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How many times would a light ray be reflected inside a circular mirror?

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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: How many times would a light ray be reflected inside a circular mirror?
« Reply #100 on: 16/08/2022 07:31:02 »

Pattern simplification process to calculate number of reflection needed to get to first position.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: How many times would a light ray be reflected inside a circular mirror?
« Reply #101 on: 19/08/2022 03:11:20 »
Reflection of Light in a Circle 11 : Positive Simplification Process.
Describing positive simplification process to calculate number of reflection to reach first position.
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Re: How many times would a light ray be reflected inside a circular mirror?
« Reply #102 on: 23/08/2022 12:27:24 »
Quote from: chris on 22/08/2017 20:01:47
I think the answer will depend upon the quality of the mirror; even tiny losses will quickly turn all of the energy in the photons into heat.

Besides, equal mirrors cannot be created.
Or have we already reached such technologies and I am not right?
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Re: How many times would a light ray be reflected inside a circular mirror?
« Reply #103 on: 06/09/2022 07:47:11 »
Reflection of Light in a Circle 12 : Negative Simplification Method
This video explains an algorithm to calculate required reflection times to reach first position using negative simplification method.
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Re: How many times would a light ray be reflected inside a circular mirror?
« Reply #104 on: 19/10/2022 17:00:33 »
Reflection of Light in a Circle 13 : Hybrid Simplification Method
This video explains an algorithm to calculate required reflection times to reach first position using a combination of positive and negative simplification method.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: How many times would a light ray be reflected inside a circular mirror?
« Reply #105 on: 19/10/2022 17:03:03 »
Reflection of Light in a Circle 14 : Pattern Complexity Level.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: How many times would a light ray be reflected inside a circular mirror?
« Reply #106 on: 31/08/2025 12:49:45 »
I asked the OP question to some AI chatbots.
Let's say we have a circular mirror which is reflective in inner side. A laser beam is shone through a small hole on the mirror. How many times the laser beam would be reflected, if the incoming angle is 10 degrees?
The hole is large enough for the light ray to enter the circular mirror at various angle.

The last sentence is a clarification because a chatbot claimed that if the hole is too small, the light can only enter at 0 degree, and refuse to calculate.

ChatGPT gives a correct answer
Quote
Short answer: it depends what your ?10?? is measured against.

For a circular mirror, the ray?s angle to the tangent stays constant after every bounce. Each bounce advances the hit-point around the rim by a central angle , where  is the entry angle measured to the tangent. The ray returns to the hole after the smallest  with

m\,\alpha \equiv 0 \pmod{180^\circ}.

If your ?incoming angle = 10?? is to the tangent (i.e., grazing entry), then
.
.
Reflections = .

If your ?incoming angle = 10?? is the usual optics angle of incidence (to the normal), then the angle to the tangent is .
.
Reflections = 9-1 = 8.


In general: with entry angle  (to the tangent), the path is a regular polygon with N = 180 - gcd(α, 180) vertices, and the ray reflects N-1  times before exiting through the hole.


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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: How many times would a light ray be reflected inside a circular mirror?
« Reply #107 on: 31/08/2025 12:55:09 »
Here's Grok's thought.
Quote
The problem involves a laser beam entering a circular mirror through a hole, with an incoming angle of 10 degrees.
It's like a concave mirror, fully circular, with the hole on the circumference.
The beam reflects inside until it possibly exits through the hole again.
The "incoming angle" might be the angle between the ray and the radius at entry.
For the beam to exit, it must hit the hole again from inside, assuming the hole is a small point.

At each reflection, the ray's direction changes, affecting its path inside the mirror.
The incoming angle of 10 degrees is likely the angle with the normal, meaning it's almost along the radius.
In a circular billiard, the trajectory is periodic, depending on the initial angle.
The angle between the ray and the tangent at entry might be key, as a 0-degree angle would mean it's tangent and not entering.
Let's set coordinates with the center at (0,0) and the hole at (R,0) for clarity.

Hit points form a sequence: 160?, 320?, 120?, 280?, 80?, 240?, 40?, 200?.
After 8 reflections, the beam returns to the starting point and exits through the hole.
The number of reflections is 8, as it exits after reaching the hole again.
For α=10?, the central angle φ=160?, and 160/360=4/9, so the period n=9, confirming reflections=8.



It seems to use brute force to get the answer. So I asked again with incoming angle of 11 degrees.

Quote
To determine the number of times a laser beam is reflected inside a circular mirror when the incoming angle is 11 degrees measured from the normal line, we follow a similar geometric analysis as in the previous case, adjusting for the new angle.
Problem Setup
Mirror Geometry: The mirror is a perfect circle, reflective on its inner side, forming a concave cavity. We treat this as a 2D billiard problem in the plane of the circle.
Incoming Beam: The laser beam enters through a small hole on the mirror?s circumference at an angle of 11 degrees relative to the normal (the radius at the point of entry).
Reflection: The beam reflects off the inner surface according to the law of reflection (angle of incidence equals angle of reflection relative to the normal at each point).
Goal: Calculate the number of reflections before the beam exits through the same hole, assuming the hole is small but allows exit when the beam returns to the hole?s position with an appropriate angle.
Geometric Analysis
Coordinate Setup:
Place the center of the circular mirror at \( (0, 0) \).
Set the radius of the circle to \( R = 1 \) for simplicity (the number of reflections is scale-invariant).
Position the hole at \( (1, 0) \) (polar angle \( \theta = 0^\circ \)).
The normal at the hole is the radial line pointing toward the center, along \( (-1, 0) \).
Incoming Angle:
The angle of incidence is \( \theta = 11^\circ \), measured from the normal.
The incoming ray?s direction is determined relative to the normal. For an angle of 11? from the inward normal \( (-1, 0) \), the ray?s direction vector needs to be computed, but we focus on the reflection geometry.
Reflection in a Circular Billiard:
In a circular billiard, the ray reflects off the inner surface, and the central angle between consecutive reflection points depends on the angle of incidence.
The central angle \( \phi \) between two consecutive reflection points is given by:
     \[
     \phi = 180^\circ - 2\theta
     \]

where \( \theta \) is the angle of incidence relative to the normal.
For \( \theta = 11^\circ \):
     \[
     \phi = 180^\circ - 2 \times 11^\circ = 180^\circ - 22^\circ = 158^\circ
     \]

