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Origin of magnetic force

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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Origin of magnetic force
« Reply #420 on: 22/12/2024 06:04:33 »
It seems like you've misunderstood my earlier posts.
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 02/07/2016 13:47:55
Here is the visualization of the second experiment, which start from the first as described before. If the charged particle is stationary to the wire, no magnetic force is received.



Next, the wire is zoomed to show the electrons and metal atoms inside.



From the picture above, the electrons inside the wire move to the left with speed v, but particle q doesn’t receive magnetic force.
Now if the wire is moved to the right with speed v, the speed of electrons becomes 0, while the speed of the metal atoms = v. It is shown that magnetic force F is produced downward.



The picture above is equivalent to the picture from previous post.



Here we can conclude that electron’s movement is not responded by the particle, while atom’s movement produces magnetic force to the particle. It seems that for a long time we had missed the difference between atoms and free electrons which cause electric current and produce magnetic force.
For the second experiment, we will study the effect of the movement of charged particles inside a conductor (or convector) toward the test particle. We will study the hypothesis that magnetic force is not only affected by the magnitude of electric charge that moves inside a conductor (or convector), but also affected by the mass of the particle.
Electric current in a copper wire is produced by the flow of electrons inside. The charge and mass of electrons are always the same, so we need some other particles as electric current producers to get reference. For that we will replace the conductor by a hose filled by electrolyte solution that contains ions, since ions are also electrically charged and have various masses. Some of electrolytic solutions that will be used are NaCl, H2SO4, HCl, CuSO4, FeCl3.

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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Origin of magnetic force
« Reply #421 on: 22/12/2024 06:13:51 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 30/08/2023 06:09:24
We can make a table showing the force experienced by the stationary test particle in various velocities of both positive and negative particles in the wire. I'll use standard Lorentz force to calculate the force, which states that
F = B.q.v
Where B is proportional to electric current in the wire, which depends on velocity difference between positive and negative particles in the wire.
v represents the velocity difference between the test particle and the wire. Since the test particle is stationary, it's merely determined by the velocity of positive particles in the wire.
It's assumed that all positive particles have uniform velocity. Negative particle has uniform velocity as well.

The first table below shows the value of electric current, which depends on the difference of velocity between positive and negative particle in the wire.
   v+   -4   -3   -2   -1   0    1    2    3    4
v-                             
-4       0    1    2    3    4    5    6    7    8
-3      -1    0    1    2    3    4    5    6    7
-2      -2   -1    0    1    2    3    4    5    6
-1      -3   -2   -1    0    1    2    3    4    5
 0      -4   -3   -2   -1    0    1    2    3    4
 1      -5   -4   -3   -2   -1    0    1    2    3
 2      -6   -5   -4   -3   -2   -1    0    1    2
 3      -7   -6   -5   -4   -3   -2   -1    0    1
 4      -8   -7   -6   -5   -4   -3   -2   -1    0

The second table below shows the velocity of the wire relative to test particle. It's determined solely by velocity of positive particle.
   v+   -4   -3   -2   -1   0   1   2   3   4
v-                             
-4      -4   -3   -2   -1   0   1   2   3   4
-3      -4   -3   -2   -1   0   1   2   3   4
-2      -4   -3   -2   -1   0   1   2   3   4
-1      -4   -3   -2   -1   0   1   2   3   4
 0      -4   -3   -2   -1   0   1   2   3   4
 1      -4   -3   -2   -1   0   1   2   3   4
 2      -4   -3   -2   -1   0   1   2   3   4
 3      -4   -3   -2   -1   0   1   2   3   4
 4      -4   -3   -2   -1   0   1   2   3   4

