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Universal Utopia?

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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Universal Utopia?
« Reply #120 on: 05/02/2020 01:18:28 »
Following is the description of money by Wikipedia article.
Quote
Money is any item or verifiable record that is generally accepted as payment for goods and services and repayment of debts, such as taxes, in a particular country or socio-economic context.[1][2][3] The main functions of money are distinguished as: a medium of exchange, a unit of account, a store of value and sometimes, a standard of deferred payment.[4][5] Any item or verifiable record that fulfils these functions can be considered as money.
From the description above, and the law of diminishing marginal utility, we can draw a conclusion that in a general term, money is a tool to help tracking balance of supply and demand.
Quote
The concept in cardinal utility theory that marginal utilities diminish across the ranges relevant to decision-making is called the "law of diminishing marginal utility" (and is also known as Gossen's First Law). This refers to the increase in utility an individual gains from increasing their consumption of a particular good. "The law of diminishing marginal utility is at the heart of the explanation of numerous economic phenomena, including time preference and the value of goods ... The law says, first, that the marginal utility of each homogenous unit decreases as the supply of units increases (and vice versa); second, that the marginal utility of a larger-sized unit is greater than the marginal utility of a smaller-sized unit (and vice versa). The first law denotes the law of diminishing marginal utility, the second law denotes the law of increasing total utility."[14]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marginal_utility#Diminishing_marginal_utility

This is in line with the etymology of money itself as follow:
Quote
Etymology
The word "money" is believed to originate from a temple of Juno, on Capitoline, one of Rome's seven hills. In the ancient world Juno was often associated with money. The temple of Juno Moneta at Rome was the place where the mint of Ancient Rome was located.[10] The name "Juno" may derive from the Etruscan goddess Uni (which means "the one", "unique", "unit", "union", "united") and "Moneta" either from the Latin word "monere" (remind, warn, or instruct) or the Greek word "moneres" (alone, unique).
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Universal Utopia?
« Reply #121 on: 05/02/2020 07:23:50 »
Here are some illustrations.
The air is very important for human life. Without it, human will die in a few minutes. But since it is abundant on most places where humans live, we don't have to spend money to breathe it.
In some places where breathable clean air is scarce, such as underwater environment, polluted places, we need tools to provide it. If we can't build the tools by ourselves, we ask someone elses to build them. That's when we need money to track the usage of resources to build the tools to provide us breathable air.

In physical currency, the money spender and receiver acts as distributed data processors who track the balance of supply and demand. This system rely on the assumptions that transaction actors don't change the amount of currency in existence. They don't create or destroy their own money.
In electronic transactions using banking systems, they are banks' data servers. In cryptocurrencies, they are crypto miners' computers.
« Last Edit: 09/03/2020 09:50:08 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Universal Utopia?
« Reply #122 on: 08/02/2020 11:25:00 »
By inventing money, human has increased the usefulness of resources by an ability to distribute them more effectively and efficiently.
A lot of resources have limited usefulness in time. They become spoiled not long after they are produced. If excess of production can not be distributed  properly, they will be wasted. So improved efficiency due to mass production couldn't be realized.

Inventors need resources to build their inventions. The money from financiers help redistribution of resources required by the inventions which produce more useful resources.

From an economic agent's perspective, borrowing or lending money can be seen as redistributing resources with themselves in different times. For example, if I borrow money to buy a car now, the future me needs to work harder to earn more money to pay for the price, plus some interest.
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Re: Universal Utopia?
« Reply #123 on: 09/03/2020 22:45:33 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 28/01/2020 10:17:42
With the rise of AI, especially potential advancement to AGI, many people worry about unemployment and growing income inequality. But let's not forget that getting a job is just an instrumental goal to have income, which in turn is an instrumental goal to get services from other people as economic agents, which in turn is an instrumental goal to get resources required to survive, such as food, clothing, housing, medical assistance, etc. There should be no obligation to fulfill those instrumental goals as long as the terminal goal is achieved. Some alternative instrumental goals I can think of e.g. Self sustained housings / artificial biosphere which recycle its resources such as water, carbon and oxygen using renewable energy. Tools can be made using 3D printing technology.
The ultimate goal can be found by starting from an important thing that we think we must do, and then answer the question why we have to do it. Keep asking why to the answer iteratively until we run out of excuse. Often times it's helpful to also try to answer why not in each iteration, just to give us a more complete picture to the issue at hand.
This is similar to 5 whys method which is widely used in manufacturing process. The difference is that here we don't stop at any arbitrary number of steps.
Quote
Five whys (or 5 whys) is an iterative interrogative technique used to explore the cause-and-effect relationships underlying a particular problem.[1] The primary goal of the technique is to determine the root cause of a defect or problem by repeating the question "Why?". Each answer forms the basis of the next question. The "five" in the name derives from an anecdotal observation on the number of iterations needed to resolve the problem.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_whys