Periodicity of the Path:
After each reflection, the ray hits the circle at a point rotated by \( \phi = 158^\circ \) relative to the previous point.
Starting at the hole (\( \theta = 0^\circ \)), the angular positions of the reflection points are:
     \[
     0^\circ, 158^\circ, 316^\circ, 474^\circ, \ldots
     \]

Reduce angles modulo \( 360^\circ \):
\( 0^\circ \)
\( 158^\circ \)
\( 316^\circ \)
\( 474^\circ = 474^\circ - 360^\circ = 114^\circ \)
\( 632^\circ = 632^\circ - 360^\circ = 272^\circ \)
\( 790^\circ = 790^\circ - 360^\circ = 70^\circ \)
\( 948^\circ = 948^\circ - 360^\circ = 228^\circ \)
\( 1106^\circ = 1106^\circ - 360^\circ = 86^\circ \)
\( 1264^\circ = 1264^\circ - 360^\circ = 244^\circ \)
\( 1422^\circ = 1422^\circ - 360^\circ = 102^\circ \)
\( 1580^\circ = 1580^\circ - 360^\circ = 260^\circ \)
\( 1738^\circ = 1738^\circ - 360^\circ = 118^\circ \)
\( 1896^\circ = 1896^\circ - 360^\circ = 276^\circ \)
\( 2054^\circ = 2054^\circ - 360^\circ = 134^\circ \)
\( 2212^\circ = 2212^\circ - 360^\circ = 292^\circ \)
\( 2370^\circ = 2370^\circ - 360^\circ = 150^\circ \)
\( 2528^\circ = 2528^\circ - 360^\circ = 308^\circ \)
\( 2686^\circ = 2686^\circ - 360^\circ = 166^\circ \)
\( 2844^\circ = 2844^\circ - 360^\circ = 24^\circ \)
\( 3002^\circ = 3002^\circ - 360^\circ = 182^\circ \)
\( 3160^\circ = 3160^\circ - 360^\circ = 340^\circ \)
\( 3318^\circ = 3318^\circ - 360^\circ = 198^\circ \)
\( 3476^\circ = 3476^\circ - 360^\circ = 56^\circ \)
\( 3634^\circ = 3634^\circ - 360^\circ = 274^\circ \)
Continue until the angle returns to \( 0^\circ \mod 360^\circ \).
Finding the Period:
The ray returns to the starting point when the total angular displacement is a multiple of \( 360^\circ \):
     \[
     N \cdot 158^\circ = k \cdot 360^\circ
     \]

     \[
     N = k \cdot \frac{360}{158} = k \cdot \frac{180}{79}
     \]

Since \( \gcd(180, 79) = 1 \) (79 is prime, and 180 = \( 2^2 \cdot 3^2 \cdot 5 \)), the smallest integer \( N \) occurs when \( k = 79 \):
     \[
     N = 79 \cdot \frac{180}{79} = 180
     \]

After 180 reflections, the total angle is:
     \[
     180 \cdot 158^\circ = 28440^\circ = 79 \cdot 360^\circ
     \]

This confirms the ray returns to \( \theta = 0^\circ \) after 180 reflections.
Number of Reflections:
The ray hits the mirror at each reflection point. After 180 reflections, it returns to the hole?s position (\( \theta = 0^\circ \)).
In billiard problems, the number of reflections is typically the number of hits before the ray exits. Assuming the ray exits on the 180th hit (when it returns to the hole with an angle allowing exit), the number of reflections is:
\( 180 - 1 = 179 \), since the final hit is the exit.
Exit Condition:
When the ray returns to \( (1, 0) \), its direction must allow it to pass through the hole. In a circular billiard, the path is periodic, and the angle \( 2\theta = 2 \cdot 11^\circ = 22^\circ \) determines the chord angle.
Check if the path is closed:
     \[
     \frac{2\theta}{\pi} = \frac{22^\circ}{180^\circ} = \frac{11}{90}
     \]

Since \( \frac{11}{90} \) is rational, the path is periodic. The denominator (90) and the number of reflections (180) suggest a star polygon with 90 points, but since \( \gcd(11, 90) = 1 \), the path visits 90 distinct points over two full cycles (180 reflections).
The ray exits after 179 reflections, as the 180th hit allows it to leave the hole.
Comparison with Previous Cases:
For \( \theta = 10^\circ \), the answer was 17 reflections, where:
     \[
     \phi = 180^\circ - 2 \cdot 10^\circ = 160^\circ
     \]

     \[
     N = k \cdot \frac{360}{160} = k \cdot \frac{9}{4}, \quad N = 4 \cdot \frac{9}{4} = 9
     \]

This gave 9 hits, with 8 reflections before exiting, but the provided answer (17) suggests a different interpretation or possible error.
For \( \theta = 22.5^\circ \), we calculated 7 reflections:
     \[
     \phi = 180^\circ - 2 \cdot 22.5^\circ = 135^\circ
     \]

     \[
     N = k \cdot \frac{360}{135} = k \cdot \frac{8}{3}, \quad N = 3 \cdot \frac{8}{3} = 8
     \]

This gave 7 reflections before exiting.
For \( \theta = 11^\circ \), the larger number (179) is consistent with a less commensurate angle, leading to a longer periodic path.
Final Answer
The laser beam reflects 179 times before exiting the circular mirror when the incoming angle is 11 degrees measured from the normal line.
\[
\boxed{179}
\]


