[timey (OP)]

If one measures the frequency of the caesium atom at any gravity potential using the tick rate of a clock at that gravity potential, then the frequency of the atom is always 9,192,631,770Hz, and that 'is' ground state.

No. It isn't the "frequency of the atom". There are umpteen frequencies associated with an atom. It's the frequency of the photon that is associated with the  transition between the two hyperfine ground states of the electrons in the  cesium  atom.

Apropos fields, imagine a small source  subject to two gravitational field vectors at right angles, say  midway between Earth and Mars and offset from the line joining them. The  blue shift we observe depends only on which planet we are standing on, not the net field vector at the source. That is to say that it depends on gravitational potential difference, not field. 

This is the sort of pedantry that get Galileo into trouble, and without which we would still be stuck in the dark ages of superstition.

"The observer" is a convenient fiction who turns up all over physics, but without that irritating little man on Google Earth, we wouldn't know which way we are looking, and therefore would have no idea what we are looking at.

When I say the frequency of the atom, this is because I have already given a description in previous posts on this thread concerning electron transitions, quantum energy levels, the resulting photon energy/frequency, and indication that this discussion is concerning the use of the caesium atom as a time keeping measurement.
I really don't want to have to write a book giving terms and conditions for the content of each and every individual post I make.
Honestly, people can't be bothered to read and respond if the post is too long, but then complain as to shorthand when the posts are kept short.  Where is the middle ground aye?

I have made it quite clear that the frequency that I am referring to is 9,192,631,770Hz.
This is the ground state frequency of a caesium atom.

In any case, the bit that I am trying to talk about is:
That if one observes the frequency to be higher than 9,192,631,770Hz, 'from' the lower gravity potential, and then measures this higher frequency held relative to the tick rate at the higher potential, then the frequency is 9,192,631,770Hz.

So - does this mean that the ground state frequency of the caesium atom really is higher in the higher gravity potential?

Because it looks to me as if the caesium atom's electron transitions will increase in frequency at each higher potential, and that what someone observes is dependent on what rate of time they use to measure the observation with...

[GoC]

So - does this mean that the ground state frequency of the caesium atom really is higher in the higher gravity potential?

If you mean higher PE position yes

Because it looks to me as if the caesium atom's electron transitions will increase in frequency at each higher potential, and that what someone observes is dependent on what rate of time they use to measure the observation with...

Yes, A clock measures the available potential energy remaining of total energy c.  This is a density measurement of energy in GR and the extra travel distance in SR. The highest density is in space the furthest away from mass. Potential tick rate would be the fastest. But you cannot even use that as a standard second.

[timey (OP)]

[/size]This is a subjective opinion about seeing different spectrum of lines at elevation proving the electron transition do not move to higher energy levels causing higher frequencies.

What I was specifically talking about was the ground state vs electrons moving to higher energy levels in the atom.

What do the electron transitions of an atom have to do with the emission of a photon?

They are the 'cause' of the emission

Are electron transitions related to quantum energy levels?

Yes. The transitions are the 'moves' between energy levels. The ground state is the lowest level and results in the lowest energy photons. If the electron transitions take place from higher energy levels the photons have higher energy. Note this is a quick and dirty explanation.If the transitions were being made from higher energy levels in an elevated atom that ought to be noticed by an observer at that elevation.However, one thing I didn't mention last night (long post,  very late) is that if you decide in your theory to assume that the energy levels of the ground state are 'lifted' then you could consider that the ground state is emitting higher energy photons.

... and that is pretty much what I'm saying, except that I would describe the situation as being that ground states at differing gravity potentials are of differing energies due to potential energy.

Now it's just a case of following cause and effect...
Move caesium atom to higher gravity potential, the increase in potential energy increases the quantum energy level of the atom, this increases the electron transitions, the atom then emits higher energy, higher frequency photons.

If we were to view these photons emitted in the higher gravity potential from the lower gravity potential, we would only be able to view the photons 'at' the lower potential, where the photons will have been shifted to a higher energy, higher frequency.

This leading to the mathematical question/s that I am currently asking of Mike on the 'is there a discrepancy with the equivalence principle' thread.

[alancalverd]

I have made it quite clear that the frequency that I am referring to is 9,192,631,770Hz.
This is the ground state frequency of a caesium atom.

Life is too short to bother with people who redefine or misuse common vocabulary. I won't repeat the definition of a second, because everyone knows it.

In any case, the bit that I am trying to talk about is:
That if one observes the frequency to be higher than 9,192,631,770Hz, 'from' the lower gravity potential, and then measures this higher frequency held relative to the tick rate at the higher potential, then the frequency is 9,192,631,770Hz.

