The Naked Scientists
  • Login
  • Register
  • Podcasts
      • The Naked Scientists
      • eLife
      • Naked Genetics
      • Naked Astronomy
      • In short
      • Naked Neuroscience
      • Ask! The Naked Scientists
      • Question of the Week
      • Archive
      • Video
      • SUBSCRIBE to our Podcasts
  • Articles
      • Science News
      • Features
      • Interviews
      • Answers to Science Questions
  • Get Naked
      • Donate
      • Do an Experiment
      • Science Forum
      • Ask a Question
  • About
      • Meet the team
      • Our Sponsors
      • Site Map
      • Contact us

User menu

  • Login
  • Register
  • Home
  • Help
  • Search
  • Tags
  • Recent Topics
  • Login
  • Register
  1. Naked Science Forum
  2. On the Lighter Side
  3. New Theories
  4. A New Theory of Electromagnetic Radiation and Gravity
« previous next »
  • Print
Pages: [1]   Go Down

A New Theory of Electromagnetic Radiation and Gravity

  • 16 Replies
  • 5386 Views
  • 0 Tags

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline McQueen (OP)

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • 763
  • Activity:
    0%
  • Thanked: 18 times
    • https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php
A New Theory of Electromagnetic Radiation and Gravity
« on: 13/02/2017 01:56:36 »
Gravity, according to Neo-Classical Physics ( Gestalt Aether Theory) is due to gauge interactions of electrons within the atom orbiting the nucleus , that involve the emission and absorption of 'virtual' photons. Often these are self interactions, an electron might emit a photon and then almost instantaneously re-absorb the same photon. These 'virtual' photons might be thought of as ordinary photons except for the extremely short time over which the interactions take place, which is < 10-15 s. In this way the Laws of the Conservation of energy are hoodwinked into the impression that nothing has happened. Thus at the sub-atomic level events can take place so fast or with so little energy involved, that at the macro level of the world we live in these events to all purposes, escape notice. However, it is what happens outside the atom that is really of interest.
 
 Take a look at any smart mobile phone and it is possible to see that the phone is capable of processing data at the rate of several gigabits per second. Imagine what the word process means; collecting input data, processing that data and storing or outputting the result. Now look at the humble electron! Compared to the mobile phone the distances over which an electron has to oscillate are miniscule! It should be fairly obvious that an electron can easily oscillate at several hundreds of terahertz per second! What does this mean ? It means that the fuzzy definition of electromagnetic radiation hitherto accepted as fact, namely that in some cases the electron actually absorbs and emits electrons but that in the majority of others the radiation is in the form of an electromagnetic wave that is reflected off the atom. For instance take the case of someone looking out of a window on a sunny day at a beautiful lawn. Quantum Mechanics will tell you that what is seen is merely a reflected electromagnetic wave. Neo-Classical physics (or Gestalt Aether Theory) states that the electrons within the atoms of the grass lawn are oscillating at the rate of 600 THz (6 x 10 14) approx. and emitting photons at a similar rate. THUS the term frequency that quantum mechanics treats as an abstract term, is a very real term in Neo-Classical physics, denoting that green light is made up of a line of photons emitted at the rate of 600 THz by receptive electrons within the atoms in the blades of grass. Thus Neo-Classical Physics (Gestalt Aether Theory) states that ALL changes in the energy states of the electron are through the emission and absorption of photons. There is no sometimes particle , sometimes wave interpretation, every interaction involving electrons is due to emission or absorption of photons.
 
 Having established that photons are emitted and absorbed at phenomenal rates. It is time to return to the first moments of the Big Bang ! Although it is generally accepted that the Big Bang was not a bang in the accepted sense of an explosion but that it involved a rapid inflation or expansion, opinions is almost unanimous that light must have been present also. It is almost a corollary that if matter was present light (or rather photons) must have been present also, although light might not at this early stage of the Universe have been able to propagate. The question is what happened to all that light, look at the ratio; for every atom of matter, photons were being emitted at the rate of hundreds of Terahertz per second (1012) per second. What happened to those photons ? They could not have escaped over the borders of the Universe because by definition nothing exists outside the Universe, so they must have been contained in some way within the Universe. Most of the readers here will be familiar with the Neo-Classical Physics (Gestalt Aether Theory) model of the photon and will be aware that it resembles a di-pole that can be oriented in any direction and has the capability of storing energy. This particular structure for the photons also means that photons can join together either in parallel or in series and it is presumed that this is what happened.  For those interested in the box is given a brief explanation of the structure of the photon according to Neo-classical physics ( Gestalt Aether Theory):
Quote
According to Neo-Classical theory the electron is a charged particle, whose energy is mediated by the photon. What could be more natural than that the way in which this energy exchange is affected, is achieved is through the electron emitting or absorbing bursts of electrical energy ? 