The third table shows the force experienced by test particle, which is simply the multiplication of each cell in both tables above.
   v+   -4   -3   -2   -1    0    1    2     3     4
v-                             
-4       0    -3   -4   -3    0    5   12   21   32
-3       4     0   -2   -2    0    4   10   18   28
-2       8     3    0   -1    0    3     8   15   24
-1      12    6    2    0    0    2     6   12   20
0       16    9    4    1    0    1     4     9   16
1       20   12   6    2    0    0     2     6   12
2       24   15   8    3    0   -1     0    3     8
3       28   18   10   4   0   -2    -2    0     4
4       32   21   12   5   0   -3    -4   -3     0
The numbers on the top rows in each table represent velocity of positively charged particles, while the numbers on the left most column in each table represent velocity of negatively charged particles
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Origin of magnetic force
« Reply #422 on: 22/12/2024 06:21:08 »
I'm thinking about filing a patent for my invention here. I asked ChatGPT for assistance.
What do I have to do to patent my invention?
Quote
To patent your invention, you need to follow these general steps. The process may vary depending on your country, but these are the typical stages:

1. Determine Patentability

Ensure your invention is novel, non-obvious, and useful.

Conduct a prior art search to check if similar inventions exist. You can search online patent databases like:

Google Patents

WIPO?s PATENTSCOPE

Your country?s patent office database (e.g., USPTO, EPO, IPO).




---

2. Prepare a Detailed Description

Create a comprehensive description of your invention, including:

Title

Purpose

How it works

Technical drawings or diagrams


Include claims that define the scope of your invention.



---

3. File a Patent Application

Decide whether to file:

A provisional patent application (PPA) (for temporary protection, gives you a year to file a full patent).

A non-provisional patent application (full patent).


Submit your application to the patent office in your country:

USPTO (United States)

EPO (European Union)

IPO (India)

WIPO (for international patents via the PCT system).




---

4. Work with a Patent Attorney (Optional)

Patent law can be complex, so consulting a patent attorney can help ensure your application is strong and meets all legal requirements.



---

5. Examination Process

The patent office will review your application and may ask for clarifications or modifications.

Be prepared for correspondence and potential rejections. You may need to amend claims or provide additional information.



---

6. Pay Fees

Pay the required filing, examination, and maintenance fees. Fee structures vary by country and the type of patent.



---

7. Receive Patent Approval

Once approved, your patent is granted, and you have exclusive rights to your invention for a specified time (usually 20 years from the filing date).



---

Additional Tips:

Protect your invention with non-disclosure agreements (NDAs) if discussing it with others before filing.

Consider the costs, as the process can be expensive (filing fees, attorney fees, etc.).

Use international patent systems (e.g., PCT) if you want protection in multiple countries.


Would you like help with any specific step or advice on patent offices?


The process still needs some refinements. So I guess I'm going to apply for provisional patent first.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Origin of magnetic force
« Reply #423 on: 22/12/2024 06:52:44 »
This can be used as a measurement method for chemical composition. It will be a complementary method for NIR analyzer, UV/vis analyzer, and electrochemical impedance spectroscopy.

What is Electrochemical Impedance Spectroscopy (EIS) and How Does it Work?
Quote
Hey Folks!  In this video we will be going over what is Electrochemical Impedance Spectroscopy (EIS) as well as how it works.  This is an introduction to Electrochemical Impedance Spectroscopy and is designed for people who are familiar with electrochemistry but are new to AC voltammetry techniques such as EIS.

Timestamps
00:00 - Intro
01:29 - What is Electrochemical Impedance Spectroscopy?
03:36 - Fourier Transform and what Impedance is
05:17 - The Bode Plot
05:46 - The Nyquist Plot
07:08 - Analogy for understanding EIS
08:24 - Why use EIS?
10:07 - How EIS data is used (modeling an electrochemical system)
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Origin of magnetic force
« Reply #424 on: 22/12/2024 09:15:57 »
The results in the last experiment has a pattern.
The first graph shows the voltage measurement against the weight/charge ratio of the salts.


The second graph shows the voltage measurement against the weight/charge ratio of the salts, when the charge of MgCl2 is "corrected" to make the graph linear.


The second graph shows the voltage measurement against the weight/charge ratio of the salts, when the molecular weight of MgCl2 is "corrected" to make the graph linear.

* Screenshot 2024-12-22 161020.png (27.16 kB, 837x518 - viewed 683 times.)

