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  4. Can Planck's law curve be matched to Rayleigh-Jean's law curve like this?
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Can Planck's law curve be matched to Rayleigh-Jean's law curve like this?

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Offline hamdani yusuf

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Re: Can Planck's law curve be matched to Rayleigh-Jean's law curve like this?
« Reply #100 on: 16/01/2024 13:12:51 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 16/01/2024 10:07:22
None of which changes the dimensions of h or ħ : joule.second. 2π is a dimensionless constant.
Radian is indeed a dimensionless unit.
When you have the light frequency in radian/second unit instead of Hertz, you can multiply it with ħ instead of h to get the energy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radian
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The unit was formerly an SI supplementary unit and is currently a dimensionless SI derived unit
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Can Planck's law curve be matched to Rayleigh-Jean's law curve like this?
« Reply #101 on: 16/01/2024 17:38:11 »
radian/sec is not a frequency but a rate of change of angle or heading. A "standard rate 1 turn" in an airplane is 0.0524 radian/second.
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Offline hamdani yusuf

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Re: Can Planck's law curve be matched to Rayleigh-Jean's law curve like this?
« Reply #102 on: 17/01/2024 10:30:29 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 16/01/2024 17:38:11
radian/sec is not a frequency but a rate of change of angle or heading. A "standard rate 1 turn" in an airplane is 0.0524 radian/second.
Perhaps you should stick to commonly used definition of any concepts, unless you have a strong reason not to do so.
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The radian per second (symbol: rad⋅s−1 or rad/s) is the unit of angular velocity in the International System of Units (SI). The radian per second is also the SI unit of angular frequency (symbol ω, omega). The radian per second is defined as the angular frequency that results in the angular displacement increasing by one radian every second.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radian_per_second
« Last Edit: 17/01/2024 14:40:09 by hamdani yusuf »
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Offline hamdani yusuf

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Re: Can Planck's law curve be matched to Rayleigh-Jean's law curve like this?
« Reply #103 on: 17/01/2024 10:33:19 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 14/01/2024 13:17:25
h/2π = ħ is still joule.sec but 2π turns up in so many calculations that it is simply a more compact way of writing equations.
What do you think is the unit of ħ?
What's its value?
« Last Edit: 17/01/2024 11:22:27 by hamdani yusuf »
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Can Planck's law curve be matched to Rayleigh-Jean's law curve like this?
« Reply #104 on: 17/01/2024 12:03:57 »
Nothing to do with what I think. It is defined as   

h = 6.62607015?10−34 J⋅Hz−1, so ħ = 1.054571817...?10−34 J⋅s or thereabouts.

I can't apologise for the irrationality of π.
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Offline hamdani yusuf

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Re: Can Planck's law curve be matched to Rayleigh-Jean's law curve like this?
« Reply #105 on: 17/01/2024 14:43:33 »
An antenna is oscillating at 1 billion radian per second. What's the energy of its photon?
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Offline Origin

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Re: Can Planck's law curve be matched to Rayleigh-Jean's law curve like this?
« Reply #106 on: 17/01/2024 15:22:25 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 17/01/2024 14:43:33
An antenna is oscillating at 1 billion radian per second. What's the energy of its photon?
Seriously?  What do you think the energy of a photon is from an antenna oscillating at 57.3 billion degrees per second?  Does the question even make sense to you?
« Last Edit: 17/01/2024 15:28:23 by Origin »
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Offline hamdani yusuf

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Re: Can Planck's law curve be matched to Rayleigh-Jean's law curve like this?
« Reply #107 on: 18/01/2024 02:13:36 »
Quote from: Origin on 17/01/2024 15:22:25
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 17/01/2024 14:43:33
An antenna is oscillating at 1 billion radian per second. What's the energy of its photon?
Seriously?  What do you think the energy of a photon is from an antenna oscillating at 57.3 billion degrees per second?  Does the question even make sense to you?
If it wasn't obvious to you yet, I referred to the electric field in the antenna.
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Can Planck's law curve be matched to Rayleigh-Jean's law curve like this?
« Reply #108 on: 18/01/2024 16:09:44 »
The question doesn't make sense. 109 rad/sec is a rate of rotation, so presumably we are looking at a betatron, not an antenna. The electron energy, and hence the energy of any photons emitted, depends on the radius of the torus.

I may have time to do the calculation later, but the dog needs a walk!

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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Can Planck's law curve be matched to Rayleigh-Jean's law curve like this?
« Reply #109 on: 18/01/2024 16:29:16 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 18/01/2024 16:09:44
109 rad/sec is a rate of rotation,
Not necessarily.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angular_frequency
In which case the answer isn't hard to calculate.
But I don't see any point.
Certainly not any point that justifies the thread necromancy.
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Can Planck's law curve be matched to Rayleigh-Jean's law curve like this?
« Reply #110 on: 18/01/2024 17:22:32 »
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The unit hertz (Hz) is dimensionally equivalent, but by convention it is only used for frequency f, never for angular frequency ω. This convention is used to help avoid the confusion that arises when dealing with quantities such as frequency and angular quantities because the units of measure (such as cycle or radian) are considered to be one and hence may be omitted when expressing quantities in SI units.

So why make life difficult by ignoring a convention?

Anyway I get 10-7 eV
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Offline hamdani yusuf

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Re: Can Planck's law curve be matched to Rayleigh-Jean's law curve like this?
« Reply #111 on: 19/01/2024 04:30:46 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 18/01/2024 16:09:44
The question doesn't make sense. 109 rad/sec is a rate of rotation, so presumably we are looking at a betatron, not an antenna. The electron energy, and hence the energy of any photons emitted, depends on the radius of the torus.