The pulses of energy emitted by the electron are separated by  distances that are small enough to exclude atoms or molecules, since no atom or molecules can exist in the spaces between the pulses of emitted energy they make an ideal di-electric. This gives to the photon a capacitor like aspect together with the ability to store energy for long periods of time.  These bursts of electrical energy are polarised, resulting in the formation of a dipole, the existence of a di-pole formation in turn results in the formation of a solenoidal field existing around the photon, this solenoidal field is what gives the photon its wave characteristic. 

Thus the picture of the photon that emerges is of a di-pole particle.
It can now be easily verified that this model of the photon accounts for all of the properties of the photon:
1.      The photon has no mass.
2.      The photon is never at rest.
3.      The photon is electrically neutral
4.      The photon always travels at the speed of light c. in a vacuum.
5.      The photon retains its energy intact over huge distances until it is absorbed by another electron.
6.      The photon possesses both wave like and particle like properties.
7.      The photon can manifest in trillions of different frequencies energies and wavelengths.
The electron emits bursts of energy that form small packet or quanta of energy, that travel at the speed of light, that have no mass, that deliver or take away energy and thus act as mediators of the electron energy, that such a mechanism allows for the existence of trillions of wave-lengths and associated frequencies and so on.

 As the Universe continued to expand the network of linked photons expand with the Universe, as the expansion went on the individual energy of the photons was spread out among the network of linked photons, till eventually they reached such a low state of energy ( about 10-45 eV ) that they for all practical purposes ceased to exist! Because of this extremely low energy it was possible for this linked network of photons that permeated the entire Universe, to exist for practically ever, with life times similar to that of the proton or the electron. These 'virtual photons' f the virtual photon aether were almost stationary dipole particles with which no matter would or could interact, thus they could travel through matter as if it did not exist. Eventually when all of the Universe was full of this linked network of photons, light began to propagate in the way that is familiar to us today. When an electron within an atom emits a real photon the photons of the virtual photon aether, line up into a line whose ends rest on infinity and the energy of the real photon travels along this line of linked photons.
 
 
But what is the actual mechanism by which light propagates in the neo-classical theory? Light propagates as follows. The ‘virtual photons’ of the Aether which incidentally resemble a field of to all purposes stationary di-poles, are oriented at random until a real photon is emitted by an electron, when this happens the ‘virtual photons of the Aether, line up in the direction of propagation of the real photon forming themselves into a line whose ends rest on the shoulders of infinity. The energy of the real photon then travels along this line of virtual photons. However, and this is of significance, as the energy of the line of real photons travels along the line of aligned ‘virtual photons’ it is dispersed not only forward but also laterally so that the energy from the line of real photons spreads out in a cone shape from its point of origin. All of the area covered by this shape is filled with the energy of the original line of photons being emitted at the source. In order to understand how this dispersion takes place it is necessary to understand the concept of promotion wherein 'virtual photons' adjacent and in contact with the real photon are promoted to the status of real photons through a transfer of energy. This is why light follows the inverse square law.
 
 As the light moves further from its origin the intensity of the light varies as the inverse of the square of the distance from the source. However, the energy of each individual photon remains intact, thus if it is monochromatic blue-green light with a frequency of 600 THz that is being emitted then the energy of each individual photon would be equal to 3 x 108 x 6.62607004 ×10-34 / 5 x 10-7 = 2.48 eV. Thus at every point, considering that the monochromatic light has been travelling 100 Km, on a 10 billion square metre front, the energy would be 2.48eV. Every point in this context literally means every point with the dimensions of an atom. Energy from the original line of photons is being dissipated, even as it moves forward at the speed of light, through all the photons immediately surrounding it laterally, these in turn are passing on that energy to neighbouring photons.
 