Confused and selfreferential, but the truth hidden behind your statement is that there is no gravitational shift between clocks at the same gravitational potential. This is obvious. 

Because it looks to me as if the caesium atom's electron transitions will increase in frequency at each higher potential, and that what someone observes is dependent on what rate of time they use to measure the observation with...

Everything you observe depends on your gravitational potential difference relative to the source of your observation.

[timey (OP)]

Sorry, but I said that the caesium atom at a higher gravity potential is observed 'from' the lower potential to have a higher frequency than the caesium atom at the lower potential does.  When one measures the frequency of the atom 'in' the higher gravity potential via the rate of time 'in' the higher potential, the frequency is then the same as the frequency of the ceasium atom that is in the lower gravity potential, this being ground state - so quite how you have come by your reply about the clock's being in the same gravity potential is beyond me.

Everything you observe depends on your gravitational potential difference relative to the source of your observation.

Clearly!  This being my point of interest...  So why is this the case?  What is causing this?

[alancalverd]

I'll ignore another misuse of "ground state". 

Once again you have stated, in a roundabout way, that the observed frequency of a clock depends on the gravitational potential difference between the source and the observer.  No big deal: it is predicted by GR and observed at all levels from laboratories to galaxies.

The cause is the gravitational contraction of time.  I'm sure it is all set out, in far more detail and with far greater precision than I can offer, in one of your many physics textbooks.  Simply put, however,  we can see that a photon moving towards a lower gravitational potential will be gaining energy, but since its speed is constrained to be constant, this can only manifest as an increase in frequency. Now have a clock at altitude firing a pulse of photons every second (how else could you observe it?)  If the frequency of individual photons  increases as they approach the observer, so must the rate of arrival of the pulses.  So the clock appears to be running faster than an identical clock at the lower potential.

[timey (OP)]

Yes that's right Alan - I have learned about relativity in the many physics books I've read, so why do you keep on stating the obvious?

The caesium atomic clock is observed to be of a higher frequency, (this being the frequency of the atom's electron transitions), in the higher gravity potential 'from' the lower gravity potential, where 'in' the lower gravity potential the atom is ground state 9,192,631,770Hz. (stating obvious)...
What I am trying to discuss here Alan is wether or not the caesium atomic clock really does have a higher frequency 'in' the higher gravity potential, or wether:

the clock appears to be running faster than an identical clock at the lower potential.

Note that you use the word 'appears'...

So does the clock actually tick faster at elevation, or does it only appear to tick faster?

[alancalverd]

Yes another misuse of "ground state".  Please don't embarrass yourself this way.

Obviously the clock always ticks at the same rate because (a) it is the same clock (b) it has no knowledge of its gravitational potential and (c) whilst it would appear faster to an observer at a lower potential, it would appear slower to an observer at a higher potential: it obviously can't be both faster and slower, so it must be invariant and appear different according to the potential difference between source and observer.

Relativity. The name says it all.

[timey (OP)]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caesium_standard

By definition, radiation produced by the transition between the two hyperfine ground states of caesium (in the absence of external influences such as the Earth's magnetic field) has a frequency of exactly 9,192,631,770 Hz.

Sorry to embarrass myself as such... I have clearly strayed a million miles from the beaten path there, haven't I Alan?

*

If the clock does not really tick faster in the higher gravity potential, or slower in relative motion, then how can a person age in keeping with their time dilated clock?

If a clock does not tick faster at elevation, how can it be said that at a certain radius from Earth the SR time dilation, due to the required orbital speed for that radius, cancels out the effects of GR time dilation at that h from M?

[alancalverd]

The fact that all non-pendulum clocks, including biological processes, keep in step with everything else on the spaceship, suggests that what they are measuring, not the means of measurement, depends on where they are.

[timey (OP)]

If you are saying that clock's tick at the same rate in every gravity potential, then when stating that all non pendulum clock's, including biological processes keep in step with the spaceship, what exactly are you saying?

Surely there is no necessity to raise the subject of anything keeping in step with the spaceship if the rate of a clock stays the same everywhere?

...and, why would 'what one was measuring' have a bearing on how a biological system aged?

[alancalverd]

You raised the subject!

Time is what separates sequential events. If time is compressed or expanded, sequential events occur closer or further apart. Clock ticks and biological processes are sequential events.

There is obviously  a practical problem in measuring biological processes with useful accuracy, but we know that the predictions of GR work for all the other clocks that have been tested. 