« Last Edit: 31/08/2025 13:01:52 by hamdani yusuf »
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: How many times would a light ray be reflected inside a circular mirror?
« Reply #108 on: 31/08/2025 13:05:42 »
Claude Sonnet answered.
Quote
This is an interesting optics problem! Let me work through it step by step.For a circular mirror with the reflective surface on the inside (like a circular cavity), we need to consider the geometry of reflections.Key considerations:The mirror is circular, so the normal at any point is radial (pointing toward/away from the center)Each reflection follows the law of reflection: angle of incidence equals angle of reflectionThe incoming angle is 10? (I'll assume this means 10? from the normal at the entry point)For a circular mirror, there's an important relationship: if a ray enters at angle θ from the normal, it will continue to reflect at the same angle θ from the normal at each reflection point, but the chord it traces will gradually rotate around the circle.The number of reflections depends on the rational relationship between the angle and the circle's geometry. Specifically, if we consider the angular displacement between successive reflection points, the ray will form a regular polygon inside the circle.For an incoming angle of 10? from the normal:The ray will trace a path that creates equal angular segments around the circleThe angular separation between reflection points is related to 180? - 2?10? = 160?The ray returns to its starting point when it has completed an integer number of these 160? rotations around the 360? circleSince 360?/160? = 2.25, the ray doesn't close after a small number of reflections. Instead, it will create a complex pattern.However, for practical purposes, the beam will eventually exit through the hole after a finite number of reflections. The exact number depends on:The precise geometry of the entry holeThe exact entry angle and positionImperfections in the real systemFor a theoretical perfect system with a 10? entry angle, the ray would reflect many times (potentially dozens) before eventually aligning with the exit hole, but the exact number requires more specific geometric parameters about the hole size and position.In real systems, factors like absorption, scattering, and hole geometry typically limit this to a much smaller number of observable reflections.

Please assume the shape is perfectly circular and perfectly reflective.
Quote
Thank you for the clarification! Let me work through this more precisely for a perfect circular mirror.For a perfectly circular mirror with perfectly reflective inner surface, I need to analyze the geometric pattern of reflections.When a ray enters at 10? from the normal, the key insight is that after each reflection, the ray maintains the same angle with respect to the local normal (due to the law of reflection), but the reflection points trace out a regular pattern around the circle.The critical parameter is the chord angle - the angle subtended at the center between successive reflection points. For a ray entering at angle θ from the normal, this chord angle is 2θ.For θ = 10?:Chord angle = 2 ? 10? = 20?Number of reflections before returning to start = 360?/20? = 18This means the laser beam will undergo exactly 18 reflections before returning to its starting point and exiting through the same hole.Here's why: The ray traces out a regular 18-sided polygon (18-gon) inscribed in the circle. After 18 reflections, it returns to the original entry point at the same angle, allowing it to exit through the hole.This is a beautiful geometric property of circular mirrors: the number of reflections is always 360?/(2θ) when this results in an integer, where θ is the angle from the normal at entry.So for a 10? entry angle in a perfect circular mirror: 18 reflections before the beam exits.
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Re: How many times would a light ray be reflected inside a circular mirror?
« Reply #109 on: 31/08/2025 13:07:59 »
Perplexity answered.
Quote
From the search results, here are the relevant points about laser beam reflections inside a circular or spherical mirror:

A laser beam inside a perfect reflective spherical or circular mirror theoretically can reflect infinitely many times because the light can keep bouncing inside without loss if the mirror is ideal (100% reflective). In practice, mirrors are not perfect, and the beam eventually dissipates or escapes through openings like the hole where the laser entered .

The number of reflections depends on the angle of incidence. If the angle of incidence is very low, like 10 degrees, the beam will reflect multiple times while traveling around inside the circular boundary.

The geometry of the reflections inside a circle means the beam will follow a chord path between reflection points on the mirror's inner edge. It will reflect repeatedly along this path until it either escapes through the hole or the mirror imperfections absorb the light.

A related physics problem mentions that at certain specific incidence angles (e.g. 45?), the beam satisfies conditions leading to many reflections. At lower or different angles, the path and number of reflections vary. The beam will continue reflecting as long as it does not hit the hole or lose intensity .

Since the hole size allows the laser beam to enter at various angles, the exact number of reflections before the beam either escapes or is absorbed would depend on the exact entry angle and hole position on the circular mirror.

The exact number of reflections for a 10-degree incoming angle cannot be given as a fixed number without knowing the mirror radius, exact hole position, and size, as well as considering the beam divergence and mirror imperfections. But in theory, the beam will reflect multiple times around the circle following the law of reflection with angle of incidence equal to angle of reflection .

If the hole were very small and the mirror nearly perfect, the beam could reflect many times (potentially dozens or hundreds) before escaping or absorption. If the hole is larger or the mirror less reflective, the number of reflections would be fewer.

Would a calculated estimate or further exploration into the geometric optics path calculation be helpful here?



Please assume the shape is perfectly circular and perfectly reflective.

Quote
Assuming the mirror is perfectly circular and perfectly reflective, and considering the laser enters through a small hole at an incoming angle of 10 degrees inside this circular boundary:

The laser beam will reflect infinitely many times inside the mirror without losing intensity because:

A perfectly reflective circular boundary causes the beam to follow a predictable path, reflecting at equal angles of incidence and reflection.

The beam traces chords inside the circle. With no energy loss, it never dissipates.

The hole allows the beam in only once, but after entering, since the mirror is perfect and circular, the beam cannot escape through the hole again unless it hits the hole directly on a subsequent reflection path.

Given an angle of 10 degrees, the beam path will likely form a closed or quasi-periodic polygonal pattern inside the circle, reflecting indefinitely.

This ideal scenario results in an infinite number of reflections unless the beam's internal path aligns exactly to exit the hole, which is an unlikely geometric coincidence.

In summary, the laser beam will reflect infinitely many times inside the perfect circular mirror with 10-degree incidence, as energy losses and escape through the hole are neglected under ideal assumptions .


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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: How many times would a light ray be reflected inside a circular mirror?
« Reply #110 on: 31/08/2025 13:09:10 »
Deepseek answered.

Quote
Let's analyze the problem step by step:

Given:

? A circular mirror (reflective on the inner side).
? A laser beam enters through a small hole at an angle of 10 degrees (with respect to the tangent at the point of entry).
? The hole is large enough for the light ray to enter at various angles (but we are given a specific angle of 10 degrees).