 Thus at 2 metres distance from the origin, the original line of photons, taking as an example the same 500 nm wavelength, that is being pumped out at the rate of 6x1014 per second by an individual oscillating electron, has shared its energy out between three virtual photons, promoting them to real photons and making a total of four real photons, at 3 metres distance from the origin the 4 real photons would have become 9 real photons, the energy in the line behind the original photon consisting of 6x10 14 photons per second being passed onto the adjoining virtual photons and ‘promoting’ them to the level of real photons. At 6 metres from the source there would be 36 'real' photons and so on and at 9m there would be 81 real photons and at 100m there would be 10,000 real photons and so on. It should be noted that this is just a simulation in actual fact at 100 metres there would be something in the region of 1014 linked real photons, this is a necessary corollary of simplifying the depiction. Thus as the distance from the origin increases, the original photon promotes virtual photons to real photons, in a series that increases in number exponentially; as in the series, 2, 4, 9, 16, 25, 36, 49 etc., Similarly, as the distance increases, the energy in the line of photons behind the real photon eventually reaches its limit (i.e., the electron stops emitting) this means that the core energy of the photon is now being used, very soon, the light fades and all of the real photons that have been created in this process, turn back into virtual photons.
 
 So light is created, it travels through light, in turn creating more light, and in the end returns back into light. This is exactly similar to the manner in which a wave disperses its energy. It is possible to see how simply and naturally dispersion is explained using the aether model. Waves spread out naturally and in the same manner as when a stone is dropped into a still pool of water.
Logged
Sometimes a concept is baffling not because it is profound but because it is wrong.?
 



Offline McQueen (OP)

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • 763
  • Activity:
    0%
  • Thanked: 18 times
    • https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php
Re: A New Theory of Electromagnetic Radiation and Gravity
« Reply #1 on: 13/02/2017 02:08:11 »
Neo-Classical Physics or Gestalt Aether Theory states that electromagnetic radiation propagates in exactly the same way as any other wave propagates, namely through a medium. It is not the actual photon that travels from point A to point B but the energy of the photon that is transported.
 Returning to the subject of gravity, it should be understood that although gravity is one of the weakest forces in the Universe being approximately 1040 times weaker than the electromagnetic force, it is also the most pervasive force and the one whose presence is most obvious to the human senses. Our sense of up and down and our instinct that things released above the ground will fall to the earth is present from the earliest times although we can seldom feel its direct effect. A tiny refrigerator magnet has a force that is many quadrillions of times stronger than gravity, hands held apart by a few centimetres cannot sense the force of gravity. Yet this same force is also responsible for the formation of the planets and for the structure of the solar system, the galaxy and indeed of the whole Universe!
 
 The clue to the origins of gravity lies in the extreme weakness of the force it exerts. It is 1040 weaker than the force of electromagnetism. Explaining gravity’s relative feebleness is a profound challenge for physics. Neo-Classical physics raises the possibility that gravity is due to the exchange of gauge interactions. Exchange particles are virtual particles; the process of exchanging 'virtual particles' has the effect of bringing ordinary particles together—or in some cases pushing them apart. All of the forces; the strong force, the electromagnetic force, gravity and the weak force are due to gauge interactions involving the exchange of 'virtual particles'. As far as electrons are concerned the virtual particles that are emitted are photons as had been explained earlier in this post 'virtual photons ' are ordinary photons that either interact in such short intervals of time or have such low energies that they effectively avoid the conservation of energy laws experienced by the macro world. Virtual interactions (Gauge interactions) occur fast enough or posses such small energy that they can evade the Laws of Conservation of energy that prevail in the macro world.
 