[timey (OP)]

I raised the subject because you cannot say this:

Obviously the clock always ticks at the same rate because (a) it is the same clock (b) it has no knowledge of its gravitational potential and (c) whilst it would appear faster to an observer at a lower potential, it would appear slower to an observer at a higher potential: it obviously can't be both faster and slower, so it must be invariant and appear different according to the potential difference between source and observer.

...and then say this...

Time is what separates sequential events. If time is compressed or expanded, sequential events occur closer or further apart. Clock ticks and biological processes are sequential events.

...without contradicting yourself!

[alancalverd]

Take an elastic band and make 10 marks on it, 1 cm apart. Now stretch the band. There are still 10 marks between your fingers.

If two biological events are separated by 10 clock ticks on earth, they will be separated by 10 clock ticks at any other gravitational potential, as measured by the local clock. But an observer on earth might count 9 or 11 ticks of his own clock between observations of the events.

No contradiction, as long as you accept that time can be dilated or compressed by gravitational potential. If the observation were due to a gravitational effect on the clock rather than time, we would expect to see different results for different types of clock, but we don't. 

[GoC]

Take an elastic band and make 10 marks on it, 1 cm apart. Now stretch the band. There are still 10 marks between your fingers.

Yes and when you stretch the band you are stretching the electron cycle distance to change the size of the measuring stick. The extra distance for the measuring stick applies to the tick rate of the mechanical clock. The stretched band measuring stick also measures a different distance for a mile. The physics ratio remains the same in every frame. So there is no difference in reaction ratios of different frames. This also causes the speed of light to be the same in every frame. The detector cell expands down a gravity well to measure light created higher PE to appear blue shifted. It does not change frequency down the gravity well. It's not gravity potential but rather dilation of PE. The equivalence is dilation in GR for the measuring stick relative to c. The extra distance light travels as an angle different from perpendicular in SR relative to c. 
 

If two biological events are separated by 10 clock ticks on earth, they will be separated by 10 clock ticks at any other gravitational potential, as measured by the local clock. But an observer on earth might count 9 or 11 ticks of his own clock between observations of the events. 

Yes
 

No contradiction, as long as you accept that time can be dilated or compressed by gravitational potential. If the observation were due to a gravitational effect on the clock rather than time, we would expect to see different results for different types of clock, but we don't. 

The gravitational affect is equivalent to acceleration in SR. We can show by deceleration that gravity is not the key to tick rate. You create gravity with deceleration and increase your tick rate. This proves it is an energy change in density. Your electron clock and photon clock are confounded in every frame. The PE affects the distance light travels and the distance the electron travels in every frame. You do not get different results from different clocks. They both change tick rates by the same amount in every frame. The radii in GR dilation equals the vector speed of light in SR as the hypotenuse of the two legs for equivalence. Both clocks (mechanical and light) are acted on by energy c. What moves the electron? What moves the photon?

[alancalverd]

Here's where the "electron path " model breaks down. A simple clock consists of a quartz tuning fork. Quartz is anisotropic, which is why we can use its piezoelectric properties to excite and measure its vibrations.

Now if I accelerate the device along the length of the arms of the fork, they will stretch, so the clock will run slower. But if I accelerate it perpendicular to the length of the arms, they will get thicker, but the anisotropy of the crystal structure will give me a different  change in timekeeping.

You can also consider a circular escapement mechanism: accelerated along a radius  it will become elliptical and its moment of inertia will increase; accelerated along the axis, it remains circular, so its timing will be different. But GR  and experiment tells me that all clocks behave the same at a given gravitational potential so it must be time, not the means by which we measure it, that is warped by gravity,

[GoC]

Here's where the "electron path " model breaks down. A simple clock consists of a quartz tuning fork. Quartz is anisotropic, which is why we can use its piezoelectric properties to excite and measure its vibrations.

Now if I accelerate the device along the length of the arms of the fork, they will stretch, so the clock will run slower. But if I accelerate it perpendicular to the length of the arms, they will get thicker, but the anisotropy of the crystal structure will give me a different  change in timekeeping.

You can also consider a circular escapement mechanism: accelerated along a radius  it will become elliptical and its moment of inertia will increase; accelerated along the axis, it remains circular, so its timing will be different. But GR  and experiment tells me that all clocks behave the same at a given gravitational potential so it must be time, not the means by which we measure it, that is warped by gravity,

Yes of course many issues affect mass like heat and lack of heat. The model used for if not correct will give a wrong understanding. What model of electron cycle are you using? You say vibration I say flow based on the dilation of space as the PE and a clock measures the PE by position. All clocks will measure the same PE by position. Gravity is the same as acceleration in SR where the center of gravity is the inertial position in mass for equivalence.