We need to find how many times the laser beam is reflected before it exits (possibly through the same hole or another, but typically we assume it might exit through the same hole if it returns).

Key Observations:

1. The path of the light inside the circular mirror will be a polygon inscribed in the circle (since each reflection follows the law of reflection: angle of incidence equals angle of reflection).
2. The angle between the incoming ray and the tangent at the point of entry is 10 degrees. This is the same as the angle between the ray and the radius (since the radius is perpendicular to the tangent). So, the angle with the radius is 90 - 10 = 80 degrees? Actually, careful:
   ? At the point of entry, the tangent is perpendicular to the radius.
   ? The incoming ray makes an angle of 10 degrees with the tangent. Therefore, the angle with the normal (which is the radius) is 90 - 10 = 80 degrees. So the angle of incidence is 80 degrees? Wait, that seems large. Actually, let's clarify:
   Typically, the angle of incidence is measured from the normal. So if the laser enters at 10 degrees to the tangent, then the angle to the normal is 90 - 10 = 80 degrees. So the angle of incidence is 80 degrees.

But actually, for the reflection inside the circle, the geometry is such that the angle between the chord (the path between two reflections) and the tangent is constant. In fact, the path is symmetric and the angle between the chord and the tangent is the same at every reflection.

1. Actually, a standard result for a circular mirror: if a light ray enters at an angle θ (with respect to the tangent), then the ray will hit the wall after rotating by an angle of 2θ along the circle (because the geometry is symmetric). So the successive reflections occur at points separated by an arc of 2θ.

Why?

? At the point of entry, the angle with the tangent is θ.
? By the law of reflection, the angle with the tangent is preserved.
? The chord subtends an angle of 2θ at the center? Let's derive:

Consider a circle of radius R. Let the light enter at point A at an angle θ with the tangent. The tangent at A is perpendicular to the radius OA. So the angle between the incoming ray and OA is(90 - θ). The light travels in a straight line to hit the circle at point B. At B,the tangent is perpendicular to OB. We want to find the arc AB.

In triangle OAB (isosceles with OA=OB=R), the angle at O is the central angle between A and B. The angle at A in the triangle is the angle between OA and the chord AB.This is the same as the angle between the radius and the chord. But the chord makes an angle θ with the tangent, and the tangent is perpendicular to the radius, so the angle between the chord and the radius is 90 - θ. So in triangle OAB:

? Angle at A = 90 - θ
? Similarly, angle at B = 90 - θ (by symmetry? Actually, at B the incident angle is also θ with the tangent, so similarly the angle between the chord and OB is 90 - θ).
? Therefore, the angle at O = 180 - 2*(90 - θ) = 2θ.

So the central angle between A and B is 2θ.

Thus, each chord (between reflections) subtends an angle of 2θ at the center.

Therefore, after n reflections, the total angle traversed along the circle is n * (2θ).

The light will exit through the hole when the total angle is an integer multiple of 360 degrees, because then it returns to the starting point.

So we need to find the smallest n such that n * (2θ) is a multiple of 360.

That is: n * (2θ) = 360 * k, for some integer k. Then n= (360 * k) / (2θ) = (180 * k) / θ.

We want the number of reflections until it exits. Actually, it exits after n reflections? Wait: after n reflections, the light has traveled n chords and is at the starting point (the hole). So it exits after n reflections? But careful: when it returns to the entry point, it exits without reflecting again? So the number of reflections is n, and then it exits.

But if it returns exactly to the hole after n reflections, it exits without that nth reflection? Actually, the reflection occurs at the boundary. So if it hits the hole exactly, it might exit without reflecting. So we need to see when the point is exactly the hole.

In this case, the hole is at the entry point. So we want the total arc length to be a multiple of 360.

So: n * (2θ) = 360 * k   =>   n = (180 * k) / θ.

We need n to be an integer. So we need (180 * k) / θ to be integer.

Given θ = 10 degrees.

So n = (180 * k) / 10 = 18 * k.

So for k=1, n=18. That means after 18 reflections, the light returns to the hole and exits.

But wait: does it actually reflect 18 times? Or does it exit after 18 reflections? Actually, when it returns to the hole, it is at the entry point. So it does not reflect there; it exits. Therefore, the number of reflections is 18.

But is this the first time? For k=1, n=18. So it reflects 18 times and then exits.

We can check: each chord subtends 210=20 degrees. After 18 chords, total angle = 1820=360 degrees. So it returns to the start.

Therefore, the laser beam is reflected 18 times before it exits.

Answer:

\boxed{18}

The laser beam will be reflected 18 times before exiting through the same hole.
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Re: How many times would a light ray be reflected inside a circular mirror?
« Reply #111 on: 31/08/2025 13:19:51 »
Qwen answered.
Quote
This is a classic problem involving **geometric optics and rotational symmetry** in a **circular mirror**.

We are given:

- A **circular mirror**, reflective on the **inside** (like a circular ring with mirrored inner surface).
- A **laser beam** enters through a **small hole**.
- The **angle of incidence** with respect to the tangent (or radius) is **10 degrees**.
- We are to determine **how many times the laser reflects** before it exits through the same hole (or possibly repeats its path).

But here's the key: since the hole is small and the laser enters through it, the beam will **reflect multiple times** inside the circle. The question is: **after how many reflections does it return to the hole and exit?**
Spoiler: show


---

### Step 1: Understanding the Geometry

When a light ray reflects inside a **circular mirror**, the path it traces depends on the **angle** it makes with the radius at each reflection.

Let?s assume:

- The laser enters at a point on the circle.
- It makes an angle of **10 degrees** with the **tangent** (or equivalently, **80 degrees** with the radius**, or **10 degrees** from grazing incidence).

But more importantly, in such circular billiard/mirror problems, the key parameter is the **deflection angle per reflection** or the **angular step** the beam takes around the center.

When a ray reflects inside a circle, the **angle between successive reflection points**, as seen from the center, is constant.

Let?s define:

- Let θ be the **angle between the chord (light path) and the radius** at the point of incidence.
- But more usefully: suppose the beam enters at an angle **α = 10?** **with respect to the tangent**.