 The Neo-Classical ( Gestalt Aether Theory) description of gravity contains elements of both General relativity and Isaac Newton's theory of Universal Gravitation. The Neo-Classical theory of gravity resembles General Relativity in that it works through altering the fabric of space, while General Relativity considers the fabric of space to be the space time continuum, neo-classical physics states that the fabric of space is the virtual photon aether that pervades the entire Universe, and that gravity is known through tensing of the virtual photon aether. However, it turns out that the neo-classical concept of gravity is almost identical to Isaac Newton's theory of Gravitation. Thus when electrons orbiting the atom emit 'virtual photons' it results in an alignment of the virtual photons of aether forming a line whose ends rest on infinity, albeit this alignment involves no actual transfer of energy as occurs in the case of emission of a real photon, but is merely a tensing of the virtual photon aether. It is this force or tensing of the aether that gives rise to the force of gravity. Since electrons orbiting the nucleus, must of necessity emit and absorb 'virtual photons' in order to maintain their stability around the nucleus it follows that electrons are constantly emitting and absorbing 'virtual photons'. Not only this but also that the number of virtual photons that are emitted depends directly on the number of electrons present in an atom. This means that denser atoms with more electrons, produce more 'virtual photons' than lass dense materials and therefore exert a stronger gravitational force. Furthermore the tensing of the virtual photon aether will occur even if the concerned atoms are hidden in the hearts of stars or planets, just as Newton had hypothesised, this is so because the aligned lines of 'virtual photons' posses such low energies that they are unaffected by matter and can therefore be established while originating deep within matter. Thus the neo-classical theory of gravity fulfils all of the stipulations made by Isaac Newton:
 
 it proceeds from a cause that penetrates to the very centers of the sun and the planets, without suffering the least diminution of its force; that operates not according to the quantity of the surfaces of the particles upon which it acts (as mechanical causes used to do) , but according to the quantity of solid matter which they contain, and propagates its virtue on all sides to great distances , decreasing always in the duplicate proportion of the distances……
 
 The above is almost a perfect description of gravity according to Neo-classical physics. The emission of ‘virtual photons’ by electrons give rise to ‘tensors’ or ‘fluxions’ in the photons of the ‘virtual photon aether’ causing them to align, extremely briefly in the direction of propagation, this is ALWAYS an attractive force, there is no resolution instead it will invariably result in a reciprocal release of a virtual photon, so that the attractive force is always positive, (these transactions never result in repulsion). It is the very slight force of alignment of the virtual photons of the aether that results in the force of gravity. The truly amazing thing is that this process of constant emission and absorption of ‘virtual photons’ by electrons within the atom, is an ongoing process, it will continue whether other objects are close by or not it is an intrinsic process of the atom. This also accounts for how the force of Gravity increases as two objects near each other. Further as the complexity of the atoms increase as they move up the periodic table of elements, so does the ‘virtual’ photon activity. This accounts for why dense objects experience and exert more gravitational force. This is how gravity works according to Neo-classical Theory. Note should be made that it is extremely close to how Newton believed gravity to work.
 
 The Neo-classical Theory also explains the paradox of how an iron ball and a feather can fall at the same rate in a vacuum. Previously this was thought to be due to a difference in inertial mass, but in actual fact the answer is much simpler than that, if the gravitational force exerted by the earth is attracting the iron ball and the feather towards itself, other gravitational forces are pulling the two objects away from the earth with exactly the same proportion of force as they are attracted to the earth with. The effect is as if the iron ball and the feather are being held back by a single force, thus they fall to earth at the same time.
 
 
Logged
Sometimes a concept is baffling not because it is profound but because it is wrong.?
 

Offline McQueen (OP)

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • 763
  • Activity:
    0%
  • Thanked: 18 times
    • https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php
Re: A New Theory of Electromagnetic Radiation and Gravity
« Reply #2 on: 14/02/2017 02:39:04 »
According to Neo-classical physics (Gestalt Aether Theory)  every time an electron within the atom that is orbiting the nucleus emits a gauge particle (virtual photon) it results in the photons  of the virtual photon aether aligning themselves in the direction of propagation of the 'virtual' photon forming a line whose ends rest on infinity.  However, unlike in the case wherein a real photon is emitted, the emission of a 'virtual photon' does not result in a transfer of energy, thus gravity is due to the flexing of the virtual photon aether. The fact that gravity follows the inverse square law is a function of the alignment which in turn is a function of the medium.
As had been elucidated  in the earlier post the lines of aligned virtual photons have such low energy that they can pass through matter without any interaction at all, no electron within an atom has any possible use for photons of such low energy, thus gravity can be established from the very centre of masses without the slightest diminution of its power.
Logged
Sometimes a concept is baffling not because it is profound but because it is wrong.?
 

