[Europan Ocean (OP)]

yes hate for sin exists in the Bible but not for the ones who act sin out. It can sound like scripture if people quote it despite anger. Scripture says to pull people out of sin, hating even the clothing stained by sin. In Greece a man was sleeping with his father's second wife. He may have been widowed. This young man was disciplined. Today people would assume St Paul and God hated him.

There is an essential goodness in interpreting the NT, some already found in English tradition, but forgotten by non theists.

[alancalverd]

I have respect for people who say "because I think X, I joined group A to get  things done". I have nothing but contempt for anyone who says "because I belong to group B, I think Y and do Z".

No compunction about saying "your beliefs are wrong" if I can demonstrate why the hypothesis is not supported by the facts. But the problem with faith is that it is not susceptible to rational argument, so it is harmless at best and malignant at worst.

I've always found it odd that T S Eliot, despite his Anglo-Catholicism, wrote "the last temptation is the greatest treason: to do the right thing for the wrong reason". That's way out of even my league of disdain!

[Europan Ocean (OP)]

Would words like caritas, veritas, love, charity, justice, compassion or grace exist or matter if there were no Jews or Jesus? If we were pagans and atheists from such? Would pederasty still be normal?

[David Cooper]

Would words like caritas, veritas, love, charity, justice, compassion or grace exist or matter if there were no Jews or Jesus? If we were pagans and atheists from such? Would pederasty still be normal?

You think such recent religions invented those words? "Grace", perhaps, but it's very specifically about God's mercy. The other words exist independently in languages which had no contact with those religions. As for pederastry, it seems to be most commonly practised by people using religious institutions as cover for their activities.

[Europan Ocean (OP)]

Pederasty was normal in Rome and all the ancient world, except for Israel. So it is described in Wikipedia. Today without Israel, it would be an age old tradition. I think slowly and too slowly, the religious institution of the Catholic Church has learned to deal with abusers of the system. How many new reports are there?

[Danne]

Imho, the ultra neo liberalism is off the hook and it has / will have catastrophic impact on western culture. We'll either ruin our civilization, go in to a war with the east or become really misreable. Honeslty, it feels bad nowadays to be from a traditional christian family and get hated on for being against new ideas in the world.

Look up Gavin McIness. The guy always cracks me up. Also, he is speaking the truth.

[alancalverd]

Pederasty was normal in Rome and all the ancient world, except for Israel. So it is described in Wikipedia. Today without Israel, it would be an age old tradition. I think slowly and too slowly, the religious institution of the Catholic Church has learned to deal with abusers of the system. How many new reports are there?

Surely the problem is with abusers of children, not abusers of "the system" - what system?

And as for "how many reports" the real problem has always been how  many cases were unreported because religious hierarchies managed to suppress, protect, intimidate, or convince kids that it was normal.

By their deeds shall ye know them.

[Bill S]

I have respect for people who say "because I think X, I joined group A to get  things done"

So Nazis, Clan members and Jihadists are among those you respect?   

I suspected you were more open minded than you would have us believe.

[Europan Ocean (OP)]

Pederasty was normal in Rome and all the ancient world, except for Israel. So it is described in Wikipedia. Today without Israel, it would be an age old tradition. I think slowly and too slowly, the religious institution of the Catholic Church has learned to deal with abusers of the system. How many new reports are there?

Surely the problem is with abusers of children, not abusers of "the system" - what system?

And as for "how many reports" the real problem has always been how  many cases were unreported because religious hierarchies managed to suppress, protect, intimidate, or convince kids that it was normal.

By their deeds shall ye know them.

The system is the church, sermons and confessionals, introducing children to the sacraments, looking after camps and youth groups and the Catholic schooling system... Untowards men took positions they were not fit for, or even to gain access to children to abuse them. In Wikipedia, pederasty is the training of youths to be homosexual. It was normal in Rome...

I suspect the Catholic confessional system has been modified to be used to stop emerging abusers.

[alancalverd]

There's a world of difference between respect and agreement.

The founders of the organisations you named were far from stupid or irrational in promoting their own interests, which is why they flourished. Doesn't make them, or their followers, any more tolerable than dysentery - another of God's wonderful creations. But it does mean that you have to be pretty clever to eliminate them, just like any other social disease.

Lack of respect for the enemy has been the downfall of many campaigns.

[David Cooper]

Religious organisations can't be blamed for undesirable people misusing them for other ends - the predators will always go to where the children are easiest to find. They arguably can be blamed though for covering things up and shuffling paedophiles around instead of getting the police involved to rehouse them more appropriately, but I encountered a paedophile once (a sports coach) and he was one of the most friendly, kind people you could ever hope to meet. It was all an act, of course, but they become experts in winning friends and are then protected by loyalty from the people who they've fooled, friends of a forgiving disposition who are automatically inclined to defend them and make excuses for them. Gullibility is the problem - people see fake friendship as real and find it very hard to get their head around the fact that their valued friend who seems to suffer from a problem he can't control is actually a cold, clinical child abuser who doesn't give a damn about anyone other than himself. Many priests who aren't paedophiles are simple enough to believe that a friend who turns out to be a predator is a victim of Satan and would be best helped by God through a lot of prayer rather than punishment, and that's why the problem has been so bad in religious institutions - they mean well, but they provide ideal opportunities and cover for people who exploit their love of repentant sinners.