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  4. Universal Utopia?
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Universal Utopia?

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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Universal Utopia?
« Reply #40 on: 10/06/2018 22:45:49 »
Quote
This scenario relies on implicit assumption that environmental changes never get severe enough to wipe out all copies of those self replicating structural things. For brevity, I will call this "self replicating structural things"    organism from now on. Feel free to suggest a better name.
When all resources nearby have been depleted by copies of early organism, replicating ability doesn't work anymore. Until some copies develop ability to forcefully break down their relatives back into raw materials and use them to replicate themselves. Those were the first predators.
Necessary resources to make replicas may be scattered around a large area, which makes it laborious to collect them. One advantage of being a predator is that this activity can be skipped.
« Last Edit: 11/06/2018 11:35:44 by hamdani yusuf »
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Universal Utopia?
« Reply #41 on: 11/06/2018 04:39:19 »
Quote from: Thebox on 09/06/2018 18:24:15
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 09/06/2018 05:42:37
Let's take a chess game for an example. The priorities, in my opinion (sorted from highest) :
1. Checkmate the opponent's king.
2. Prevent checkmate on own king.
3. Preserve time and energy.
Try to get #1. If it's impossible, try to get #2 (draw). If it's also impossible, try to get #3 by resigning.

  Option 4, stalemate.
I think stalemate is included in #2.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Universal Utopia?
« Reply #42 on: 11/06/2018 12:24:11 »
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When all resources nearby have been depleted by copies of early organism, replicating ability doesn't work anymore. Until some copies develop ability to forcefully break down their relatives back into raw materials and use them to replicate themselves. Those were the first predators.
This creates arms race between predator and prey. There are new competitions, not only between predator and prey, but also among predators and among preys.
The arms race boosts development of weapon and armor, and some other features that give advantages, such as locomotion, sensory ability, responsiveness.
« Last Edit: 13/06/2018 10:42:59 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Universal Utopia?
« Reply #43 on: 11/06/2018 21:44:42 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 11/06/2018 12:24:11
Quote
When all resources nearby have been depleted by copies of early organism, replicating ability doesn't work anymore. Until some copies develop ability to forcefully break down their relatives back into raw materials and use them to replicate themselves. Those were the first predators.
This creates arms race between predator and prey.
Why can't predator and prey get along ?

Is it just nature?

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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Universal Utopia?
« Reply #44 on: 13/06/2018 10:28:23 »
Quote from: Thebox on 11/06/2018 21:44:42
Why can't predator and prey get along ?