Then the **angle between the incoming ray and the radial direction** is **80?**, so the **angle of incidence** is 80?.

But instead of focusing on angles with radius, we can consider the **turning angle** of the beam around the center.

---

### Step 2: Use of Angular Displacement per Reflection

In a circular mirror, when a light ray reflects, the **central angle** (angle at the center) between two consecutive reflection points is constant.

Let?s denote this angle as **Δφ**.

From geometric optics, if the beam makes an angle **α** with the **tangent**, then the central angle between reflections is:

\[
\Delta\phi = 2\alpha
\]

✅ **Important result**: For a circular mirror, if the ray enters at angle **α** to the **tangent**, then the angular separation between successive reflection points (around the center) is **2α**.

So in this case:

\[
\alpha = 10^\circ \Rightarrow \Delta\phi = 2 \times 10^\circ = 20^\circ
\]

So the beam reflects every **20 degrees** around the circle.

---

### Step 3: When Does the Beam Exit?

The beam will eventually **return to the starting point** (the hole) and exit **if the total angular displacement is a multiple of 360?**.

So we want the smallest integer **n** such that:

\[
n \times \Delta\phi \equiv 0^\circ \pmod{360^\circ}
\]

\[
n \times 20^\circ = 360^\circ \times k \quad \text{for some integer } k
\]

We want the **smallest** such **n**, which corresponds to the beam returning to the starting point.

So:

\[
n = \frac{360^\circ}{\gcd(20^\circ, 360^\circ)} = \frac{360}{20} = 18
\]

Wait: actually, since 20 divides 360 evenly:

\[
n = \frac{360}{20} = 18
\]

So after **18 reflections**, the beam has gone through:

\[
18 \times 20^\circ = 360^\circ
\]

and returns exactly to the starting point.



But the hole is there ? so instead of reflecting a 18th time, would it exit?

Wait ? let's trace:

1. Beam **enters** at point P.
2. Travels and hits mirror at point P₁ (20? from P): **1st reflection**
3. Then P₂ (40?): **2nd**
4. ...
5. After **17 reflections**, it?s at 17?20 = 340?
6. Then it travels to 360? = 0? = P: this is the **18th impact**

At this 18th impact, it hits the **hole** again.

Now, what happens? It could reflect, or it could exit.

But since the hole is open, and the beam is going **exactly backward** along the entry path (due to reversibility), it will **exit** rather than reflect.

Therefore, the **18th reflection does not occur** ? the beam **exits** upon reaching the hole.

So how many **reflections** actually occur?

It reflects at: 20?, 40?, ..., 340? ? that?s **17 reflections**.

Then it returns to the hole and exits.

Wait ? let?s count:

- Reflection 1: 20?
- Reflection 2: 40?
- ...
- Reflection k: 20k?

We want 20k ≡ 0 mod 360 → k = 18

So the **18th reflection** would be at 360? = 0?, the hole.

But at that point, instead of reflecting, the beam **exits**.

Therefore, only the **first 17 reflections** occur **before** returning to the hole.

But wait ? is that correct?

Actually, no. Let's think differently.

In circular billiards (which is analogous), the number of reflections before returning is:

\[
n = \frac{360^\circ}{\gcd(\Delta\phi, 360^\circ)}
\]

But only if the path is closed.

In our case:

- Δφ = 20?
- gcd(20, 360) = 20
- So number of distinct reflection points = 360 / 20 = 18

So the beam hits **18 distinct points** equally spaced every 20?, and then returns to the start.

But since it started by entering at one of these points, and the first reflection is at the next point, the **18th reflection** brings it back to the **starting point**.

So:

- Number of reflections = 18
- After the 18th reflection, the beam is heading directly back toward the hole, along the reverse of the entry path.

But now, after the 18th reflection **at the hole**, the beam would travel back **through the hole** and exit.

So the **18th reflection does occur** ? it reflects **at the hole**, but since the hole is open, can it reflect?

Ah ? here's the ambiguity.

If the hole is **small**, and the beam hits **exactly** at the hole location, whether it reflects or exits depends on alignment.

But in idealized problems like this, we assume that:

> The beam **exits** when it **returns to the hole** along the **reverse path**.

So if the beam arrives back at the hole **traveling in the reverse direction**, it exits.

Now, does it **reflect** at the hole, or just exit?

In standard treatment of such problems (e.g., in mathematical billiards), the number of reflections **before returning** to the starting point is considered.

But here's a better way:

Let?s suppose the beam enters at point P, and the first reflection is at P₁, then P₂, ..., until it comes back to P.

When it arrives back at P, it is going in the reverse direction, so it exits.

Therefore, the **number of reflections** is equal to the number of times it hits the mirror **excluding** the entrance, but **including** all bounces until it returns.

But the return to P is **not** a reflection ? it exits.

So if the beam hits the mirror at 18 distinct points in one full cycle, but the 18th point is the hole, then:

- It reflects at the first 17 points.
- Then travels to the 18th point (the hole).
- At the hole, instead of reflecting, it exits.

Wait ? no: the **first reflection** is at 20?, second at 40?, ..., the 18th reflection would be at 360? = 0? = P.

So the **18th reflection** occurs **at the hole**.

But the hole is not mirrored ? it's open.

So if the beam hits the hole location, and the mirror is missing there, it **cannot reflect** ? it just exits.

Therefore, **the 18th reflection does not happen**.

So only **17 reflections** occur?

But that contradicts symmetry.

Wait ? actually, the beam **enters** at P, goes to P₁ (20?), reflects: **1st reflection**

Then to P₂ (40?): **2nd**

...

Then to P₁₇ (340?): **17th reflection**

Then it travels from P₁₇ to P (0?), arriving at the hole.

Now, at this point, the beam is arriving at the **hole**, and its direction is such that ? due to symmetry ? it is going **exactly opposite** to the original entry direction.

Therefore, it **exits** through the hole.

So it **never reflects 18 times** ? only **17 reflections** occur.

But wait: 17 ? 20? = 340?, so the last reflection is at 340?, then it goes to 0? (hole), and exits.

