The Naked Scientists
  • Login
  • Register
  • Podcasts
      • The Naked Scientists
      • eLife
      • Naked Genetics
      • Naked Astronomy
      • In short
      • Naked Neuroscience
      • Ask! The Naked Scientists
      • Question of the Week
      • Archive
      • Video
      • SUBSCRIBE to our Podcasts
  • Articles
      • Science News
      • Features
      • Interviews
      • Answers to Science Questions
  • Get Naked
      • Donate
      • Do an Experiment
      • Science Forum
      • Ask a Question
  • About
      • Meet the team
      • Our Sponsors
      • Site Map
      • Contact us

User menu

  • Login
  • Register
  • Home
  • Help
  • Search
  • Tags
  • Recent Topics
  • Login
  • Register
  1. Naked Science Forum
  2. On the Lighter Side
  3. New Theories
  4. Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« previous next »
  • Print
Pages: 1 ... 55 56 [57] 58 59 ... 101   Go Down

Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?

  • 2004 Replies
  • 660774 Views
  • 3 Tags

0 Members and 332 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • 11799
  • Activity:
    90%
  • Thanked: 285 times
Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #1120 on: 12/12/2023 16:19:33 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 12/12/2023 14:19:43
either "universal" means shared by all, or it means predetermined by the laws of physics
The adjective "universal" is determined by the definition of goal itself. Thus every goal shares the same characteristics that distinguish them from anything other than goal.

In this context I've defined goal as pursued condition. So every goal requires the existence of at least one pursuer. This requirement applies to every goal universally, without exception. If you think you have a better definition, let me know.

The adjective terminal poses the requirement that the condition is set at the furthest conceivable future, in the system under consideration.
Logged
Unexpected results come from false assumptions.
 



Offline alancalverd

  • Global Moderator
  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • ********
  • 21148
  • Activity:
    71.5%
  • Thanked: 60 times
  • Life is too short for instant coffee
Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #1121 on: 13/12/2023 08:23:10 »
You'd have to rewrite the language, invent a new dictionary, and change the mathematics of logic if you are to convince anyone that the could be a universal goal other than heat death. And you could then qualify as a future prime minister or archbishop.
Logged
Helping stem the tide of ignorance
 

Offline alancalverd

  • Global Moderator
  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • ********
  • 21148
  • Activity:
    71.5%
  • Thanked: 60 times
  • Life is too short for instant coffee
Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #1122 on: 13/12/2023 08:27:32 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 12/12/2023 14:58:49
Why do things exist?
There can be no logical reason why. We can investigate how, but why presumes an external agent with a purpose, which becomes a endlessly spiralling argument  as to why that agent exists.
Logged
Helping stem the tide of ignorance
 

Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • 11799
  • Activity:
    90%
  • Thanked: 285 times
Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #1123 on: 13/12/2023 15:10:06 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 13/12/2023 08:23:10
You'd have to rewrite the language, invent a new dictionary, and change the mathematics of logic if you are to convince anyone that the could be a universal goal other than heat death.
What makes you think that heat death is qualified to be a goal? How do you define goal?
Logged
Unexpected results come from false assumptions.
 

Offline alancalverd

  • Global Moderator
  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • ********
  • 21148
  • Activity:
    71.5%
  • Thanked: 60 times
  • Life is too short for instant coffee
Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #1124 on: 13/12/2023 23:17:38 »
Because it is universal and inevitable.
Logged
Helping stem the tide of ignorance
 



Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • 11799
  • Activity:
    90%
  • Thanked: 285 times
Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #1125 on: 14/12/2023 10:30:04 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 13/12/2023 23:17:38
Because it is universal and inevitable.
IMO, something that's inevitable cannot be a goal. I won't actively do something to pursue it.
You can't find the universal terminal goal is because you haven't decided the definition of goal in the first place, in this context.
Logged
Unexpected results come from false assumptions.
 

Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • 11799
  • Activity:
    90%
  • Thanked: 285 times
Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #1126 on: 14/12/2023 13:08:25 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 13/12/2023 08:27:32
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 12/12/2023 14:58:49
Why do things exist?
There can be no logical reason why. We can investigate how, but why presumes an external agent with a purpose, which becomes a endlessly spiralling argument  as to why that agent exists.
Why the sky on earth looks blue? Why iron is attracted to magnet?
Can't you answer the questions without presuming an external agent with a purpose?
Logged
Unexpected results come from false assumptions.
 

Offline alancalverd

  • Global Moderator
  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • ********
  • 21148
  • Activity:
    71.5%
  • Thanked: 60 times
  • Life is too short for instant coffee
Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #1127 on: 14/12/2023 15:20:25 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 14/12/2023 10:30:04
IMO, something that's inevitable cannot be a goal. I won't actively do something to pursue it.

But the entire universe is actively pursuing its heat death, and your metabolism is part of that pursuit.
Logged
Helping stem the tide of ignorance
 

Offline alancalverd

  • Global Moderator
  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • ********
  • 21148
  • Activity:
    71.5%
  • Thanked: 60 times
  • Life is too short for instant coffee
Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #1128 on: 14/12/2023 15:23:37 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 14/12/2023 13:08:25
Why the sky on earth looks blue? Why iron is attracted to magnet?
Can't you answer the questions without presuming an external agent with a purpose?

Beware of loose language! Physics explains how, not why. I get out of bed by swinging my feet to the floor - that's how. I get out of bed because I want to go to work - that's why. Only a philosopher would fail to understand the difference.
Logged
Helping stem the tide of ignorance
 



Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • 11799
  • Activity:
    90%
  • Thanked: 285 times
Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #1129 on: 15/12/2023 02:22:02 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 14/12/2023 15:20:25
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 14/12/2023 10:30:04
IMO, something that's inevitable cannot be a goal. I won't actively do something to pursue it.

But the entire universe is actively pursuing its heat death, and your metabolism is part of that pursuit.

Many people don't even know what heat death is. How can they actively pursue it?
Logged
Unexpected results come from false assumptions.
 

Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • 11799
  • Activity:
    90%
  • Thanked: 285 times
Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #1130 on: 15/12/2023 03:51:58 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 14/12/2023 15:23:37
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 14/12/2023 13:08:25
Why the sky on earth looks blue? Why iron is attracted to magnet?
Can't you answer the questions without presuming an external agent with a purpose?

Beware of loose language! Physics explains how, not why. I get out of bed by swinging my feet to the floor - that's how. I get out of bed because I want to go to work - that's why. Only a philosopher would fail to understand the difference.

Do you think the usage of the word why in my questions is incorrect?
What should be done to correct them?
Logged
Unexpected results come from false assumptions.
 

Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • 11799
  • Activity:
    90%
  • Thanked: 285 times
Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #1131 on: 15/12/2023 03:56:59 »
The Experiment That Taught Monkeys How to Use Money | Freakonomics
Quote
Stephen Dubner describes the research of Keith Chen and his experiments with the monkey economy. Monkeys were taught to use money by economists to buy different commodities, hilarity ensues. Recorded live in St. Paul.
There are something we can learn from other conscious agents who presumably have simpler thoughts, which are easier to analyze.
Logged
Unexpected results come from false assumptions.
 

Offline alancalverd

  • Global Moderator
  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • ********
  • 21148
  • Activity:
    71.5%
  • Thanked: 60 times
  • Life is too short for instant coffee
Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #1132 on: 15/12/2023 16:34:56 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 15/12/2023 02:22:02
Many people don't even know what heat death is. How can they actively pursue it?
By metabolising. ΔS > 0, always.
Logged
Helping stem the tide of ignorance
 



Offline alancalverd

  • Global Moderator
  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • ********
  • 21148
  • Activity:
    71.5%
  • Thanked: 60 times
  • Life is too short for instant coffee
Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #1133 on: 15/12/2023 16:37:17 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 15/12/2023 03:51:58
Do you think the usage of the word why in my questions is incorrect?
It's a common error to ask a scientist "why" when the only answer he can give is  "how". Priests will happily tell you why, but there is no evidence to support their assertions.
Logged
Helping stem the tide of ignorance
 