Offline Bored chemist

  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • 31101
  • Activity:
    11.5%
  • Thanked: 1291 times
Re: A New Theory of Electromagnetic Radiation and Gravity
« Reply #3 on: 14/02/2017 20:06:05 »
I haven't read that- but I'm willing to bet it isn't a theory.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory
Logged
Please disregard all previous signatures.
 

Offline McQueen (OP)

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • 763
  • Activity:
    0%
  • Thanked: 18 times
    • https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php
Re: A New Theory of Electromagnetic Radiation and Gravity
« Reply #4 on: 15/02/2017 03:11:58 »
Quote
I haven't read that- but I'm willing to bet it isn't a theory.
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory 


Maybe it is all for the best.... sometimes a cynical mind set is all that is needed to be satisfied with one's  point of view. For instance here is my take on special relativity:

If a serious attempt is made to evaluate relativity, the results, from a commonsense point of view, are quite surprising. Take for instance a calculation involving the distance from the earth to the sun which is roughly 150,000,000 km. The time taken for a radio signal to travel this distance should be 50 seconds or 8.3 minutes and this is what the clocks show. If the same distance is measured using trigonometry and the parallax method, the results are remarkably in agreement with the initial finding that the distance between the earth and the sun is 150,000,000 km approx. Yet special relativity tells us that while the round trip for a radio signal travelling to the sun and back may take 16.6 minutes or a 1000 seconds, which makes sense, since the one-way distance is 150,000,000 km the two-way distance must be twice that or 300,000,000 km. Yet and here is where things become really peculiar, special relativity tells us that the one way trip from the earth to the sun also takes 1000 seconds, because time dilates and space contracts AND clocks run slower!!! From a common sense point of view does this make sense ? The distance has been measured using radio signals (i.e., electromagnetic radiation) AND trigonometry and found to be correct. Yet flying in the face of common sense, we are told that clocks have slowed by 500 seconds. What possible justification can there be for such a statement ? How is it that so many people believe it is true ?

IF the clocks had shown that the one-way distance from the earth to the sun actually does take the same time as the two-way distance from the earth to the sun THEN yes it makes perfect sense to believe that there is something peculiar going on here and that there must be am aether  wind or some other force such as space contraction or time dilation responsible for this strange result. But to hypothesise something that is simply not there and to weave such fantastical facts and theories out of it is simply too far along the yellow brick road to believe in.

Even more serious ( or hilarious ) depending on your point of view is the fact that this THEORY  is based on an experiment that disproved the existence of an aether model that called for an aether that was tens of millions of times more rigid than steel, yet was pliable enough for the planets to pass through. What more can I say on your take on theories ?
 
« Last Edit: 15/02/2017 03:15:48 by McQueen »
Logged
Sometimes a concept is baffling not because it is profound but because it is wrong.?
 



Offline Bored chemist

  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • 31101
  • Activity:
    11.5%
  • Thanked: 1291 times
Re: A New Theory of Electromagnetic Radiation and Gravity
« Reply #5 on: 15/02/2017 21:07:13 »
You say " Yet special relativity tells us that while the round trip for a radio signal travelling to the sun and back may take 16.6 minutes or a 1000 seconds, which makes sense, since the one-way distance is 150,000,000 km the two-way distance must be twice that or 300,000,000 km. Yet and here is where things become really peculiar, special relativity tells us that the one way trip from the earth to the sun also takes 1000 seconds, because time dilates and space contracts AND clocks run slower!!! "


Two point, firstly in what part of SR does it say "the one way trip from the earth to the sun also takes 1000 seconds"

Secondly
https://wiki.lspace.org/mediawiki/Multiple_exclamation_marks
Logged
Please disregard all previous signatures.
 

