.

I'm afraid that we'll find something that makes us feel better, and all the impetus / drive to really solve this problem will go away.

 

[demografx]

How much does the testosterone therapy cost you per month??

It has varied significantly based on insurance plans which I have changed since starting treatment. Currently, it's $45/month, but much lower last year.

what is ADHD?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attention-deficit_hyperactivity_disorder