You say warped I say dilated like a gradient onion ring where the dilation in the center of mass is greatest.

but the anisotropy of the crystal structure will give me a different  change in timekeeping.

Of course same as the blue shift created in SR with light created forward of the direction of travel and red shifted in the opposite direction of travel. When you mix SR and GR you will find two different affects for the equivalent results. Relativity is amazing!!

I use a different model for the electron as flow with a specific path. We are bound to bump heads. My design causes relativity.

[alancalverd]

There's no "electron cycle" involved in an atomic clock. We are looking for microwave absorption at an energy determined by the spin-spin interactions between electrons and nuclei.

[GoC]

There's no "electron cycle" involved in an atomic clock. We are looking for microwave absorption at an energy determined by the spin-spin interactions between electrons and nuclei.

And yet you do not understand the absorption process. Your model determines your understanding. What causes your vibration?

My understanding is the electron spins as a rotation out of the nucleus of the atom and the mirror image as it returns to the nucleus for one cycle. The dilation of space energy c determines the length of the cycle for creating and absorbing the photon wave. The length of the cycle determines the tick rate of the clock (measured by micro wave absorption).

The proton consists of positron and negatron electrons in a complimentary spin rotation that dilates the energy from the first atom. As the free electron travels out with c rotation momentum the dilation becomes contracted further away from the proton and the electron turns back to the proton to kick out the next cycle of an electron.

The electron distance traveled creates the size of the measuring stick in each dilation. And the distance is measured with each frames measuring stick to measure the same speed of light in every frame while changing the distance measured. c energy being of space and not mass. c creating the motion of electrons and photons at c.

My model is A description of A cause for relativity not necessarily the cause for relativity. What causes your vibrations?

Surely you must imagine something causing the vibrations as I imagine electron perpetual flow. A subjective model creates subjective limitations. Where does your motion come from in your model?

[timey (OP)]

Take an elastic band and make 10 marks on it, 1 cm apart. Now stretch the band. There are still 10 marks between your fingers.

If two biological events are separated by 10 clock ticks on earth, they will be separated by 10 clock ticks at any other gravitational potential, as measured by the local clock. But an observer on earth might count 9 or 11 ticks of his own clock between observations of the events.

No contradiction, as long as you accept that time can be dilated or compressed by gravitational potential. If the observation were due to a gravitational effect on the clock rather than time, we would expect to see different results for different types of clock, but we don't. 

If a clock only 'appears' to tick faster or slower and all clock's tick at the same rate, because 'how can a clock tick both faster and slower', as you said, and as I quoted you, then the concept of sequential time being stretched or compressed is null and void.

It is only by stating that the clock's are 'actually' ticking faster or slower, whereby the observation of the clock above running faster is measured as being faster because the lower clock is running slower and that slower time is what the observer with the lower clock is using to measure the higher clock.  And if one goes higher still, that when measuring the middle clock, one is measuring both the middle clock, and the lower clock by the faster rate of time of the higher still clock, where the higher still clock will observe that the middle clock is running slower, and the lower clock is running slower still, because the higher clock is measuring both of these lower clock's by the rate of the higher still clock's time.

Then we are looking at the dilation and contraction of time dilation and your elastic analogy has physical meaning.
To state the clock's as only 'appearing' to run at differing rates one implies that all clock's run at same rate, in which case your elastic analogy has no physical meaning.

My model views the situation as being that the clock's 'actually' run at differing rates in the gravity potential and seeks to attach the potential energy increases at elevation to the increase in frequency between electron transitions.
This would require a pe=mgh calculation where value of pe/m insures a 'blanket addition' of pe for any value m at any h from M. (It is appreciated that to describe the time dilation due to additional pe at each h from M would require further calculation)

In this manner all electron transitions of any atom should remain in proportion to each other as to energy increases at each h from M, and therefore different clocks types will all give the same result.

Taking this alternative view of electron transitions being excited by increase in energy back to the blackbody, Planck measured his increase in energy as joules per second, where the second is an invariant.  If one calculates the increase in energy held relative to the increase in frequency, as if an increase in frequency shortened the length of a second, then the quantum nature is negated.
Then by applying the remit of +energy=shorter seconds to the energy, or strength of a g-field, where the acceleration of gravity is due to time dilation, this competes the picture for the cyclic model that I propose.

...And before you say to me why bother, relativity explains thing perfectly well, agreed, however physicists write books and programs are broadcast, especially since the discovery that expansion appears to be accelerating, that perhaps a new approach is needed to get a deeper understanding.
For better or worse, here is an alternative.