Offline McQueen (OP)

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • 763
  • Activity:
    0%
  • Thanked: 18 times
    • https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php
Re: A New Theory of Electromagnetic Radiation and Gravity
« Reply #6 on: 16/02/2017 03:19:00 »
Quote
Bored chemist:Two point, firstly in what part of SR does it say "the one way trip from the earth to the sun also takes 1000 seconds"
 
 Secondly
 https://wiki.lspace.org/mediawiki/Multiple_exclamation_marks


Firstly my apologies for getting carried away with the quotation marks. Secondly  Special Relativity seems to state that the one way velocity of light is equal to the two way velocity of light in order to maintain the constancy of the speed of light:

 
Quote
Einstein convention
This method synchronizes distant clocks in such a way that the one-way speed of light becomes equal to the two-way speed of light. If a signal sent from A at time 1d61c5a42af6f96a5650566640a156ad.gif is arriving at B at timeec8cc2a4d5f851d13db41bbd779e3c44.gif and coming back to A at time {\displaystyle t_{3}}t_{3}, then the following convention applies:
{\displaystyle t_{2}=t_{1}+{\tfrac {1}{2}}\left(t_{3}-t_{1}\right)}9fdc7f9cb7c4e650171269f6c18ed156.gif.
The link is here

Further the explanation, looked at with hindsight appears to be slightly weird.  The round-trip speed of light (two way) is indeed isotropic and is represented by the constant c. To measure the round-trip speed of light, we only need one clock and because of this we are not dependent on any clock synchronization procedures. In general, this is not the case when setting up experiments for measuring the one-way speed of light.

To measure the one-way speed of light, one generally needs two clocks. To synchronize two clocks over distance, one in general needs to know the one-way speed of light. Poincare, who believed that light propagates through the ether, thought it would be impossible to detect motion against the ether and thereby not the true one-way speed of light. For convenience he suggested that clocks should be synchronized based on "assuming" that the one-way time of light was half of the well-tested round-trip time of light. Einstein simply abandoned the ether and assumed the one-way speed of light was identical to the quite well-tested isotropic round-trip speed of light.

My apologies once more for the multiple exclamation marks. The bold face type is merely to emphasise Einstein's achievement.

The basic idea is that a person's sanity is inversely proportional to the number of exclamation marks they use!
See!!! That's what comes of believing in opera!!!"


 
« Last Edit: 16/02/2017 03:30:36 by McQueen »
Logged
Sometimes a concept is baffling not because it is profound but because it is wrong.?
 

Offline Bored chemist

  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • 31101
  • Activity:
    11.5%
  • Thanked: 1291 times
Re: A New Theory of Electromagnetic Radiation and Gravity
« Reply #7 on: 18/02/2017 13:24:22 »
speed<> time
Logged
Please disregard all previous signatures.
 

Offline jeffreyH

  • Global Moderator
  • Naked Science Forum King!
  • ********
  • 6996
  • Activity:
    0%
  • Thanked: 192 times
  • The graviton sucks
Re: A New Theory of Electromagnetic Radiation and Gravity
« Reply #8 on: 18/02/2017 13:30:27 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 18/02/2017 13:24:22
speed<> time

Speed <> time???? Really? OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Logged
Even the most obstinately ignorant cannot avoid learning when in an environment that educates.
 



Offline GoC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • 903
  • Activity:
    0%
  • Thanked: 82 times
Re: A New Theory of Electromagnetic Radiation and Gravity
« Reply #9 on: 18/02/2017 14:22:18 »
Quote from: McQueen on 16/02/2017 03:19:00
Quote
Bored chemist:Two point, firstly in what part of SR does it say "the one way trip from the earth to the sun also takes 1000 seconds"
 
 Secondly
 https://wiki.lspace.org/mediawiki/Multiple_exclamation_marks


Firstly my apologies for getting carried away with the quotation marks. Secondly  Special Relativity seems to state that the one way velocity of light is equal to the two way velocity of light in order to maintain the constancy of the speed of light:
 

Einstein understood atomic clocks one way and two way speed of light. You have to take into consideration the rotation of the Earth with one way speed of light. The two way in any direction auto corrects when divided by two.