I may have time to do the calculation later, but the dog needs a walk!


Photonic interpretation for Planck's law states that hf is the energy of one photon. Thus radius of the
torus or antenna doesn't affect photon energy, as long as the frequency can be kept the same.
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Offline hamdani yusuf

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Re: Can Planck's law curve be matched to Rayleigh-Jean's law curve like this?
« Reply #112 on: 19/01/2024 05:28:50 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 18/01/2024 02:13:36
Quote from: Origin on 17/01/2024 15:22:25
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 17/01/2024 14:43:33
An antenna is oscillating at 1 billion radian per second. What's the energy of its photon?
Seriously?  What do you think the energy of a photon is from an antenna oscillating at 57.3 billion degrees per second?  Does the question even make sense to you?
If it wasn't obvious to you yet, I referred to the electric field in the antenna.
For those who are not familiar with electronics in radio communications, I can give a more visually accessible example. A bar magnet is rotated with axis perpendicular to the magnetic field inside the magnet. The angular speed is 3000 rpm (rotation per minute) , which is typical for industrial motors. The question is the same, what is the photon energy radiated by the rotating magnet?
« Last Edit: 19/01/2024 06:20:01 by hamdani yusuf »
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Can Planck's law curve be matched to Rayleigh-Jean's law curve like this?
« Reply #113 on: 19/01/2024 11:38:54 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 19/01/2024 04:30:46
Photonic interpretation for Planck's law states that hf is the energy of one photon. Thus radius of the
torus or antenna doesn't affect photon energy, as long as the frequency can be kept the same.

But it does affect the energy of the electron that generates the photon. It all gets a bit complicated as it's quite easy to get an electron up to 0.9c in a betatron, at which point the relativistic corrections become very significant. 
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Offline hamdani yusuf

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Re: Can Planck's law curve be matched to Rayleigh-Jean's law curve like this?
« Reply #114 on: 19/01/2024 14:52:04 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 19/01/2024 11:38:54
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 19/01/2024 04:30:46
Photonic interpretation for Planck's law states that hf is the energy of one photon. Thus radius of the
torus or antenna doesn't affect photon energy, as long as the frequency can be kept the same.

But it does affect the energy of the electron that generates the photon. It all gets a bit complicated as it's quite easy to get an electron up to 0.9c in a betatron, at which point the relativistic corrections become very significant. 
It supposed to affect the number of photons radiated by the antenna.
How does relativistic corrections affect the photon frequency, and its energy?
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Can Planck's law curve be matched to Rayleigh-Jean's law curve like this?
« Reply #115 on: 19/01/2024 15:02:30 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 19/01/2024 05:28:50
The question is the same, what is the photon energy radiated by the rotating magnet?
Small.
3000 RPM is 50Hz so the photon energy is 50 times Planck's constant.

That's high school maths. Why have you reopened a long-dead thread to ask about it?
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Can Planck's law curve be matched to Rayleigh-Jean's law curve like this?
« Reply #116 on: 19/01/2024 15:05:01 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 19/01/2024 11:38:54
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 19/01/2024 04:30:46
Photonic interpretation for Planck's law states that hf is the energy of one photon. Thus radius of the
torus or antenna doesn't affect photon energy, as long as the frequency can be kept the same.

But it does affect the energy of the electron that generates the photon. It all gets a bit complicated as it's quite easy to get an electron up to 0.9c in a betatron, at which point the relativistic corrections become very significant. 
Earth calling Alan.
He's not talking about a betatron.

On one hand, that's a pity because it's more interesting.
On the other hand, it may be just as well because I think he'd make a mess of it.
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Can Planck's law curve be matched to Rayleigh-Jean's law curve like this?
« Reply #117 on: 19/01/2024 17:29:24 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 19/01/2024 14:52:04
It supposed to affect the number of photons radiated by the antenna.
Nonsense. It affects the energy of the photons, not the number. More electrons -> more photons, electrons oscillating faster -> higher photon frequency and E = hf
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How does relativistic corrections affect the photon frequency, and its energy?
You need to apply relativistic corrections to the electron velocity as you increase its kinetic energy. If energy E gives it a speed of 0.9c, 2E won't make it travel at 1.8c,
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Can Planck's law curve be matched to Rayleigh-Jean's law curve like this?
« Reply #118 on: 19/01/2024 17:32:15 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 19/01/2024 15:05:01
He's not talking about a betatron.

He's talking about the angular speed of an electron. What else would you call a device that makes electrons orbit at a constant 109radians per second?
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Offline Eternal Student

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Re: Can Planck's law curve be matched to Rayleigh-Jean's law curve like this?
« Reply #119 on: 19/01/2024 22:15:06 »
Hi.

For the oscillating electron in the antennae:
I'm making  109   radians/sec   --->   frequency of 159 MHz.    That's the top end of the radio frequencies, maybe early microwave.
Energy of a photon  ≈  1.05 x  1025  Joules    =   6.6 x 10-7  eV
and I think @alancalverd  suggested  10-7   eV.

I think you can get electrons to oscillate in an ordinary metal antenna at about this rate.   If you go much faster you can start getting reflection of the electrons from the crystal lattice and stuff happens.   I'm not an engineer but I believe the antenna gets hot and you end up with a spread of frequencies released rather than a clear emission at one frequency.

@Bored chemist   seems to have done the rotating magnet and I agree with that answer.

A slightly more interesting question for the rotating magnet is as follows:
    In open space, this rotating magnet is emitting radiation and thus losing energy.    Where is that energy coming from?  If the rotating magnet reduces its (rotational) k.e.  - where is the torque coming from that makes that happen?

Best Wishes.
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