* Screenshot 2024-12-22 160945.png (28.16 kB, 843x531 - viewed 645 times.)

* Screenshot 2024-12-22 160903.png (27.96 kB, 829x549 - viewed 678 times.)
« Last Edit: 22/12/2024 09:23:50 by hamdani yusuf »
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Origin of magnetic force
« Reply #425 on: 22/12/2024 09:25:47 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 22/12/2024 06:21:08
What do I have to do to patent my invention?
Your national patent office should have a simple online form for filing a provisional patent. If not, use the UKPO. The important thing is to establish priority of invention in the broadest possible terms, and a provisional filed in any country does that. Then decide whether you are going to make any money from it. Talk to a prospective manufacturer under an NDA (use an online form or get a solicitor to draft one for you). If it looks profitable, get a patent attorney to draft and submit it, if it is your first patent - not cheap, but you will learn a lot from the PA.

Your national patent office website is the best source of information, not a chatbot.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Origin of magnetic force
« Reply #426 on: 22/12/2024 12:13:00 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 22/12/2024 09:25:47
Then decide whether you are going to make any money from it.
No. At least not directly. What's more important for me is to make more people be aware of this overlooked relationships between electricity, magnetism, and chemistry, which can possibly reveal the missing link with gravity. The more people working on this problem, the more likely it will be solved sooner rather than later.
« Last Edit: 22/12/2024 12:48:38 by hamdani yusuf »
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Offline paul cotter

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Re: Origin of magnetic force
« Reply #427 on: 25/12/2024 12:51:57 »
I owe Hamdani an apology, I completely missed his correct post #408, re interpretation of the magnetic field as an electric field.
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Origin of magnetic force
« Reply #428 on: 31/12/2024 11:29:40 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 22/12/2024 12:13:00
The more people working on this problem, the more likely it will be solved sooner rather than later.
Please remind me - what is the problem?
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Origin of magnetic force
« Reply #429 on: 01/01/2025 20:42:57 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 31/12/2024 11:29:40
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 22/12/2024 12:13:00
The more people working on this problem, the more likely it will be solved sooner rather than later.
Please remind me - what is the problem?
See the title.
And the OP.
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 02/07/2016 11:54:21
Nowadays most people explain daily electromagnetic phenomena using Maxwell’s theory, which was a summary and development of the thoughts of 19th century scientists like Gauss, Faraday, and Ampere. When it was realized that Maxwell’s theory is not compatible with Newton’s mechanics, Einstein chose to modify Newton’s mechanics to comply with Maxwell’s equations, hence established the SR theory. As time goes by, thermodynamics led Max Planck to start quantum theory which was later developed to explain microscopic world. But on macroscopic scale, its result is similar to Maxwell’s theory.
I guess that the incompatibility can be resolved by modifying or even replacing Maxwell’s theory, instead of Newton’s mechanics. One thing that I concern the most is about the origin of magnetic force. Maxwell’s theory implies that magnetism comes from moving electric charge. Magnetic field was introduced to explain how magnetic force works. The field was based on magnetic lines of force which were introduced by Faraday.
Basically, Maxwell’s theory explains magnetic force in two steps. First, moving electric charges produce magnetic fields around their trajectory, according to right hand rule. Then the field will do a magnetic force to any electric charge which moves relative to it. Therefore, this theory seems to have difficulties when explaining point to point interaction, especially regarding asymmetry between action and reaction. This kind of interaction is the very thing that should be explained by any fundamental physics theories like Newton’s gravity and Coulomb’s static electricity, since point is the simplest geometric element, and any other geometric forms are built from it.