Quote
Quote
Einstein convention
This method synchronizes distant clocks in such a way that the one-way speed of light becomes equal to the two-way speed of light. If a signal sent from A at time 1d61c5a42af6f96a5650566640a156ad.gif is arriving at B at timeec8cc2a4d5f851d13db41bbd779e3c44.gif and coming back to A at time {\displaystyle t_{3}}t_{3}, then the following convention applies:
{\displaystyle t_{2}=t_{1}+{\tfrac {1}{2}}\left(t_{3}-t_{1}\right)}9fdc7f9cb7c4e650171269f6c18ed156.gif.
The link is here

Further the explanation, looked at with hindsight appears to be slightly weird.  The round-trip speed of light (two way) is indeed isotropic and is represented by the constant c. To measure the round-trip speed of light, we only need one clock and because of this we are not dependent on any clock synchronization procedures. In general, this is not the case when setting up experiments for measuring the one-way speed of light.

To measure the one-way speed of light, one generally needs two clocks. To synchronize two clocks over distance, one in general needs to know the one-way speed of light. Poincare, who believed that light propagates through the ether, thought it would be impossible to detect motion against the ether and thereby not the true one-way speed of light. For convenience he suggested that clocks should be synchronized based on "assuming" that the one-way time of light was half of the well-tested round-trip time of light. Einstein simply abandoned the ether and assumed the one-way speed of light was identical to the quite well-tested isotropic round-trip speed of light.
 

Einstein abandoned the Ether concept in 1905 but recovered it in 1920. That was when the science community abandoned him. Einstein was not that simple. Relativity accounts for the speed of the Earth by the postulate light is independent of the source.

JefferyH

Time=Distance=Speed of light is an accurate ratio for c as constant. Dilation can change distance for c but = to time and speed of, while in every frame. Dilation changes your measuring stick of all reaction rates in mass. And not OMG. You have to hold multiple conditions in your mind to understand the true relationship in Relativity. Bored chemist appears to understand the ratio issues.
Logged
 

Offline Bored chemist

  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • 31101
  • Activity:
    11.5%
  • Thanked: 1291 times
Re: A New Theory of Electromagnetic Radiation and Gravity
« Reply #10 on: 18/02/2017 14:27:29 »
Quote from: jeffreyH on 18/02/2017 13:30:27
Quote from: Bored chemist on 18/02/2017 13:24:22
speed<> time

Speed <> time???? Really? OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Remarkable, isn't it.
It seems to be news to the OP
Logged
Please disregard all previous signatures.
 

Offline McQueen (OP)

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • 763
  • Activity:
    0%
  • Thanked: 18 times
    • https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php
Re: A New Theory of Electromagnetic Radiation and Gravity
« Reply #11 on: 19/02/2017 03:48:56 »
Quote
Bored chemist: speed<> time
The reason that they are not equal is due to the fact that they are different  quantities. While  Speed is a scalar quantity, Velocity is a vector quantity which means that along with the element of speed, it also constitutes direction in which it is moving.
Average velocity= Displacement / time
 Average speed= distance/time
Logged
Sometimes a concept is baffling not because it is profound but because it is wrong.?
 

Offline Bored chemist

  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • 31101
  • Activity:
    11.5%
  • Thanked: 1291 times
Re: A New Theory of Electromagnetic Radiation and Gravity
« Reply #12 on: 19/02/2017 10:15:25 »
"Einstein simply abandoned the ether and assumed the one-way speed of light was identical to the quite well-tested isotropic round-trip speed of light. "
What he did not say was that the time for the 1 way trip was the same as the time for the return trip.

You seem to have failed to distinguish these ideas.



You said "Yet and here is where things become really peculiar, special relativity tells us that the one way trip from the earth to the sun also takes 1000 seconds,"
Logged
Please disregard all previous signatures.
 



Offline McQueen (OP)

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • 763
  • Activity:
    0%
  • Thanked: 18 times
    • https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php
Re: A New Theory of Electromagnetic Radiation and Gravity
« Reply #13 on: 20/02/2017 03:06:58 »
Quote
Bored chemist:"Einstein simply abandoned the ether and assumed the one-way speed of light was identical to the quite well-tested isotropic round-trip speed of light. "
 What he did not say was that the time for the 1 way trip was the same as the time for the return trip.
 You seem to have failed to distinguish these ideas.


