[alancalverd]

Imagine you can shine a laser upwards from an origin O on the surface of the earth. Not difficult. Now measure the wavelength received at different altitudes A and B where B>A. We know you will see a red shift S which increases with observer altitude. As far as B is concerned, the red shift between A and B is a shift in the wavelength of a photon whose source has no mass but is at a lower gravitational potential.   Mathematically, if

S_AB = S_OB - S_OA

then the mass of the source is irrelevant.

Note that I am measuring  wavelength, using a diffraction grating, so no possible effect of gravitation on my measuring apparatus.

It's a simple experiment that will challenge your hypothesis.

[timey (OP)]

I went through all that with Colin earlier this thread.  The light is red shifted as it gets further away from O.  It's wavelength gets longer.  My hypothesis is that where space is m=0 that the rate of time is getting slower further away from O.  The light was emitted at a certain wavelength in a frame of reference, which we will call reference frame A, where a second is of a certain length. We will call the second at the point of the lights emission second 0.   At elevation 1 divide the extra length in wavelength by the speed of light for a time period and add this time period to the length of second 0 in order to know the length of second 1.  At elevation 2 divide the extra length in wavelength as compared to elevation 1 by the speed of light for a time period and add this time period to the length of second 1 in order to know the length of second 2, and so on.

Place your light source emitter at elevation and point the laser at O.  Now you will observe from your position below that the light is blue shifted.  But is the light source emitter emitting light with the same wavelength as it was emitting when it was in reference frame A?

The atomic clock would suggest that the light emitter at elevation is not emitting light with the same wavelength that it was in reference frame A.  The atomic clock suggests that the light source emitter will be emitting light with a shorter wavelength in the elevated position compared to the wavelength of the light the light source was emitting in reference frame A.

:educate/explore
Atoms as clocks

Every atom is composed of a nucleus, which contains the atom’s protons and neutrons (collectively known as nucleons). Orbiting that nucleus are the atom’s electrons, which occupy different orbits, or energy levels.

By absorbing or releasing exactly the right amount of energy, the electrons can ‘jump’ from one energy level to another. This is called a transition. The electrons absorb energy to move to a higher energy level (away from the nucleus), and release energy to move down an energy level (towards the nucleus).

The energy released or absorbed in these transitions takes the form of electromagnetic radiation (e.g. visible light or microwaves). The same amount of energy is released every time the same transition occurs, no matter where or how many times it is measured.

As with all waves, the radiation has a certain frequency (i.e., it completes a certain number of full waves in a second, similar to the way a pendulum completes a certain number of swings in a minute) and this frequency can be measured. This means that a clock can be based on the wave frequency of an electron’s transition energy in an atom, in a similar way to a clock based on the swinging of a pendulum.

Why do we use caesium?

The caesium atom defines the SI second. The second is 9 192 631 770 periods of the electromagnetic radiation emitted or absorbed by the ground state hyperfine transition of the caesium atom. This means that a second is the amount of time it takes for the radiation from this transition to complete 9 192 631 770 full waves.

As with all atoms, no matter where or how it is measured this number will never change, meaning that it’s a far more reliable method of timekeeping than the Sun’s movement in the sky.

Measuring the second in a caesium fountain atomic clock

An atomic fountain clock has three stages:

Six lasers placed at right angles to each other (aimed above, below, left of, right of, in front of and behind the target) are fired at a group of caesium atoms. This is known as an optical trap: the light from the six lasers pushes the caesium atoms closer together, stopping them moving to the point where they almost stop vibrating at all. As both a particle and a wave, light has momentum (just like any other object that is moving), and is able to push very small objects such as atoms. Since atomic vibrations are what we feel as heat, the caesium atoms become ultra-cold, reaching temperatures of around one microKelvin - a tiny fraction of a degree above absolute zero (-273.15 °C).
Once the atoms have been cooled down, the lasers above and below them are used to launch them upwards inside the fountain’s microwave chamber, and the atoms then fall back down under gravity. This launch-and-fall movement is why the clock is referred to as a ‘fountain’. The chamber uses microwave radiation to cause the caesium atoms’ electrons to move between two specific energy levels as they fly up and fall down through it.
Finally, once the atoms have completed their flight, the energy levels of the electrons can be measured through fluorescence – atoms with electrons in different energy levels will emit different radiation patterns when probed with a laser.
This whole process takes about a second, and is repeated over and over with different microwave frequencies until the frequency that causes the maximum number of caesium electrons to change energy levels is found. This frequency is the resonant frequency, and this is the frequency that is used to define the SI second. As caesium fountain clocks are improved, the microwave frequency can be more finely tuned and the SI second can be even more accurately defined.

