[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

If confirmed by subsequent experiments, my hypothesis would have profound impacts on current theories of physics. Our understanding of magnetic force would be fundamentally changed. Electricity and magnetism would no longer be seen as the different sides of the same coin. Magnetism won't be seen as simply Electricity in motion anymore. Instead, it would be seen as a combination between electricity and gravity.
The electrohydodynamic balance I used here might be regarded as monumental as Foucault pendulum. It's simple in construction, but powerful in providing evidence of the things that has been suspected for a long time.

When I first learned as a kid that there is no magnetic monopole, I suspected that magnetism might be a composite phenomenon, unlike gravity and electricity. My suspicion got stronger when comparing the field of a magnet and electric dipole. But I didn't have a clue how to prove or disprove it.


Then I encountered a physics textbook in public library that explains how electromagnet around a current carrying wire works according to Edward Purcell's idea based on length contraction in special theory relativity. But I couldn't settle how to explain the asymmetric behavior between positively charged metal atoms and negatively charged electrons.

The idea of using ionic current in electrically conductive solutions came across my mind when I was working in a project in a remote area around 2008. I had plenty of rest/idle time there I can use for brainstorming. I intended to use salt solutions inside a water hose in place of copper wire like what is commonly found in demonstrations of electromagnetism. When I got home, I tried to realize the idea, only to find that the current is much too small to produce measurable effects.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

Fast forward, last year I designed the experiment replacing the hose with a container which has larger cross sectional area. It should produce higher electric current without having to use high voltage, which could introduce additional electrostatic force and affect the measurement.

At the time, I intended to use something similar to electroscope leaves to detect the Lorentz force produced by ionic current. The leaves would be connected to high voltage, which then act like charged particle as in the original thought experiment described in Purcell's book. I wasn't sure how high the voltage would be to show measurable effects.
It's only recently that I have the idea to use potential difference to measure the Lorentz force, which would eliminate the need to use high voltage.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

Today I planned to conduct the experiment, as the ordered salts have arrived. But I ended up spending a lot of time solving connection problems with the experimental setup. Loose connections could ruin the results, as I found out in my preliminary experiment. Fortunately, the problems seem to have been solved, so I can focus on the core subject of the experimentexperiment next time.

A switch was installed to short-circuit the cans to eliminate potential difference between them. It would let me reset the measured voltage to zero during the experiment using a single hand only, while my other hand is free to hold and direct the camera.

If you have any idea what kind of measurements I should take, please post it here.

For a start, I'll zero calibrate the equipment using the same solutions in both containers. It would reveal imbalance produced by other components, such as cables, cans, and ambient electric field.
Next, take some amount of the liquid from first container, and then pour it to the second container. It would create imbalance in conductivity of the fluids in each container. But since they are connected in series, they should have the same current, although smaller than before.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

The core experiment would measure potential difference between the cans produced by Lorentz forces from the moving ions in different solutions to the electrons in the cans below them.

Here's the list of  ions will used in the experiment, with mass/charge ratio.
Na+  23/1
K+    39/1
Mg2+   24.3/2
Cl-        35.45/(-1)

I chose monoatomic ions to reduce the effects of molecular dipole.
Some water molecules also dissociate to form H+, H3O+, and OH-.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

The idea of using ionic current in electrically conductive solutions came across my mind when I was working in a project in a remote area around 2008.

You may wonder what took me so long to realize how to solve the problem. Perhaps I was distracted by other scientific endeavors to reveal the missing pieces from my understanding of the universe. They were experiments in diffraction of light and behavior of microwave propagation. I wanted to demystify seemingly simple phenomena like double slit experiment, suspicious explanations of single slit experiment, also various other unsatisfactory explanations I found in text books like polarization and evanescent wave.

I thought that people would be interested in new experimental results contradicting currently accepted explanations, and encourage them to discuss alternative explanations. But I was wrong. It seems like people are more interested in information with a story behind them, instead of simply hard cold facts.

Schrodinger deviced a cat story to express his objection to Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics. I have my own story to describe the situation with magnetism, and its relationship with electricity and gravity.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

Here is my story of cosmic cats as a metaphor for relationships among electricity, magnetism, and gravitation.

In a neighborhood, people have been aware of 3 stray cats since a long time. They are called Electra, Magnus, and Gravitas. At first, people thought that they were distinct individual cats, unrelated to each other. But someday, some people started to realize that Electra and Magnus are closely related,
because they are often seen in the same time and place. Some of them even concluded that they are actually the same cat individual, just seen from different angles. Gravitas seemed to be unrelated to the other cats, despite people's efforts to find relationships among them.

A new discovery then reveals that Magnus is the son of Electra and Gravitas. It explains why he's often seen with her, but can also be found alone sometimes. It also explains why they have similar features.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

The core experiment would measure potential difference between the cans produced by Lorentz forces from the moving ions in different solutions to the electrons in the cans below them.

Here's the list of  ions will used in the experiment, with mass/charge ratio.
Na+  23/1
K+    39/1
Mg2+   24.3/2
Cl-        35.45/(-1)

I chose monoatomic ions to reduce the effects of molecular dipole.
Some water molecules also dissociate to form H+, H3O+, and OH-.