So yes ? only **17 reflections**.

But is 20? the correct step?

Let?s double-check the angular step.

---

### Step 4: Confirming the Angular Step

When a ray enters a circular mirror at angle **α** from the **tangent**, the central angle between successive reflections is **2α**.

Yes ? this is a standard result.

For example:
- If α = 0? (grazing), Δφ = 0? ? not physical.
- If α = 45?, Δφ = 90?, so it reflects every 90?, returns after 4 reflections.
- Indeed: 4?90? = 360?.

So in that case, number of reflections before returning: 4, but does it reflect at the start?

No: enters at P, reflects at P+90? (1st), P+180? (2nd), P+270? (3rd), then goes to P+360?=P ? exits.

So only **3 reflections**?

But that can?t be right ? in a square-like path (diamond), it should reflect 4 times?

Wait ? in a circle, if Δφ = 90?, then:

- Enter at P
- First reflection: 90? ? 1st
- Second: 180? ? 2nd
- Third: 270? ? 3rd
- Fourth: 360? = P ? would be 4th reflection

But at P, it?s the hole ? so it exits instead.

So only **3 reflections**?

But that seems inconsistent with symmetry.

Alternatively, maybe the beam **does complete the cycle**, and we **count** the number of reflections until it returns, **including** the return if it reflects.

But in reality, it **can?t reflect at the hole**.

So the number of **actual reflections** is the number of times it hits the **mirrored part**.

So if the beam hits **n** distinct points on the circle before returning to start, and one of them is the hole, then the number of **reflections** is **n - 1**, because when it returns to the hole, it exits.

But in our case, the beam **does not reflect at the entry point initially** ? it enters.

The first reflection is at the next point.

So over one full cycle, it visits **18 points**: P, P+20?, P+40?, ..., P+340?, and back to P.

But it only **reflects** at the **non-entry** points ? but actually, it reflects at all points **except** when it enters or exits.

So:

- It enters at P (no reflection)
- Reflects at P+20?, P+40?, ..., P+340?: that?s **17 points**
- Then travels back to P ? exits

So only **17 reflections**

But wait ? P+340? is the 17th point: 20? ? 17 = 340? ? yes.

Then from 340? to 0? = P: this is the 18th segment.

So number of reflections = 17.

But 360 / 20 = 18, so there are 18 segments in the full closed path.

But since the beam starts and ends at the hole, it only traverses **18 segments**, but only **17 reflections** occur before exit?

No ? number of reflections equals number of segments minus 1? No.

Actually:

- Segment 1: entry → 1st reflection (20?)
- Segment 2: 20? → 40? (2nd reflection)
- ...
- Segment 18: 340? → 0? (P)

At the end of segment 18, it reaches P ? but no reflection.

So number of reflections = **18 - 1 = 17**?

No ? each segment **ends** with a reflection, **except the last one**.

Wait:

- After segment 1, it hits 20? → **1st reflection**
- After segment 2, hits 40? → **2nd reflection**
- ...
- After segment 17, hits 340? → **17th reflection**
- Then segment 18: from 340? to 0? ? arrives at hole, **no reflection**, exits.

So yes ? only **17 reflections**

But this would mean that the beam exits after 17 reflections, but the total angle traversed is 18 ? 20? = 360?? No.

Each reflection advances the angle by 20?, so:

- After 1st reflection: at 20?
- After 2nd: 40?
- ...
- After 17th: 340?

Then it goes to 360? = 0? ? so yes, closes the loop.

But 17 reflections → 17 steps of 20? → 340? total displacement.

Then the last leg is from 340? to 0? = 20? arc ? so still 20? step.

So the angular step is consistent.

But the **total rotation** after 17 reflections is 340?, and the 18th leg brings it back.

So to complete 360?, it needs 18 steps of 20?.

Hence, the closed path has **18 segments** and **18 reflection points**, but since one of them is the hole, and the beam enters and exits there, it only **reflects 17 times**.

But wait ? actually, the **18 reflection points** are all around the circle, including the hole.

But the beam **does not reflect at the hole** when entering or exiting.

So it only reflects at the other 17.

But is the hole one of the 18 points?

Yes ? the reflection points are at angles: 0?, 20?, 40?, ..., 340? ? 18 points.

But the beam **enters** at 0? (hole), so it doesn't reflect there.

Then it reflects at 20?, 40?, ..., 340? ? that's **17 points**.

Then from 340?, it goes to 0? ? but 0? is the hole, so instead of reflecting, it exits.

So it never reflects at 0?.

Hence, total reflections: **17**

But wait ? what if the beam **does** reflect at the hole? But the hole is open ? no mirror.

So unless the beam hits the mirror **near** the hole, but not at the hole, it won't reflect.

But in this case, because 20? divides 360? evenly, the beam **does** return exactly to the hole.

So it **exits** without reflecting.

Therefore, **number of reflections = 17**

But let?s test with a smaller angle.

Suppose α = 90? ? but that would mean beam is radial ? not possible.

Suppose α = 60? → Δφ = 120?

Then 360 / 120 = 3 points.

Enter at P, reflect at P+120? (1st), P+240? (2nd), then go to P+360?=P ? exit.

So only **2 reflections**

Similarly, for Δφ = 20?, number of distinct points = 360 / 20 = 18

Number of reflections before returning to start = **18 - 1 = 17**

Wait ? no: in the 120? example:

- Reflections at 120? and 240? ? 2 reflections
- Then exits at 0?
- So number of reflections = 2 = (360 / 120) - 1? 3 - 1 = 2 ? yes

Similarly, for Δφ = 90?, points every 90?: 0?, 90?, 180?, 270?

Enter at 0?, reflect at 90? (1), 180? (2), 270? (3), then go to 0? ? exit

So 3 reflections

And 360 / 90 = 4 points → reflections = 4 - 1 = 3

So general formula:

If the angular step Δφ divides 360?, then number of **reflections before exit** is:

\[
n = \frac{360^\circ}{\Delta\phi} - 1
\]

But wait ? in this case, the beam **does** return to the start after **k = 360 / Δφ** steps, but only reflects at **k - 1** points before that?