Do you have a problem with any of the terminology that has been used in this quote?

Because if not then I shall use the terminology in this quote for further description...

[alancalverd]

I went through all that with Colin earlier this thread.  The light is red shifted as it gets further away from O.  It's wavelength gets longer.  My hypothesis is that where space is m=0 that the rate of time is getting slower further away from O. 

We know time slows down at a low gravitational potential, as predicted by GR and measured by GPS clocks, and you now say it also slows down at the maximum gravitational potential (deep space, gravitational potential = 0). Seems very unlikely. At what point is time running at its fastest?

[timey (OP)]

I have simply made a distinction between what time is doing where m doesn't equal 0, i.e. GR and SR time dilations, and what time is doing where m does equal 0, i.e. the 3rd aspect of time dilation that my model adds that cannot be measured directly because no measuring device is m=0...
This 3rd aspect of time dilation can be measured indirectly via the wavelength of gravitationally shifted light, and via the rate that all m freefalls towards M, or via the rate that the motion of m direction away from M is decelerated.

As I asked in my last post, did you have a problem with any of the terminology used in the quote I provided?

The point where time will run at it's fastest will be just before my cyclic model's rendition of a Big Bang.

[guest4091]

timey quotes:

Therefore conventional physics has, despite the conservation of energy law stating that it is the sum total of potential and kinetic energy that must be conserved, has chosen to state potential energy as an energy that cannot be placed as residing anywhere.

A test object receives energy from the g-field, therefore the PE is the field yet is still part of the total energy of the mass M. (Unless you want to regress to 'action at a distance'). Remove M, remove the field!
There is no theory that explains how the energy is transferred from M to the surrounding space, and that's where I think you are underestimating the challenge.
Space will have to be an invisible structure capable of retaining energy, but different from the ether of 1900. or maybe a process totally foreign to our thinking.

GR uses a geometric deforming of spacetime to represent the behavior of a test object  but that just puts off the question/explanation. What is deformed if space is a nothingness between bits of matter?
As a hypothetical example, imagine a g-field composed of vectors, all the same length, all pointing to earth center, but increasing in density toward earth center, i.e. inverse square rule. The object absorbs an impulse and change of direction at an increasing frequency as it approaches. The space is not curved, but the path is. The perception is also altered in GR just as in SR, so your local clock will seem 'normal', and you only see differences when comparing your clock to a remote clock.
 

Under the remit of this system Planck's h constant becomes a function of time dilation, where it is changes in energy level that are causing changes in the rate of time.

 

You can't redefine h as a function. The explanation and predictions of 'black body radiation' and the 'photoelectric effect' depend on it being a constant. Changes in the rate of time depends on position in the g-field. The equivalence principle states acceleration is equal to a uniform g-field for small intervals of space and time. Imagine the clock at a random position in the g-field, in a box accelerating upward at g. The (internal) light component will require more time to ascend, i.e. red shift, as viewed by an occupant at the top of the box. This is equivalent to the box resting on the surface.

[Colin2B]

I went through all that with Colin earlier this thread.  The light is red shifted as it gets further away from O.  It's wavelength gets longer.  My hypothesis is that where space is m=0 that the rate of time is getting slower further away from O. 

You may have stated that, but I don't recall agreeing that it is the case. I probably didn't bother to respond.