Let's go back to the main business.
When one Ampere electric current is applied, there's flow of electric charge as much as 1 Coulomb per second. In case of NaCl solution, 0.5 C/s in one direction from Na+ ions, and 0.5 C/s in the opposite direction from Cl- ions.
1 Coulomb is approximately 10 micro mole. Thus, the numbers above convert to 5 micro moles/second motion of each Na+ and Cl- ions going through a cross-section area of the solution, perpendicular to the current.
They correspond to 111 micrograms/second of Na+ and 177.25 micrograms/second of Cl-
The difference is -66.25 micrograms/second.
In case of KCl solution, the mass flow would be 195 micrograms/second of K+ and 177.25 micrograms/second of Cl-
The difference is +17.25 micrograms/second.
In case of MgCl2 solution, the mass flow would be 12.15 micrograms/second of Mg2+ and 177.25 micrograms/second of Cl-
The difference is -165.1 micrograms/second.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

The voltage shown in the Voltmeter of the experiment must be generated from these mass flow difference of the ions, considering that other factors are equally applied to both containers. But some factors may effectively reduce the voltage, such as adhesion, cohesion, molecular dipole, etc.

[paul cotter]

Those figures are not correct: 1 amp will transport ~23/96000 grams of sodium=240 μgram and for chlorine 35/96000= 365 μgrams.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

Those figures are not correct: 1 amp will transport ~23/96000 grams of sodium=240 μgram and for chlorine 35/96000= 365 μgrams.

Where do you get that conversion value from?

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

Here's the sketch of the experimental setup. I think this is so simple that anyone can replicate it.


In case it hasn't been obvious, the whole system should be electrically isolated from its environment. Including the ground below the cans.

A represents clamp Ampere meter in AC mode. V represents Voltmeter in DC millivolt mode.

By looking at how simple this device is, it's quite surprising that past scientists failed to demonstrate the relationship between magnetism, electricity, and gravity. But if we compare to how simple the Foucault pendulum is, and how it escaped from the imagination of geniuses like Galileo and Newton, this situation might be more understandable. Everyone has their own blind spots. It took me more than 25 years to make it happen.

[paul cotter]

Look up Michael Faraday's work on electrolysis. What happens in the case of sodium chloride electrolysis is more complicated than just ion transport: most of the action happens in the vicinity of the electrodes followed by slow diffusion of fresh ions into this region. There is also the complication of reaction products: sodium metal reacts with water to produce sodium hydroxide and hydrogen gas-the hydroxide ion being negatively charged will migrate towards the anode together with the chloride ion. At the anode the released chlorine will react with water to produce hydrochloric acid and hypochlorous acid.   

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

Look up Michael Faraday's work on electrolysis. What happens in the case of sodium chloride electrolysis is more complicated than just ion transport: most of the action happens in the vicinity of the electrodes followed by slow diffusion of fresh ions into this region. There is also the complication of reaction products: sodium metal reacts with water to produce sodium hydroxide and hydrogen gas-the hydroxide ion being negatively charged will migrate towards the anode together with the chloride ion. At the anode the released chlorine will react with water to produce hydrochloric acid and hypochlorous acid.   

I used alternating current. The frequency is 50 Hz. There's no noticable chemical reaction during my preliminary experiment, which lasted for around 30 minutes, although not run continuously.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

When we realize that magnetism is a combination of electricity and gravity, the term electromagnetic wave becomes redundant. It should be called magnetic wave, or electrogravitational wave instead.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

1 Coulomb is approximately 10 micro mole.

Here's the source.

In terms of the Avogadro constant (NA), one coulomb is equal to approximately 1.036*10−5 mol * NA elementary charges.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coulomb

[paul cotter]

I don't dispute the figures in your post #174. The normal equivalence used in electrochemistry is that the passage of 96000amps will transport 1 mole of a singly charged anion or cation: if you work it back that is roughly the same as that quoted in #174. If you are using ac then electrode corrosion and subsequent contamination will be an issue unless you have platinum electrodes. On the subject of magnetism I strongly dispute your claim of a gravitational component but I refuse to get into a long winded argument about this. Magnetism is very well understood: the magnetic field is the electric field as seen from a different frame of reference, likewise the electric field is the magnetic field as seen fro a different frame of reference.

[Origin]

When we realize that magnetism is a combination of electricity and gravity,

With a bizarre statement like that, we now realize (as if it wasn't already clear) that you have no idea what magnetism is.  I fear that when hamdani has added 100 more pages to this thread he will be no closer to understanding magnetism. 

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

On the subject of magnetism I strongly dispute your claim of a gravitational component but I refuse to get into a long winded argument about this.

My hypothesis that magnetism is related to gravity relies on the equivalence principle between gravity and inertia. My experimental setup was designed to specifically eliminate any difference between two fluid containers except the inertia of current carrying ions in them. Hence in my simple mind, this difference is the cause of observed potential difference between the bottom of the metal cans below those containers.
Do you have any problem with that equivalence principle?
Do you have any alternative explanation that can cause the potential difference?

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

Magnetism is very well understood: the magnetic field is the electric field as seen from a different frame of reference, likewise the electric field is the magnetic field as seen fro a different frame of reference.

The bottom of the metal cans are both stationary in the lab reference frame. What kind of field do you think has caused what I observed, which is a potential difference?

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

When we realize that magnetism is a combination of electricity and gravity,

With a bizarre statement like that, we now realize (as if it wasn't already clear) that you have no idea what magnetism is.  I fear that when hamdani has added 100 more pages to this thread he will be no closer to understanding magnetism. 

Which one is more bizzare in their statement about magnetism, me, you, or Feynman?