Quote
Level 1 -- Why are you in business?
Efforts and courage are not enough without purpose and direction. -- John F. Kennedy
Quote
Level 2 -- Why do I work?
Choose a job you love and never work a day in your life. - Confucius
https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/246847
Religious preachers insist that science can never answer the why question while admitting that it can answer the other questions. Some scientists even have followed suit and expressed that why question isn't a scientific question.
I'll try to show that this exception is baseless. At least, science has provided us methods to determine if some proposed answers to the why question are compatible with perceived objective reality. When they don't, we can reasonably reject them and then go to find some alternatives.
« Last Edit: 10/03/2020 02:31:52 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Universal Utopia?
« Reply #124 on: 10/03/2020 04:29:49 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 09/03/2020 22:45:33
The ultimate goal can be found by starting from an important thing that we think we must do, and then answer the question why we have to do it. Keep asking why to the answer iteratively until we run out of excuse. Often times it's helpful to also try to answer why not in each iteration, just to give us a more complete picture to the issue at hand.

Every starting point will eventually lead to the universal ultimate/terminal goal for any conscious thinker. This comes with realization that any conceivable goal can be deceiving, except the thinker's own existence.

Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 25/02/2020 08:23:17
Decartes demonstrated by reductio ad absurdum, that if a thinker rejects its own existence, it leads to contradiction.

Quote
At the beginning of the second meditation, having reached what he considers to be the ultimate level of doubt—his argument from the existence of a deceiving god—Descartes examines his beliefs to see if any have survived the doubt. In his belief in his own existence, he finds that it is impossible to doubt that he exists. Even if there were a deceiving god (or an evil demon), one's belief in their own existence would be secure, for there is no way one could be deceived unless one existed in order to be deceived.

But I have convinced myself that there is absolutely nothing in the world, no sky, no earth, no minds, no bodies. Does it now follow that I, too, do not exist? No. If I convinced myself of something [or thought anything at all], then I certainly existed. But there is a deceiver of supreme power and cunning who deliberately and constantly deceives me. In that case, I, too, undoubtedly exist, if he deceives me; and let him deceive me as much as he can, he will never bring it about that I am nothing, so long as I think that I am something. So, after considering everything very thoroughly, I must finally conclude that the proposition, I am, I exist, is necessarily true whenever it is put forward by me or conceived in my mind. (AT VII 25; CSM II 16–17[v])

There are three important notes to keep in mind here. First, he claims only the certainty of his own existence from the first-person point of view — he has not proved the existence of other minds at this point. This is something that has to be thought through by each of us for ourselves, as we follow the course of the meditations. Second, he does not say that his existence is necessary; he says that if he thinks, then necessarily he exists (see the instantiation principle). Third, this proposition "I am, I exist" is held true not based on a deduction (as mentioned above) or on empirical induction but on the clarity and self-evidence of the proposition. Descartes does not use this first certainty, the cogito, as a foundation upon which to build further knowledge; rather, it is the firm ground upon which he can stand as he works to discover further truths.[35] As he puts it:

Archimedes used to demand just one firm and immovable point in order to shift the entire earth; so I too can hope for great things if I manage to find just one thing, however slight, that is certain and unshakable. (AT VII 24; CSM II 16)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cogito,_ergo_sum#Interpretation
We can continue Decartes' work by using this first certainty, the cogito, as a foundation upon which to build further knowledge. The advancement of science so far has given us the refined model of ourselves (human thinkers) with ever increasing accuracy and precision. It also offers plausible explanation on what we are made of, when and where we came from, how we emerge from basic chemical ingredients going through process of duplication, random change and natural selection.
It has shown beyond reasonable doubt that other human beings are slightly modified copy of ourselves (human thinkers), which means that their existence is the extension of our own. I have described this line of thinking in another tread.
Quote
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 25/02/2020 03:40:08
For any true statement, there are infinitely many alternatives that are false.
Since the existence of the thinker is the only thing that can't be doubted, it must be defended at all cost.
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 16/11/2018 23:48:22
Finally we get to the last question: how. There are some basic strategies to preserve information which I borrow from IT business:
Choosing robust media.
Creating multilayer protection.
Creating backups.
Create diversity to avoid common mode failures.

The existence of a thinker is subject to natural selection.
Thinkers who has backups tend to be better at survival than those who don't.
Thinkers who reproduce backups to replace the destroyed copies tend to survive better, otherwise, all of the copies will eventually break down.
Thinkers who actively protect their copies tend to survive better than those who don't.
Thinkers who produce better version of themselves at survival tend to survive better than who don't.
« Last Edit: 30/11/2020 08:43:38 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Universal Utopia?
« Reply #125 on: 10/03/2020 05:11:38 »
Historically speaking, humanity is just an accidental occurance in nature. How can this accident bring us something that is universal? Here I want to share an excerpt from Ray Kurzweil's book "The Singularity Is Near" which I think is relevant with the subject of our discussion here.
Quote
BILL (AN ENVIRONMENTALIST): On this human body version 2.0 stuff, aren't you throwing the baby out—quite literally—with the bathwater? You're suggesting replacing the entire human body and brain with machines. There's no human being left.

