[nilak]

 So stop acting like nerds with glasses and scientist, rather repent, and thou shalt be saved.

No offence but I think you are the "odd" one here.

[alancalverd]

Should you make the faithful suffer the facts of science?

Everyone suffers from various factual causes, including god's wonderful creations of famine, earthquake, disease and congenital deformity. Some pretend it's part of a plan for which they should be grateful and praiseful, others try to put it right, in defiance of the Almighty. Science is a useful tool for fixing such horrors as the just and merciful creator of all things inflicts on his children for his own perverted amusement - nobody else thinks congenital syphilis is funny.

[clueless (OP)]

Did pope pollute air, water and soil? No. Did Jesus invent weapons of mass destruction? No. All this, and more, all in the name of progress. Progress? What progress? Technology will fail, if it hasn’t already. There isn’t an infinite ocean of oil in the ground, as scientists would have us believe. And who said that the Sun will last for another 5 billion years? Scientists? And I’m supposed to believe them after all they have invented? I watch Oprah on TV for crying out loud! The thirst we have for knowledge will be our downfall. Computers will fail. The OS of my computer is almost but dead already. Cars and planes will be parked forever because there will be no more oil. And that is just the beginning... 

You want to know what true progress is? True progress is, when you put a large turkey in the oven for Thanksgiving Day. When your wife respects you even though you are her husband. When Cuba doesn’t aim their ICBM’s at America, rather casts aside communism and celebrates Christmas. Now that’s true progress. Americans are shaking like a leaf all because of atheist science sponsored by communism, which is supposed to save us, but it will probably be our demise, and quite possibly ELE because of a simple misunderstanding or one dictator.

Jesus is the greatest scientist and genius there is, with an IQ of 2009. And when He was amongst us, did he pass along the knowledge he has, being all-knowing and all? No. Did he give us cellular phones? No. Did he told us how to build nuclear submarines? No. Did he have a wife? No. He was a carpenter. That’s all. A carpenter. Why? Because, in the end, simplicity is the greatest achievement and the most important discovery for scientists there is. That and ignorance which is bliss. Imagine. Sitting in a chair at a nice table carved by Jesus while you eat your dinner. Jesus knew it, while struggling with His demons. He knew that science is Inferno for human sinners. He knew that scientists are being taken by the dark side, selling their soul to Beelzebub for another breakthrough that will pollute our environment even more, slowly turning into demons blinded by science, because of our sad nature and volatile nature of wives. You are not being farsighted. You do not see the big picture. In fact, because of the complexity and quantum mechanics, scientist have the greatest myopia there is. You forgot about the little things. About celebrating Christmas with our loved ones. About love for our enemies. Even though we resist our wives. And most of all, you forgot about Jesus. And Why!? Because of the USS Enterprise, the Noah’s Ark of modern era, which will abandon Earth just as a rat abandons a sinking ship. Earth is our home, not Qo'noS. So instead of gazing at the stars with that silly look in your eyes, perhaps you should value our home above all, an unpolluted Earth, all those blooming meadows with myriads of butterflies. If religion had stopped the science before it started, Isadora Duncan would not die in an air-polluting car and Yesenin would not take his life out of grief.

Dear scientists, though you mean well, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. So cast aside your doubts, fears, numbers, math, physics, quantum mechanics etc. and be but sheep of our Lord, the good shepherd. The greatest arrogance of men, in particular that of scientists, is that we can control nature, and yet it is the other way around. Just forget about science, because you will forget it anyhow when you grow old and acquire dementia and Alzheimer. Instead of holding on to differential equations, which perplex the hell out of me, perhaps you should pick up a bonny flower and give it to your love, even if she’s your wife.     

And don’t be afraid of earthquakes, famine, diseases, war, etc., for God works in mysterious ways, and blessed are those who suffer persecution for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of the heavens.

I, clueless, who knows about science nothing really, have spoken. Thanks for listening.

[nilak]

Dear scientists, though you mean well, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

I'm sorry , but hate this aphorism. 
My philosophy is that the good intentions are the only thing that makes a person  good. It doesn't matter if it fails. If the intentions were good, that is what matters for me, it is good person. Apparently that is Kant philosohy.

This is why "it takes religion for a good man to do bad things."

Btw,  how are your intentions ?

[alancalverd]

Did pope pollute air, water and soil? No. Did Jesus invent weapons of mass destruction?

(a) neither is or claimed to be god and (b) they seem to have had some involvement in the Conquistadores, Crusades, Inquisition, slaughter of the Cathars, various pogroms, organised crime in Ireland, and the election of an illiterate pro-life fundamentalist lunatic to the Presidency of the United States. And every animal pollutes its environment. 