I think that Einstein's idea, which is surely twisted considering that clocks of the time were clockwork, was that the measurement of the two way time (i.e., round trip from A to B and back to A)  involved only one clock and was therefore accurate!  While the one way trip from A to B involved two clocks that could never be perfectly synchronised, making it possible to assume that the one way trip from A to B  took the same time as the round trip from A to and Back to A again but was not detected because clock at B  ran slower than the one at A. This preserved the speed of light as constant as Einstein thought of it. Surely this is the same thing that  I have stated ?  Also :

Quote
This method synchronizes distant clocks in such a way that the one-way speed of light becomes equal to the two-way speed of light


Which again emphasises that to Einstein the one way time was the same as the two way time.
Logged
Sometimes a concept is baffling not because it is profound but because it is wrong.?
 

Offline GoC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • 903
  • Activity:
    0%
  • Thanked: 82 times
Re: A New Theory of Electromagnetic Radiation and Gravity
« Reply #14 on: 20/02/2017 03:35:06 »
It's difficult to assume what Einstein understood but he claimed the atomic clocks could be the same as measuring the speed of light between positions. Relativity takes into consideration the rotational speed of the Earth. If we were sitting on the moon and watched light travel from NY to SF hit a mirror and return the distance covered from NY to SF would be shorter than the distance from SF to NY. This was also reflected in atomic clocks making the journey in a van by a Canadian group. 14 ns difference was observed. You can synchronize clocks from the North and South poles straight down or up any Latitude to a position at sea level. C+V and C-V for longitude. All clocks tick at the same rate at sea level.
Logged
 

Offline Bored chemist

  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • 31101
  • Activity:
    11.5%
  • Thanked: 1291 times
Re: A New Theory of Electromagnetic Radiation and Gravity
« Reply #15 on: 22/02/2017 20:14:45 »
Quote from: McQueen on 20/02/2017 03:06:58

Quote
This method synchronizes distant clocks in such a way that the one-way speed of light becomes equal to the two-way speed of light


Which again emphasises that to Einstein the one way time was the same as the two way time.
No; that's the exact opposite of what it emphasises.
The point is that if the speed is the same the two way trip will take (exactly) twice as long.
Logged
Please disregard all previous signatures.
 

Offline McQueen (OP)

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • 763
  • Activity:
    0%
  • Thanked: 18 times
    • https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php
Re: A New Theory of Electromagnetic Radiation and Gravity
« Reply #16 on: 23/02/2017 00:30:42 »
Quote
Bored chemist: No; that's the exact opposite of what it emphasises.
 The point is that if the speed is the same the two way trip will take (exactly) twice as long.


Exactly my point is that the synchronisation of the clocks does not seem to make sense.

Below is a passage from Wikipedia, the terms relating to speed of light are in red. If you still have a problem maybe you should ask them why they are posting this material?

When using the term 'the speed of light' it is sometimes necessary to make the distinction between its one-way speed and its two-way speed. The "one-way" speed of light from a source to a detector, cannot be measured independently of a convention as to how to synchronize the clocks at the source and the detector. What can however be experimentally measured is the round-trip speed (or "two-way" speed of light) from the source to the detector and back again. Albert Einstein chose a synchronization convention (see Einstein synchronization) that made the one-way speed equal to the two-way speed. The constancy of the one-way speed in any given inertial frame, is the basis of his special theory of relativity although all experimentally verifiable predictions of this theory do not depend on that convention
Logged
Sometimes a concept is baffling not because it is profound but because it is wrong.?
 



  • Print
Pages: [1]   Go Up
« previous next »
Tags:
 
There was an error while thanking
Thanking...
  • SMF 2.0.15 | SMF © 2017, Simple Machines
    Privacy Policy
    SMFAds for Free Forums
  • Naked Science Forum ©

Page created in 0.471 seconds with 64 queries.

  • Podcasts
  • Articles
  • Get Naked
  • About
  • Contact us
  • Advertise
  • Privacy Policy
  • Subscribe to newsletter
  • We love feedback

Follow us

cambridge_logo_footer.png

©The Naked Scientists® 2000–2017 | The Naked Scientists® and Naked Science® are registered trademarks created by Dr Chris Smith. Information presented on this website is the opinion of the individual contributors and does not reflect the general views of the administrators, editors, moderators, sponsors, Cambridge University or the public at large.