[timey (OP)]

I went through all that with Colin earlier this thread.  The light is red shifted as it gets further away from O.  It's wavelength gets longer.  My hypothesis is that where space is m=0 that the rate of time is getting slower further away from O. 

You may have stated that, but I don't recall agreeing that it is the case. I probably didn't bother to respond.

I didn't state it.  I was asking for advice on the mathematical description of such, where you said that I was on safe ground with the equation E=hf because that is how conventional physics describes the energy of light.

Furthermore I don't expect anybody here to agree with what I am saying.  There is no agreeing or disagreeing on how the universe works.  That would be presumptuous.  All I that is required is to understand if the mathematics for the ideas that I am suggesting can be mathematically viable to describe observation.  If they are then it is only by experiment (and my model has it's suggested experiment to prove or disprove itself as is required of any serious proposal) that one will see if the universe agrees or not.

You did bother to respond, in that you were discussing the related maths with me.  Am I the only person here who can actually remember the details of previous conversations?  I can indeed remember each and every word that you have written in response to me Colin, this being because I can be bothered. It upsets me that you be so dismissive.

[alancalverd]

The energy released or absorbed in these transitions takes the form of electromagnetic radiation (e.g. visible light or microwaves). The same amount of energy is released every time the same transition occurs, no matter where or how many times it is measured.

That's the key point that you disagree with.

[Colin2B]

I didn't state it.  I was asking for advice on the mathematical description of such, where you said that I was on safe ground with the equation E=hf because that is how conventional physics describes the energy of light.

It upsets me that you be so dismissive.

I wasn't being dismissive, I was saying I didn't respond. The E=hf was in response to the energy of light, not your description of redshift.

[timey (OP)]

timey quotes:

Therefore conventional physics has, despite the conservation of energy law stating that it is the sum total of potential and kinetic energy that must be conserved, has chosen to state potential energy as an energy that cannot be placed as residing anywhere.

A test object receives energy from the g-field, therefore the PE is the field yet is still part of the total energy of the mass M. (Unless you want to regress to 'action at a distance'). Remove M, remove the field!

Yes - if M is removed, the field is removed and the field then becomes associated with the test particle.

 
There is no theory that explains how the energy is transferred from M to the surrounding space, and that's where I think you are underestimating the challenge.

There is no theory that explains how the energy is transferred from the field to the test particle either...
My model does not attempt to explain how M transfers energy to the field, but it does attempt to explain how that energy accelerates m in the field.  My model also doesn't attempt to describe how the field transfers energy to the test particle, but it does attempt to describe the 'action' in the test particle that is the result of the energy being transferred.

Space will have to be an invisible structure capable of retaining energy, but different from the ether of 1900. or maybe a process totally foreign to our thinking.

My theory states the phenomenon of time as being a by-product of energy.  Differing rates of time are an invisible structure.

GR uses a geometric deforming of spacetime to represent the behavior of a test object  but that just puts off the question/explanation. What is deformed if space is a nothingness between bits of matter?

My model uses a temporal deforming of spacetime to represent the behavior of the test particle.

As a hypothetical example, imagine a g-field composed of vectors, all the same length, all pointing to earth center, but increasing in density toward earth center, i.e. inverse square rule. The object absorbs an impulse and change of direction at an increasing frequency as it approaches. The space is not curved, but the path is.

You are taking about the rate of acceleration on approach to body M.
The object absorbes an impulse and is decreasing in it's own frequency (decreasing rate of time) as it approaches if it is mass.
The object absorbes an impulse and is increasing in it's own frequency (increasing rate of time in space) as it approaches if it is light.
If one uses the gravitational red shift equation to work backwards from observation position and calculate the blue shift of the approaching light, (because a progression of blue shift is the reverse of a progression of red shift), where one divides each bit of length of increase in red shifted wavelength by the speed of light and add the resulting time period to the time period of the second before... (as described in this post https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=69800.msg514211#msg514211) ... then these time differences in the gravitational field will describe, not the reduction in frequency (rate of time) observed of the mass as it approaches, but the acceleration of the rate of motion that the object of mass is falling at, i.e. gravitational acceleration/free fall.