And don’t be afraid of earthquakes, famine, diseases, war, etc., for God works in mysterious ways, and blessed are those who suffer persecution for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of the heavens.

Misquoting a famous rabbi is one thing, evidence is quite another.

[clueless (OP)]

Well everybody has an opinion when it comes to God. And who said I was being serious? If I am a character it does not mean I have character. Wait a second. That was a shot at me. I guess I’ll just put myself in scientists’ capable hands and say adios to Jesus. Perhaps not. 

(...) Btw,  how are your intentions ?

My good attentions are doing quite well actually. I myself am a bit depressed. But thanks for asking.

Misquoting a famous rabbi is one thing, evidence is quite another.

Evidence? Who needs evidence? Anthony Peaks practically proved that we are holograms. I myself like to think that we aren’t, even though faith, belief and sweet little lies are hardly evidence. And if everything Oprah said is evidence, truth, and nothing but the truth so help me God, I am boarding USS Voyager heading for the Delta Quadrant.

[puppypower]

If you do the genealogy of the bible, Creation times out to be about 6000 years go. If you look at the scientific carbon dated data from archeology, this 6000 year time frame, coordinates with the invention of writing. Genesis was the first scientific publication. It was the first unified theory of cosmology, earth science and life. These ancient theories may not withstand the tests of modern science, but neither do any of the science theories of 200 years ago. I am not sure why only these roots of science are taboo reading.The ancients assumed a model of physical and biology evolution with a logical sequence of integrated events. Modern science assumes a more disjointed model governed by chaos. Which framework is correct at the conceptual level?

Consider the significance of the invention of writing. Say you had to go to a lectures at school, where there is no written language. All that you can do is listen to the professor, while not being able to take notes or have take home study materials. Without writing, there is no good way for this learn knowledge to be the same for all. Different people will different hear things or parts of the lecture. Different people will remember the same things, differently, and different people will forget at different rates. The result is it would hard to get the entire group to agree on what they heard over the long term of tests. The knowledge from the lecture will diverge and even shrink with time. The net affect is people would forget and most knowledge might be generational, at best. Civilization might appear, but it would abort, as the working creative knowledge of the fathers, atrophies in the children, and they forget, and return to pre-human instincts. 

With the invention of writing, there is now a way to record data and the pivotal human ideas, so everyone can study, reinforce, refresh and become more sheltered from the atrophy of memory. This allows civilization to stick and evolve.

The question becomes, how does this impact human consciousness? For one thing, with writing knowledge persisting, there will a loss of instinct. Before writing, forgetting allows everyone to default back to instinct and old habits; prehuman. But with writing, there is a cultural way to reinforce the needs of culture; civilization now persists. With writing, will power and choice will increase, apart from instinct. Instead of eating when hungry, like our instincts may say, we practice willpower, and store the grains. We cannot forget or deny this path, since it is written. Free will begins, as choices apart from natural instincts.

In the beginning was the Word and the word was God!

The word is connected to the invention of writing. God appears to humans with the invention of writing; God was the word. The reason God appears is repression of instinct, due to written language carved stone, will increase the human brain potential. For example, if you are hungry, your mind and body will become more agitated as the potential in the brain increases. If the written words says you can't eat, this repression becomes stronger with time. This is needed for civilization, but it adversely impacts the individual; start to project.

Civilization will require the members stick to the written plan, with instincts more and more repressed, since it can't naturally forget. The first written knowledge is practical knowledge; building, storage, commerce, etc. The impact of the repression of instinct, is impulse and projection. This is called paradise. Repression is causing instinctive potential, which is harnessed in productive ways.   

New written rules of good and evil appear, to help people differentiate the most suitable paths, for the needs of civilization. But this causes further repression of natural instinct, since natural outlets become increasingly dammed. Creationism is witness to this change in the human brain and the pitfalls that appear as instinct is repressed. One only needs to understand symbolism to translate this data.

[nilak]

    Perhaps you've noticed that theories evolved from simple to extreme complexity, from a basic level towards a explaining fundamental level. You still think the first scientific publication reflects the truth ?

    If you have free will you can decide whether something seems good or bad. If you follow religion you think faith is the good thing and decide  to follow faith not to think on your own. If you follow faith, you are not allowed to think on your own and to say whether something seems good or bad. Then, where is your free will ?
    Once you follow faith there is no free will anymore, you simply follow the scripture (of course in reality you can't).

    If I want to decide whether to follow the scripts or my own judgement, how do I know I've made the right decision because it is me who needs to decide this ? (And you think those who made wrong decisions are guilty ? That is ridiculous).