As an alternative, Edward Purcell tried to explain electromagnetic force relativistically, here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relativistic_electromagnetism#The_origin_of_magnetic_forces.
There was shown that electric current in the wire is produced by the stream of positively charged particles, while common knowledge says that it is produced by the flow of electron which is negatively charged. If we see closer, it will be seen that positive and negative charges in the wire act asymmetrically.
« Last Edit: 02/01/2025 04:38:09 by hamdani yusuf »
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Origin of magnetic force
« Reply #430 on: 02/01/2025 05:21:25 »
It's often said that magnetic force on a charged particle is produced when electrically charged particle moves across a magnetic field, as described by Lorentz's force equation.
In most analyses of electromagnetism, the mass of the moving electric charges that produces the magnetic field is ignored, and assumed to be zero. This assumption is good enough for metal solenoids typically used in electromagnetic experiments, as the mass of electron is much smaller than the mass of the metal lattice.

Quote
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_magnet_and_conductor_problem#Background
Electromagnetic fields are not directly observable. The existence of classical electromagnetic fields can be inferred from the motion of charged particles, whose trajectories are observable. Electromagnetic fields do explain the observed motions of classical charged particles.

A strong requirement in physics is that all observers of the motion of a particle agree on the trajectory of the particle. For instance, if one observer notes that a particle collides with the center of a bullseye, then all observers must reach the same conclusion. This requirement places constraints on the nature of electromagnetic fields and on their transformation from one reference frame to another. It also places constraints on the manner in which fields affect the acceleration and, hence, the trajectories of charged particles.

Perhaps the simplest example, and one that Einstein referenced in his 1905 paper introducing special relativity, is the problem of a conductor moving in the field of a magnet. In the frame of the magnet, a conductor experiences a magnetic force. In the frame of a conductor moving relative to the magnet, the conductor experiences a force due to an electric field. The magnetic field in the magnet frame and the electric field in the conductor frame must generate consistent results in the conductor. At the time of Einstein in 1905, the field equations as represented by Maxwell's equations were properly consistent. Newton's law of motion, however, had to be modified to provide consistent particle trajectories.[7]
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Origin of magnetic force
« Reply #431 on: 02/01/2025 09:23:20 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 01/01/2025 20:42:57
There was shown that electric current in the wire is produced by the stream of positively charged particles,
"Conventional " current, in classical electromagnetism, flows from positive to negative. This gets the signs correct in Fleming, Ampere, Corkscrew and other Rules.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Origin of magnetic force
« Reply #432 on: 02/01/2025 12:23:26 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 02/01/2025 09:23:20
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 01/01/2025 20:42:57
There was shown that electric current in the wire is produced by the stream of positively charged particles,
"Conventional " current, in classical electromagnetism, flows from positive to negative. This gets the signs correct in Fleming, Ampere, Corkscrew and other Rules.
It seems like the Wikipedia article has been edited from when I referred to it in the OP.
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Origin of magnetic force
« Reply #433 on: 02/01/2025 13:14:35 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 02/01/2025 05:21:25
In most analyses of electromagnetism, the mass of the moving electric charges that produces the magnetic field is ignored, and assumed to be zero.
It's also pretty irrelevant as the drift velocity of the charge carriers is very low
Quote
The speed of the electrons in a typical copper wire is actually about 10 billion times slower than the speed of the signal
- say 0.2 mm/second. Much the same in an electrolyte - you can sometimes see the depletion layer slowly growing if one of the ions is colored.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Origin of magnetic force
« Reply #434 on: 03/01/2025 03:58:55 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 02/01/2025 13:14:35
It's also pretty irrelevant as the drift velocity of the charge carriers is very low
Does drift velocity have any effect on Lorentz' force?
What if the drift velocity is increased significantly, like using superconductor with small cross sectional area?
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Re: Origin of magnetic force
« Reply #435 on: 03/01/2025 04:14:51 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 02/01/2025 13:14:35
Quote
The speed of the electrons in a typical copper wire is actually about 10 billion times slower than the speed of the signal
- say 0.2 mm/second. Much the same in an electrolyte - you can sometimes see the depletion layer slowly growing if one of the ions is colored.