The perception is also altered in GR just as in SR, so your local clock will seem 'normal', and you only see differences when comparing your clock to a remote clock.

Which is unchanged in my model, but my altered version of the remit of SR should give more accurate time meshing results.

:timey
Under the remit of this system Planck's h constant becomes a function of time dilation, where it is changes in energy level that are causing changes in the rate of time.

 
You can't redefine h as a function. The explanation and predictions of 'black body radiation' and the 'photoelectric effect' depend on it being a constant.

I think you need to throw back in time to the ultraviolet catastrophe and before Planck invented the h constant to 'iron out' his data.  The problem with the ultra violet catastrophe was (in brief and simplified) that it takes more energy to achieve the transitions of the higher frequencies of light than it does to achieve the transitions of the lower frequencies.  So Planck worked out that if he chopped the input energy into equal packages and multiplied by the number of wave cycles per second that he could achieve the data curve he was seeking.
As an alternative, (although Planck's system is more dexterous in it's applications inclusive of my model's mathematics interpreted as a time function), as frequency increases simply shorten the length of a second so that the wave cycles remain a constant number, and the energy additions will be rendered as a linear progression.

[timey (OP)]

The energy released or absorbed in these transitions takes the form of electromagnetic radiation (e.g. visible light or microwaves). The same amount of energy is released every time the same transition occurs, no matter where or how many times it is measured.

That's the key point that you disagree with.

No - I don't disagree with anything in any of that quote.

The same amount of energy is released every time the same transition occurs, no matter where or how many times it is measured.

Absolutely, because where-ever one measures one will be measuring by the rate of time of the local clock, and any and all atom's 'action' in that local will be affected as the clock's action is.

Edit: Phyti - I answered your post in the post before this one.

[alancalverd]

Compare 

any and all atom's 'action' in that local will be affected as the clock's action is.

with

The same amount of energy is released every time the same transition occurs, no matter where or how many times it is measured.

Note the contradiction between "will be affected" and "the same....no matter where", and recall that my thought experiment was measuring energy with a diffraction grating, not a clock.

[timey (OP)]

Well it is an interesting thought experiment Alan, but mostly because I have been scratching my head for hours trying for the life of me to work out why you think this is relevant to the 'action' of an atom placed at differing GP's of Earth, or the 'gravitational' shift in light.

Clearly the relationship between frequency and wavelength is upheld within the diffraction grating assembly via length of a groove and the density of grooves, where the light is diffracted into its constituent wavelength components.
Clearly the spectrum of light is used in the study of stars where, in accordance with Wien’s displacement law, the star with the longest wavelength has the lowest temperature and vice versa where the spectrum gives information on the mass, density of each element, intensity of the magnetic field, and changes occurring in a star.

:brighthub.com
A spectrum also helps to prove the dynamic nature of universe. As seen earlier, each celestial object has its own characteristic spectrum. The spectral lines corresponding to an elements present in a galaxy can be identified by comparing it with the actual spectral lines recorded for each element on Earth. If the spectral lines observed from a galaxy shows a shift towards the red colour then it is called redshift.
Whereas, if the shift is towards blue, then it is a blueshift. According to Doppler Effect, if a source is moving away from an observer then there is an apparent increase in wavelength of the light emitted by that source, this results in a redshift in its spectrum. Likewise, in a blueshift the source is moving towards the observer, hence a shift towards shorter wavelengths. Spectral lines obtained from most of the galaxies show a red shift, whereas the number of galaxies which show a blue shift in its spectral lines are only few, Andromeda is one among them. Thus, this shift in spectral lines provides information on the movement of galaxies. Since most of the galaxies are showing shift towards red it is commonly pointed out that the universe is expanding.