Is it just nature?
predators who consume prey tend to survive better then who don't.
In the game of life, the reward is survival. The punishment is extinction.
« Last Edit: 13/06/2018 10:32:46 by hamdani yusuf »
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Universal Utopia?
« Reply #45 on: 13/06/2018 11:30:56 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 11/06/2018 12:24:11
Quote
When all resources nearby have been depleted by copies of early organism, replicating ability doesn't work anymore. Until some copies develop ability to forcefully break down their relatives back into raw materials and use them to replicate themselves. Those were the first predators.
This creates arms race between predator and prey. There are new competitions, not only between predator and prey, but also among predators and among preys.
The arms race boosts development of weapon and armor, and some other features that give advantages, such as locomotion, sensory ability, responsiveness.
Beside predatory behavior, organisms also develops in other direction, which is cooperation. It's true that there is strength in number.
The simplest form of cooperation can be seen when organisms with same genetic formation get together in the same place to form a colony. Some advantage from this behavior is that ratio of surface area per unit mass is decreased, which may lead to reduced threat and heat loss.
An individu of multicellular organisms is basically a colony of genetically identical cells with specific functions.
« Last Edit: 15/06/2018 15:56:42 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Universal Utopia?
« Reply #46 on: 13/06/2018 16:02:30 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 13/06/2018 11:30:56
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 11/06/2018 12:24:11
Quote
When all resources nearby have been depleted by copies of early organism, replicating ability doesn't work anymore. Until some copies develop ability to forcefully break down their relatives back into raw materials and use them to replicate themselves. Those were the first predators.
This creates arms race between predator and prey. There are new competitions, not only between predator and prey, but also among predators and among preys.
The arms race boosts development of weapon and armor, and some other features that give advantages, such as locomotion, sensory ability, responsiveness.
Beside predatory behavior, organisms also develops in other direction, which is cooperation. It's true that there is strength in number.
Yes there is strength in numbers, 1+1=2 but also there is weakness in numbers because 1-1 = 0
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Universal Utopia?
« Reply #47 on: 14/06/2018 15:33:02 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 13/06/2018 11:30:56
The simplest form of cooperation can be seen when organisms with same genetic formation get together in the same place to form a colony. Some advantage from this behavior is that ratio of surface area per unit mass is decreased, which may lead to reduced threat and heat loss.
The next step for cooperating more effectively is by splitting duties among colony members. Some responsible for defense, some for digesting food, etc. Though each cell are genetically identical, they can develop differently due to Gene activation by their surrounding.
This requires longer and more complex genetic materials in each organism's cell.
« Last Edit: 14/06/2018 23:12:40 by hamdani yusuf »
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Universal Utopia?
« Reply #48 on: 15/06/2018 03:39:33 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 14/06/2018 15:33:02
This requires longer and more complex genetic materials in each organism's cell.
Longer and more complex code means harder to replicate correctly. Assuming that error rate is constant, having more data means more error.
At some point, it would be beneficial to have redundancy for those code storage, where the advantage for having a duplicate outweight the cost for additional resources to make it.
In computer world, we can see it in RAID technology. While in biology, we found it in diploid and polyploid organisms.
« Last Edit: 15/06/2018 06:20:32 by hamdani yusuf »
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Universal Utopia?
« Reply #49 on: 15/06/2018 06:44:08 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 14/06/2018 15:33:02
The next step for cooperating more effectively is by splitting duties among colony members. Some responsible for defense, some for digesting food, etc.
Different environmental condition may lead to diverging ways of life, which require different genetic structure.
Cooperation may also happen between organisms with different genetic structure.
One of earliest known example is organelles in eukaryotic cells which is thought as result of endosymbiotic relationship.
« Last Edit: 15/06/2018 08:00:36 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Universal Utopia?
« Reply #50 on: 15/06/2018 08:20:34 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 15/06/2018 03:39:33
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 14/06/2018 15:33:02
This requires longer and more complex genetic materials in each organism's cell.
Longer and more complex code means harder to replicate correctly. Assuming that error rate is constant, having more data means more error.
At some point, it would be beneficial to have redundancy for those code storage, where the advantage for having a duplicate outweight the cost for additional resources to make it.
In computer world, we can see it in RAID technology. While in biology, we found it in diploid and polyploid organisms.
Environmental changes and arms race among and between predators and preys pushed organisms to be better at what they do for a living.
Assuming that random mutation creates more harmful effect than beneficial ones, exchanging genetic materials may improve distribution of those beneficial Gene. It allows good genes acquired by different individual organisms to be accumulated in each cell of their offsprings.
This was the start of sexual reproduction.
« Last Edit: 15/06/2018 11:24:04 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Universal Utopia?
« Reply #51 on: 15/06/2018 11:21:32 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 15/06/2018 08:20:34
Assuming that random mutation creates more harmful effect than beneficial ones, exchanging genetic materials may improve distribution of those beneficial Gene. It allows good genes acquired by different individual organisms to be accumulated in each cell of their offsprings.
In arms race situation, slightly different changes may result in life and death situation. Slightly slower or slightly weaker may cost one's life. This amplifies the push to evolve to be the fittest.
« Last Edit: 15/06/2018 13:25:33 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Universal Utopia?
« Reply #52 on: 15/06/2018 11:28:43 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 15/06/2018 08:20:34
Environmental changes and arms race among and between predators and preys pushed organisms to be better at what they do for a living.
Incentive is motivation .
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Re: Universal Utopia?
« Reply #53 on: 15/06/2018 11:29:27 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 15/06/2018 11:21:32
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 15/06/2018 08:20:34
Assuming that random mutation creates more harmful effect than beneficial ones, exchanging genetic materials may improve distribution of those beneficial Gene. It allows good genes acquired by different individual organisms to be accumulated in each cell of their offsprings.
In arms race situation, slightly different changes may result in life and death situation. Slightly slower or slightly weaker may cause one's life. This amplifies the push to evolve to be the fittest.
Time contraction is a must.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Universal Utopia?
« Reply #54 on: 15/06/2018 15:22:47 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 15/06/2018 11:21:32
In arms race situation, slightly different changes may result in life and death situation. Slightly slower or slightly weaker may cost one's life. This amplifies the push to evolve to be the fittest.
Just like any other systems, organisms also consist of inputs, process, and output. They collect information from their environment, process it in internal system, and then do actions based on its output.
« Last Edit: 15/06/2018 21:26:41 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Universal Utopia?
« Reply #55 on: 15/06/2018 18:14:38 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 15/06/2018 15:22:47
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 15/06/2018 11:21:32
In arms race situation, slightly different changes may result in life and death situation. Slightly slower or slightly weaker may cost one's life. This amplifies the push to evolve to be the fittest.
Just like any other systems, organisms also consist of inputs, process, and output. They collect information from their environment, process it in internal system, and then do action based on it's output.

A bit like an internet bot would process the words then give a response. 
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Universal Utopia?
« Reply #56 on: 15/06/2018 23:45:36 »
Quote from: Thebox on 15/06/2018 18:14:38
A bit like an internet bot would process the words then give a response.
Yes, that's also a system.
For biological systems, the inputs can be chemical compounds, physical property such as temperature, pressure, light. Those inputs are sensed by   sensitive part of organisms which  convert them into an internal process, usually electrochemical type. After interaction with other internal processes, some actions are done by actuator unit, such as chemical release, electricity, and movements.
« Last Edit: 16/06/2018 06:26:07 by hamdani yusuf »
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Offline captcass

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Re: Universal Utopia?
« Reply #57 on: 16/06/2018 03:25:38 »
Quote from: Thebox on 04/06/2018 10:10:29
In an ideal universe, there would be no motion other than that of ourselves or other species.  Obviously this removes any concern about cosmic collisions.
Secondly the weather experience would not be random, it would be scheduled and conditions would never be too extreme, there would be a fine balance.
Also I would have a steady state entropy where the balance always remained an equilibrium.
Sounds kinda dull @Thebox. :)
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Offline Colin2B

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Re: Universal Utopia?
« Reply #58 on: 16/06/2018 05:37:52 »
Quote from: captcass on 16/06/2018 03:25:38
Sounds kinda dull @Thebox. :)
And kinda wrong

Quote from: Thebox on 04/06/2018 10:10:29
Secondly the weather experience would not be random,
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Universal Utopia?
« Reply #59 on: 16/06/2018 07:20:52 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 15/06/2018 23:45:36
Those inputs are sensed by   sensitive part of organisms which  convert them into an internal process, usually electrochemical type. After interaction with other internal processes, some actions are done by actuator unit, such as chemical release, electricity, and movements.
In order to survive, organisms must have basic functions, I.e. finding food, avoid danger, reproduce. For sexual organisms, finding mates becomes crucial.
So they need the ability to distinguish objects in their surrounding and categorize them, so they can choose appropriate actions.
« Last Edit: 16/06/2018 11:46:13 by hamdani yusuf »
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