In our case, because of the hole, the beam exits after completing the path, so the number of reflections is **18**, and then it would reflect, but instead it exits.

No ? it can't reflect if there's no mirror.

So the only consistent answer is that the beam reflects **17 times**, then returns to the hole and exits.

But let's calculate the number of times it hits the mirror:

- It hits at: 20?, 40?, 60?, ..., 340? ? that's 17 points.

Then it hits at 0? ? but it's the hole, so no reflection.

So 17 reflections.

The points are at k?20? for k=1 to 17.

Then k=18 is 360?=0? ? hole.

So yes.

### ✅ Final Answer:

\[
\boxed{17}
\]

The laser beam will be reflected **17 times** before it exits through the hole.
It still give the same answer even when it's clarified that the incoming angle is measured from normal line.
« Last Edit: 31/08/2025 13:24:00 by hamdani yusuf »
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: How many times would a light ray be reflected inside a circular mirror?
« Reply #112 on: 31/08/2025 13:22:59 »
Le Chat answered
Quote
Let?s break down the problem step by step to understand how many times a laser beam would be reflected inside a circular mirror when shone through a small hole at an incoming angle of 10 degrees.
....
This means the laser beam will reflect 36 times before returning to the entry point, assuming no energy loss or absorption
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: How many times would a light ray be reflected inside a circular mirror?
« Reply #113 on: 31/08/2025 13:29:25 »
Kumi answered
Quote
Understanding the Problem

We have a circular mirror that's reflective on its inner surface. A laser beam enters through a small hole in this mirror at an incoming angle of 10 degrees. We need to determine how many times the laser beam will be reflected inside the mirror before it exits through the same hole.

Key Points:
1. Circular Mirror Reflective Inside: This implies the inner surface acts like the inside of a cylinder or sphere where light reflects.
2. Small Hole: Large enough for the light to enter at various angles, but small enough that we can consider it a point for exit purposes.
3. Incoming Angle of 10 Degrees: This is the angle between the incoming light ray and the tangent to the circle at the point of entry.

Visualizing the Scenario

Imagine a circle representing the mirror's cross-section. The light enters at a point on the circumference (let's call it point A) at a 10-degree angle to the tangent at A. After entering, the light travels in a straight line inside the circle, hits the inner surface at another point (B), reflects, and continues this process until it returns to A.

Determining the Reflection Pattern

The path of the light inside the circle can be understood by considering the angles:

1. Angle of Incidence: The angle between the incoming light ray and the normal (radius) at the point of entry. Since the angle with the tangent is 10 degrees, the angle with the radius (normal) is 90 - 10 = 80 degrees.
2. Reflection Law: The angle of reflection equals the angle of incidence. So, at each reflection, the light ray reflects at the same angle relative to the normal.

Calculating the Number of Reflections

The light will travel in a series of chords inside the circle. The angle between successive chords can be calculated based on the geometry.

Each time the light reflects, the angle it makes with the radius is the same (80 degrees), but the direction changes. The light will continue to reflect until it returns to the starting point (hole).

The number of reflections can be determined by how many times the light needs to reflect to complete a full 360-degree rotation around the circle.

The angle between two successive reflection points (as seen from the center) is twice the angle between the chord and the radius. Here's why:

- At the first reflection point (B), the angle between the incoming ray and the radius is 80 degrees. The reflected ray will make the same angle with the radius, so the total angle between the two chords (from A to B and from B to C) as seen from the center is 2 * (90 - angle with tangent) = 2 * (90 - 10) = 160 degrees.

However, this might not be the most straightforward approach. An alternative is to consider the central angle subtended by each chord.

Each chord corresponds to a central angle θ. The relationship between the angle of incidence (with the tangent) and the central angle is:

θ = 180? - 2 * (angle with tangent) = 180? - 2 * 10? = 160?.

This means that each reflection point is 160? around the circle from the previous one.

Starting at 0?, the sequence of reflection points will be at 160?, 320?, 480? (which is 480 - 360 = 120?), 280?, 440? (440 - 360 = 80?), 240?, 400? (400 - 360 = 40?), 200?, 360? (which is 0? - back to the start).

Counting these steps:
1. 0? to 160? - first reflection
2. 160? to 320? - second reflection
3. 320? to 120? - third reflection
4. 120? to 280? - fourth reflection
5. 280? to 80? - fifth reflection
6. 80? to 240? - sixth reflection
7. 240? to 40? - seventh reflection
8. 40? to 200? - eighth reflection
9. 200? to 0? - ninth reflection (returns to start)

Thus, the light completes its path and exits the hole after 9 reflections.

Verifying with a Smaller Angle

To ensure this method is correct, let's test with a smaller angle where the answer is known. Suppose the incoming angle is 0 degrees (light enters along the tangent).

- θ = 180? - 20? = 180?.
- This means the light goes straight across the diameter, reflects once at the opposite side, and returns to the start: 1 reflection. This matches our expectation.

Another test: incoming angle of 30 degrees.
- θ = 180? - 230? = 120?.
- Sequence: 0?, 120?, 240?, 360? (back to 0?).
- Reflections at 120? and 240?, then exits: 2 reflections. This seems correct because the light completes a triangle inside the circle.

Similarly, for 10 degrees, the sequence covers all points until it returns, resulting in 9 reflections.

Mathematical Generalization

The number of reflections (N) before the light returns to the starting point can be calculated by:

N = 360? / θ - 1, where θ = 180? - 2 * (angle with tangent).

But since θ = 180? - 2 * 10? = 160?,

360? / 160? = 2.25, which is not an integer, indicating that the light will complete an integer number of steps after which the total angle is a multiple of 360?.

We need to find the smallest integer N such that N * 160? is a multiple of 360?.

Find the least common multiple (LCM) of 160 and 360.

160 = 2^5 * 5
360 = 2^3 * 3^2 * 5
LCM is 2^5 * 3^2 * 5 = 32 * 9 * 5 = 1440.

Then N = 1440 / 160 = 9.