What we see here is an explanation of red shift and blue shift, and a means of interpreting the spectral lines corresponding to elements present in a galaxy that states that the spectral lines corresponding to elements present in a galaxy can be identified by comparing it with the actual spectral lines recorded for each element on Earth...
But this description does not take into account the factor of gravitational influences, such as the 'gravitational' shift in light, or the fact that an atomic clock's tick rate is based on a resonant microwave frequency that will cause the atom to jump between energy levels, where the mathematics of GR time dilation state (in no uncertain terms) that clock's will be ticking faster at higher GP's, and the fact of the matter is that the physicality of a faster tick rate incorporates that an atomic clock be operating at a higher resonant frequency in the higher GP as compared to in the lower GP, which has been proven by experiment.
A higher resonant frequency means that the energy levels that the atoms are jumping between must also be occurring at a higher energy level, (otherwise the 'maximum number' of atoms being resonated will be reduced, and it isn't), which means that the microwave beam source is also 'jumped' to a higher energy level and is emitting a higher frequency microwave beam.

I will let you digest that and state your thoughts before putting the above into the context of my 'contracting' cyclic model.

[alancalverd]

So far, all you have done is present a rather garbled version of what we already know frm GR and experiment. Nothing in what you say has any bearing on a cyclic universe, however sensible that model may be.

The point of using a diffraction grating is to show that red shift is measurable without measuring temporal frequency, so whatever mechanism you propose for the desynchronisation of clocks must also apply to the change in wavelength of a photon, which suggests that shifts in atomic energy levels is not the root cause.

[jeffreyH]

If f = frequency and w = wavelength then c = fw. The speed of light does not change. The frequency, wavelength ratio varies. This could be interpreted as our time dilation being the cause of a perceived change in wavelength. Where the properties of the photon are always constant. This contradicts the effects on the speed of light in a strong gravitational field. Especially at the horizon of a black hole.

[timey (OP)]

So far, all you have done is present a rather garbled version of what we already know frm GR and experiment. Nothing in what you say has any bearing on a cyclic universe, however sensible that model may be.

The point of using a diffraction grating is to show that red shift is measurable without measuring temporal frequency, so whatever mechanism you propose for the desynchronisation of clocks must also apply to the change in wavelength of a photon, which suggests that shifts in atomic energy levels is not the root cause.

You seem to have completely forgotten that my model redefines the observation of red shift/blue shift as being entirely due to gravitational shift.  The wavelength changes in the gravitationally shifted light are then due to a 3rd aspect of the time dilation phenomenon where m=0, i.e. open space, where the fact that light's wavelength is longer in the higher potential (via the maths of GR, or the observer being in the higher potential), is time related, and that this constitutes a complete re-interpretation of Hubble's velocity related red shift/distance correlation as being a temporally related red shift/distance correlation, because the length of the wave is time related.
And where the clock which is 'increased' in frequency (via the maths of GR, or the observer being in the lower potential) and has a shorter wavelength in the higher GP, my model is suggesting that this is due to gravity potential energy being active in mass.  Where if one wants to locate a quantum electron, one can know it's energy, and therefore know the related frequency and wavelength, where Qe = h*f/wavelength, because the length of the wave is time related.  (I think anyway, but I need some help with that equation)
So in my model GR increases the rate of time for mass in the higher GP, the 3rd aspect of time dilation decreases the rate of time in the weaker open space gravity field, and SR decreases or increases the rate of time for mass due to accelerated or decelerated motion relative to the gravity field. 

The spectrum analysis of spectral lines corresponding to elements present in a galaxy that can be identified by comparing it with the actual spectral lines recorded for each element on Earth, resulting for the most part in red shift, are now not describing an expanding universe.  They are describing that the gravitational fields between galaxy clusters are becoming weaker as the galaxies of galaxy clusters are drawn closer together under the influence of gravity.  Where our blue shifted results are observed of our own Milkyway galaxy and the Andromeda galaxy in our own galaxy cluster being drawn closer together, thus indicating a gravity field that is increasing in strength.

Also you say that a cyclic model is a sensible model, where I will now remind you 'again' that my cyclic model differs from the conventional bounce cyclic model, in that my model states the universe as slowly contracting at a progressively accelerating rate from the point that my models rendition of Inflation period (also differing from Alan Guth's conventional model of inflation) ends. i.e. a universe that is currently contracting.