Offline alancalverd

  • Global Moderator
  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • ********
  • 21148
  • Activity:
    71.5%
  • Thanked: 60 times
  • Life is too short for instant coffee
Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #1134 on: 15/12/2023 16:38:47 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 15/12/2023 03:56:59
other conscious agents who presumably have simpler thoughts,
What basis do you have for that assumption? How do you measure the simplicity of a thought?
Logged
Helping stem the tide of ignorance
 

Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • 11799
  • Activity:
    90%
  • Thanked: 285 times
Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #1135 on: 16/12/2023 00:08:15 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 15/12/2023 16:38:47
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 15/12/2023 03:56:59
other conscious agents who presumably have simpler thoughts,
What basis do you have for that assumption? How do you measure the simplicity of a thought?
There are several measurements we can use. The depth of their neural networks. Their memory size after being compressed effectively.
Although those are just proxies to determine the capacity or effectiveness to achieve goals which defines consciousness.
« Last Edit: 16/12/2023 00:58:59 by hamdani yusuf »
Logged
Unexpected results come from false assumptions.
 

Offline alancalverd

  • Global Moderator
  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • ********
  • 21148
  • Activity:
    71.5%
  • Thanked: 60 times
  • Life is too short for instant coffee
Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #1136 on: 16/12/2023 11:56:02 »
None of which has anything to do with the simplicity of a thought.

The capacity to achieve a goal has very little to do with neurology and a lot to do with physique. Ask any one-armed boxer.
Logged
Helping stem the tide of ignorance
 



Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • 11799
  • Activity:
    90%
  • Thanked: 285 times
Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #1137 on: 17/12/2023 04:07:21 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 16/12/2023 11:56:02
The capacity to achieve a goal has very little to do with neurology and a lot to do with physique. Ask any one-armed boxer.
How do you define physique?
Why one-armed boxer can't achieve goals? What kind of goals do you mean?
Are you sure that one armed boxer would be easily defeated by average people?
Logged
Unexpected results come from false assumptions.
 

Offline alancalverd

  • Global Moderator
  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • ********
  • 21148
  • Activity:
    71.5%
  • Thanked: 60 times
  • Life is too short for instant coffee
Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #1138 on: 17/12/2023 09:19:40 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 17/12/2023 04:07:21
Are you sure that one armed boxer would be easily defeated by average people?
There are some fine videos of an armless pilot going about her business in an unmodified airplane. But the likelihood of a one-armed boxer beating a champion with two arms is very small. 
Logged
Helping stem the tide of ignorance
 

Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • 11799
  • Activity:
    90%
  • Thanked: 285 times
Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #1139 on: 17/12/2023 11:40:42 »
People with dementia have significantly reduced functioning neurons are less likely to achieve goals, compared to people without it, assuming that everything else is equal.
There's a video showing a BJJ fighter against a body builder in an MMA match. The body builder arguably has a better physique. But he was defeated in the match.
« Last Edit: 17/12/2023 11:50:28 by hamdani yusuf »
Logged
Unexpected results come from false assumptions.
 



  • Print
Pages: 1 ... 55 56 [57] 58 59 ... 101   Go Up
« previous next »
Tags: philosophy  / life  / goals 
 
There was an error while thanking
Thanking...
  • SMF 2.0.15 | SMF © 2017, Simple Machines
    Privacy Policy
    SMFAds for Free Forums
  • Naked Science Forum ©

Page created in 0.807 seconds with 65 queries.

  • Podcasts
  • Articles
  • Get Naked
  • About
  • Contact us
  • Advertise
  • Privacy Policy
  • Subscribe to newsletter
  • We love feedback

Follow us

cambridge_logo_footer.png

©The Naked Scientists® 2000–2017 | The Naked Scientists® and Naked Science® are registered trademarks created by Dr Chris Smith. Information presented on this website is the opinion of the individual contributors and does not reflect the general views of the administrators, editors, moderators, sponsors, Cambridge University or the public at large.