Thus, after 9 steps (reflections), the total angle is 9 * 160? = 1440?, which is 4 full rotations (1440 / 360 = 4), bringing the light back to the starting point.

Final Answer

After carefully analyzing the geometry and verifying with smaller angles, the laser beam will be reflected 9 times before exiting through the same hole when the incoming angle is 10 degrees.
It gives the correct answer after I reminded that the entry point can't have reflection.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: How many times would a light ray be reflected inside a circular mirror?
« Reply #114 on: 31/08/2025 13:31:31 »
Gemini answered
Quote
We'll assume the laser beam is a single light ray. The number of reflections of a light ray inside a circular mirror is dependent on the angle of incidence and the diameter of the circle. Since the angle is 10 degrees, the number of reflections is determined by the number of times 10 degrees can be added before reaching 180 degrees. ​Calculation ​The ray of light will follow a path that forms a star inside the circle. The ray will be reflected each time it hits the mirror. The angle of incidence is given as 10^\circ. According to the law of reflection, the angle of reflection is equal to the angle of incidence. This means that each time the laser beam hits the mirror, it will be reflected at an angle of 10^\circ relative to the normal at that point. The normal to the circle at any point is a line that passes through the center of the circle. Therefore, the path of the light ray will form a series of isosceles triangles. The base angles of these triangles will be 10^\circ. The angle the ray of light makes with the radius is the angle of incidence. The sum of the angles in a triangle is 180^\circ. So, after the first reflection, the ray makes an angle of 180 - (2 \times 10) = 160^\circ at the center. The ray will continue to be reflected until the path exits the hole it entered. We can determine the number of reflections by finding how many times the 160^\circ angle at the center can be added to itself before it is a multiple of 360^\circ. In other words, we are looking for the least common multiple of 160 and 360. We can also find how many times the initial 10^\circ can be added until it is a multiple of 180. Since the angle of incidence is 10^\circ, and the sum of the angles in a triangle is 180^\circ, the angle between two successive reflection points is 180 - 2 \times 10 = 160^\circ. The light ray will continue to reflect until it returns to the starting point. The number of reflections will be the number of segments of 160^\circ that fit into a full circle of 360^\circ plus the one from the exit point, so 360 / 20 = 18 reflections. Let's look at it another way. The number of reflections inside the circular mirror is determined by the formula: N = \frac{180^\circ}{2 \times \alpha} - 1 where N is the number of reflections and \alpha is the angle of incidence. However, this formula only works if 180 is a multiple of 2 \times \alpha. In this case, 2 \times 10 = 20, and 180 / 20 = 9. So we can expect a total of 9 reflections. However, the laser beam is a ray of light that enters through a hole and exits from the same hole. The ray will form a star pattern with a number of points equal to 180^\circ / \alpha. So, the number of reflections will be the number of points in the star minus 2 (the entry and exit points are not reflections). The number of reflections will be equal to 180 / \text{incoming angle} - 1. N = 180 / 10 - 1 = 18 - 1 = 17 reflections. ​Let's verify this. ​The angle of incidence is 10^\circ. ​The angle of reflection is also 10^\circ. ​Each reflection changes the direction of the ray. ​The path of the ray forms a series of isosceles triangles with base angles of 10^\circ. ​The angle subtended at the center of the mirror by the chord connecting two consecutive reflection points is 180 - 2 \times 10 = 160^\circ. ​To return to the starting point, the total angle subtended at the center must be a multiple of 360^\circ. ​We need to find the number of reflections, N, such that N \times 160^\circ is a multiple of 360^\circ. ​160 \times N = 360 \times k, where k is an integer. ​N = 360/160 \times k = 9/4 \times k. ​The smallest integer value for N is obtained when k=4, which gives N=9. This means the ray will complete a path of 9 reflections before returning to the initial point. ​However, the question states that the ray exits from the same hole. This means that the path has to return to the initial point, but it should not be reflected at the point where it exits. Therefore, the number of reflections will be 17. Let's look at it as a star with 180/10=18 points. The path of the ray of light forms a star shape with 18 points. The light ray enters the circle, is reflected 17 times, and then exits the circle at the 18th point, which is the same as the entry point. So the number of reflections is 17.
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Re: How many times would a light ray be reflected inside a circular mirror?
« Reply #115 on: 31/08/2025 15:11:15 »
Half marks to ChatGPT, at least, for asking the critical question - 10 degrees to what?

And if the sphere has nonzero thickness (as it must), the beam cannot entirely exit through the hole anyway.

Oh, the analytical power of a sceptical human brain!
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Re: How many times would a light ray be reflected inside a circular mirror?
« Reply #116 on: 01/09/2025 03:35:15 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 31/08/2025 15:11:15
Half marks to ChatGPT, at least, for asking the critical question - 10 degrees to what?

And if the sphere has nonzero thickness (as it must), the beam cannot entirely exit through the hole anyway.

Oh, the analytical power of a sceptical human brain!
In most physics textbooks on optics related to reflection and refraction, incoming angle is measured from normal line.

The laser beam can still enter through non-zero thickness mirror at non-zero angle as long as the hole also has non-zero diameter.

BTW, the first time I solved the problem almost 30 years ago, my reasoning was similar to Grok's.
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Re: How many times would a light ray be reflected inside a circular mirror?
« Reply #117 on: 01/09/2025 15:26:15 »
Let's accept the obvious simplification that the beam enters at an angle θ to the radius drawn through the middle of the hole, and that the hole is significantly wider than the primary beam so we are only dealing with perfect reflection and no diffraction.

If the shell has finite thickness, for the beam to exit the hole it must exit at the complement of the entry angle. The range of permitted angle depends on the ratio of shell thickness to diameter d, and as d/t decreases so does the range of permitted angle, whilst the number of required reflections  has the interesting property of being 1 for θ = 0 but tending to infinity for any other angle.

Anyone who has ever dropped a plectrum inside an acoustic guitar will be familiar with the problem. My old teacher could execute a brilliant θ = 0 manoeuvre but us poor mortals can spend a miserable half hour just shaking it at random to get the plectrum out.
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