[timey (OP)]

If f = frequency and w = wavelength then c = fw. The speed of light does not change. The frequency, wavelength ratio varies. This could be interpreted as our time dilation being the cause of a perceived change in wavelength. Where the properties of the photon are always constant. This contradicts the effects on the speed of light in a strong gravitational field. Especially at the horizon of a black hole.

GR states that time runs at differing rates at differing GP's, but the speed of light is held relative to a static length second.  You saw what happened when Mike held the speed of light relative to GR time dilation.  He couldn't use SR length contraction and obtain sensible results.
If you want to locate a photon Qp = h*c/wavelength.  Hold the speed of light relative to a 3rd aspect time dilation second, and you can say Qp = c/wavelength.  If changes in gravitationally shifted light's wavelength are temporal rather than spatial, then one doesn't need to use the SR length contraction/space dilation concept to describe curvature of space.  It is the path through time that is curved and the geometry itself remains Euclidean.

[guest4091]

timey;

Under the remit of this system Planck's h constant becomes a function of time dilation, where it is changes in energy level that are causing changes in the rate of time.

Plank's constant is independent of time. You can introduce a Timey factor if you wish.

I think you need to throw back in time to the ultraviolet catastrophe and before Planck invented the h constant to 'iron out' his data.  The problem with the ultra violet catastrophe was (in brief and simplified) that it takes more energy to achieve the transitions of the higher frequencies of light than it does to achieve the transitions of the lower frequencies.  So Planck worked out that if he chopped the input energy into equal packages and multiplied by the number of wave cycles per second that he could achieve the data curve he was seeking.

It wasn't quite that simple. The original formulas by Wien and Rayleigh were based on the premise of equal probability for all frequencies. Experiment showed they weren't. While energy was accumulating, lower frequency quanta were forming because the conditions were sufficient. (The quanta forming process does not know what the observer is expecting.)

As an alternative, (although Planck's system is more dexterous in it's applications inclusive of my model's mathematics interpreted as a time function), as frequency increases simply shorten the length of a second so that the wave cycles remain a constant number, and the energy additions will be rendered as a linear progression.

If a second contained a constant number of wave lengths, how could the frequency change? Increased frequency was the resolution of the black body spectrum and the photoelectric effect. E=hf. The value of h has been verified and accepted in all of quantum physics.
A new theory has to agree with established facts, and work with established values, whether constants or variables. This does not prohibit the introduction of new terms.

[timey (OP)]

phyti...

If you put yourself in the local frame with a clock, that clock will have the same frequency and wavelength in any GP that you place yourself and the clock in...  Calculate from the reference frame of the observer in a differing GP and the frequency and wavelength is not the same.

Looking at the black body emissions, I am making a parallel with the source of the emissions and the clock.  The source of the black body emissions 'the free electrons' are being increased in energy and emitting higher frequency, shorter wavelength light emissions as energy is increased.

If you calculate from the reference frame of the free electrons, the frequency of the emissions will remain the same as energy is increased.  Calculate from the reference frame of the static length second that Planck used, i.e. Planck's reference frame, and the frequency and wavelength of the light emissions change as energy is increased.

By calculating from the reference frame of the free electrons I am suggesting that the frequency will remain the same because seconds are becoming shorter.  By holding the frequency constant and using shorter seconds as energy is increased, there will be no quantum leaps... The energy increases will be a linear progression and Planck's constant is not necessary, but is useful for mathematical purposes as a function of time.

And drawing parallels between the linear progression of energy increases of this method of analyzing the black body, and the frequency changes observed of the clock from the non-local frame, the frequency changes observed of the clock in the differing GP's are then caused by the increase or decrease of potential energy as compared to the potential energy of the observers frame.

Now quantum is unified with gravity... 

[guest4091]

The only linear relation is f _max=kT, max freq is proportional to absolute temp.
refer to:
www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black-body_radiation