[clueless (OP)]

(...) If I want to decide whether to follow the scripts or my own judgement, how do I know I've made the right decision because it is me who needs to decide this ?

Don't look at me. I am clueless.

Say, Nilak, how about we hang out and talk about nothing rather than talk about everything? The latter sounds a bit like megalomania whilst nothing sounds great to me at the moment. I can't take this anymore. My head is about to explode. So, what is the cure? Budweiser of course. Unlike religion and science, the beer doesn't give you headache, if you have one beer only, just one at a time. Still, no pain, no gain. I speak from experience. But if you think that I'm going to suffer all the time, best think again. It appears, I can be dumb and happy too!

[nilak]

(...) If I want to decide whether to follow the scripts or my own judgement, how do I know I've made the right decision because it is me who needs to decide this ?

Don't look at me. I am clueless.

Say, Nilak, how about we hang out and talk about nothing rather than talk about everything? The latter sounds a bit like megalomania whilst nothing sounds great to me at the moment. I can't take this anymore. My head is about to explode. So, what is the cure? Budweiser of course. Unlike religion and science, the beer doesn't give you headache, if you have one beer only, just one at a time. Still, no pain, no gain. I speak from experience. But if you think that I'm going to suffer all the time, best think again. It appears, I can be dumb and happy too!

Speaking of beer... Religion is like a drug. It offers you comfort and false freedom but it takes you the real freedom of thinking. It makes you happy but also doesn't let you enjoy things you might like to do.

I'm sorry I've made you angry.  Remember, I also feel disappointed I couldn't convince you, as well.
I'm not even trying to convince you that you are definitely wrong. All I want you to do is to realize that there is a chance you might be wrong.

[Ethos_]

I'm not even trying to convince you that you are definitely wrong. All I want you to do is to realize that there is a chance you might be wrong.

Searching out our errors and understanding them is great therapy and prepares us for new insight into many mysteries. If we do not seek out our personal errors, we are prepared to learn nothing.

[nilak]

I'm not even trying to convince you that you are definitely wrong. All I want you to do is to realize that there is a chance you might be wrong.

Searching out our errors and understanding them is great therapy and prepares us for new insight into many mysteries. If we do not seek out our personal errors, we are prepared to learn nothing.

Yes but he is starting with the idea that creationism is definitely true fact. This means when he searches for errors he looks somewere else not in the idea of creationism.
For example in the past we had the idea that newtonian mechanics was correct but some scientists had some doubts and they turned out to be justified. Now we think relativity is correct, but still there is a chance it might not be.

[Ethos_]

Yes but he is starting with the idea that creationism is definitely true fact. This means when he searches for errors he looks somewere else not in the idea of creationism.

I wasn't directing my observations specifically at you Nilak, error is common to us all. I think you may have misunderstood to whom I was directing these observations. For the greater part, you and I agree.

[clueless (OP)]

Speaking of beer... Religion is like a drug. It offers you comfort and false freedom but it takes you the real freedom of thinking. It makes you happy but also doesn't let you enjoy things you might like to do.

My bad. Religion does not give me headache. Science does. Still, religious fanatics give me headache as well. I guess Einstein got to me regarding relativity.

[GoC]

   Science can neither prove nor disprove the existence of a God or many Gods. In science our best tool is mathematics. Mathematics suggests the Bible used in the west is inaccurate. But that is not proof either way. Can we design perfection from imperfection? I do not believe in the existence of witches, warlocks, the devil, magic or God. I can only suggest after we die I suspect no one will be surprised.

[clueless (OP)]

Can we design perfection from imperfection?

Of course we can. Just use eraser. Remove 'im' and voilà, you have perfection.

[nilak]

Can we design perfection from imperfection?

Of course we can. Just use eraser. Remove 'im' and voilà, you have perfection.

It is usually an argument against creationism. There is evidence of improvement over extremely long periods of time time, in the theory of evolution. A creator would've correct the design errors before choosing the final version.
Anyway I see perfection only as a mathematical concept for solving problems.

[alancalverd]

    Can we design perfection from imperfection?

No need - evolution does it for us. Compare this year's flu virus with last year's, or an Airbus 380 with a Wright Flyer.

Whether driven by natural trial and error or human design, stuff evolves by quasi-continuous optmisation. As the environment is inherently unstable and unpredictable, perfection is not usefully definable.

[GoC]

  Life can bring order and improve order out of ciaos but eventually ciaos will win.

[Alex Dullius Siqueira]

Perfection is everything there is not...