There's an interesting video investigating speed of electricity in a wire.
Why does WATER change the speed of electricity?
Quote
The electrons are back! This is the first of three videos discussing electricity - what is it, how does it work, how do we use it? This first installment talks about the speed of electricity and electrical signals in wires. Next up is Ohm's law, and what resistance really does in circuits, and third, I'll be taking another look at the experiment featured on Veritasium last year, building on the first two videos to explore the mechanism that couples the two long wires with a little more scrutiny. Enjoy!

Corrections and FAQ answers:
1) "When are the others coming out?" I planned to release all three of these videos on adjacent weeks, but the other two aren't done yet, and I wanted to release this one sooner to give the algorithm a kick in support of my last video from just a few days ago about FIRST Robotics - go check it out!
2) Pre-emptive clarification about the overly-philosophical ending: Sine waves are not the only orthogonal basis set that can be used to construct any function, so you could argue that any similar construction is arbitrary and math-only, and would STILL be indistinguishable from reality. That said, sine waves are really pretty (and can actually be used to solve equations that demonstrate propagation).
3) Microwaves! I've had a bunch of people ask about the "resonant frequency" of the water molecules (or any dielectric). This is exactly how your microwave works, and at this frequency (2.4 GHz I believe), the energy transfer from the field to the water molecule is most efficient.
4) What's the difference between this and coax, and velocity factor? In coax, the entire field is contained between the core and sheath, so the cable designer has COMPLETE control over the speed of propagation in the cable by choosing the dielectric insulation that the field has to pass through. This experiment I've set up is REALLY terrible at making sure the field has to interact with the water. There's probably a lot of "field leakage" I'm not dealing with. coax is amazing in it's ability to be controlled and uniform.
5) The frequency of flipping a switch: in the absolute most hand-wavey way possible if we assume that the ~40 nanosecond rise time for the signal (switch flip) is actually 1/4 of a sine wave (as in cut out of a wave, i said hand-wavey), then the relevant frequency would be ~6 MHz. In reality this is probably within an order-of-magnitude, but many additional frequencies are needed to reconstruct the exact shape of that rise, and I don't have a great intuition for which ones carry the most energy.
6) I did perform a "zero length" measurement to confirm that the scope channels were synchronized and the "send" and "receive" signals rise at the same time. I don't remember the offsets I measured right now, but they were much smaller than other errors in the system, like measuring the length of the wire!
7) I didn't realize at first that the pipe was at a bit of a slant, so the end the camera was looking at was only part full when the wire at the other end was already submerged. I don't even want to think about the weird physics problem of having water ADJACENT to a wire and trying to predict anything, so I only talked about the "empty" and "full" configurations.
8) ???
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Origin of magnetic force
« Reply #436 on: 03/01/2025 04:16:14 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 03/01/2025 04:14:51
Why does WATER change the speed of electricity?
This is basically the same principle used in Guided Wave Radar Level sensor.
GWR Working Principles Video
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Origin of magnetic force
« Reply #437 on: 03/01/2025 11:14:58 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 03/01/2025 03:58:55
Does drift velocity have any effect on Lorentz' force?
What if the drift velocity is increased significantly, like using superconductor with small cross sectional area?
Since the Lorentz force depends on the charge moving, it is reasonable to assume that the faster it moves, the greater the force.  F = q(E + v x B).
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Re: Origin of magnetic force
« Reply #438 on: 03/01/2025 12:26:12 »
For the individual charge carrier, yes. But if the total current remains the same in different conductor scenarios the B field will be unchanged.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Origin of magnetic force
« Reply #439 on: 04/01/2025 08:34:39 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 03/01/2025 11:14:58
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 03/01/2025 03:58:55
Does drift velocity have any effect on Lorentz' force?
What if the drift velocity is increased significantly, like using superconductor with small cross sectional area?
Since the Lorentz force depends on the charge moving, it is reasonable to assume that the faster it moves, the greater the force.  F = q(E + v x B).
The problem is that v is relative. What is it relative to?

Quote from: paul cotter on 03/01/2025 12:26:12
For the individual charge carrier, yes. But if the total current remains the same in different conductor scenarios the B field will be unchanged.
« Last Edit: 04/01/2025 08:49:18 by hamdani yusuf »
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