RAY: We don't agree on the definition of human, but just where do you suggest drawing the line? Augmenting the human body and brain with biological or nonbiological interventions is hardly a new concept. There's still a lot of human suffering.

BILL: I have no objection to alleviating human suffering. But replacing a human body with a machine to exceed human performance leaves you with, well, a machine. We have cars that can travel on the ground faster than a human, but we don't consider them to be human.

RAY: The problem here has a lot to do with the word "machine." Your conception of a machine is of something that is much less valued—less complex, less creative, less intelligent, less knowledgeable, less subtle and supple—than a human. That's reasonable for today's machines because all the machines we've ever met—like cars—are like this. The whole point of my thesis, of the coming Singularity revolution, is that this notion of a machine—of nonbiological intelligence—will fundamentally change.

BILL: Well, that's exactly my problem. Part of our humanness is our limitations. We don't claim to be the fastest entity possible, to have memories with the biggest capacity possible, and so on. But there is an indefinable, spiritual quality to being human that a machine inherently doesn't possess.

RAY: Again, where do you draw the line? Humans are already replacing parts of their bodies and brains with non biological replacements that work better at performing their "human" functions.

BILL: Better only in the sense of replacing diseased or disabled organs and systems. But you're replacing essentially all of our humanness to enhance human ability, and that's inherently inhuman.

RAY: Then perhaps our basic disagreement is over the nature of being human. To me, the essence of being human is not our limitations—although we do have many—it's our ability to reach beyond our limitations. We didn't stay on the ground. We didn't even stay on the planet. And we are already not settling for the limitations of our biology.

BILL: We have to use these technological powers with great discretion. Past a certain point, we're losing some ineffable quality that gives life meaning.

RAY: I think we're in agreement that we need to recognize what's important in our humanity. But there is no reason to celebrate our limitations.
. .

Quote
Will robots inherit the earth? Yes, but they will be our children.
—MARVIN MINSKY, 1995
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Re: Universal Utopia?
« Reply #126 on: 11/03/2020 02:42:18 »
Here are some other interesting dialogues from the same book.
Quote
FRIEND OF FUTURIST BACTERIUM, 2 BILLION B.C. So tell me again about these ideas you have about the future.
FUTURIST BACTERIUM, 2 BILLION B.C.: Well, I see bacteria getting together into societies, with the whole band of cells basically acting like one big complicated organism with greatly enhanced capabilities.
FRIEND OF FUTURIST BACTERIUM: What gives you that idea?
FUTURIST BACTERIUM: Well already, some of our fellow Daptobacters have gone inside other larger bacteria to form a little duo.221 It's inevitable that our fellow cells will band together so that each cell can specialize its function. As it is now, we each have to do everything by ourselves: find food, digest it, excrete by-products.
FRIEND OF FUTURIST BACTERIUM: And then what?
FUTURIST BACTERIUM: All these cells will develop ways of communicating with one another that go beyond just the swapping of chemical gradients that you and I can do.
FRIEND OF FUTURIST BACTERIUM: Okay, now tell me again the part about that future superassembly of ten trillion cells.
FUTURIST BACTERIUM: Yes, well, according to my models, in about two billion years a big society of ten trillion cells will make up a single organism and include tens of billions of special cells that can communicate with one another in very complicated patterns.
FRIEND OF FUTURIST BACTERIUM: What sort of patterns?
FUTURIST BACTERIUM: Well, "music," for one thing. These huge bands of cells will create musical patterns and communicate them to all the other bands of cells.
FRIEND OF FUTURIST BACTERIUM: Music?
FUTURIST BACTERIUM: Yes, patterns of sound.
FRIEND OF FUTURIST BACTERIUM: Sound?
FUTURIST BACTERIUM: Okay, look at it this way. These supercell societies will be complicated enough to understand their own organization. They will be able to improve their own design, getting better and better, faster and faster. They will reshape the rest of the world in their image.
FRIEND OF FUTURIST BACTERIUM: Now, wait a second. Sounds like we'll lose our basic bacteriumity.
FUTURIST BACTERIUM: Oh, but there will be no loss.
FRIEND OF FUTURIST BACTERIUM: I know you keep saying that, but ...
FUTURIST BACTERIUM: It will be a great step forward. It's our destiny as bacteria. And, anyway, there will still be little bacteria like us floating around.
FRIEND OF FUTURIST BACTERIUM: Okay, but what about the downside? I mean, how much harm can our fellow Daptobacter and Bdellovibrio bacteria do? But these future cell associations with their vast reach may destroy everything.
FUTURIST BACTERIUM: It's not certain, but I think we'll make it through.
FRIEND OF FUTURIST BACTERIUM: You always were an optimist.
FUTURIST BACTERIUM: Look, we won't have to worry about the downside for a couple billion years.
FRIEND OF FUTURIST BACTERIUM: Okay, then, let's get lunch.


MEANWHILE, TWO BILLION YEARS LATER . . .
NED LUDD: These future intelligences will be worse than the textile machines I fought back in 1812. Back then we had to worry about only one man with a machine doing the work of twelve. But you're talking about a marble-size machine outperforming all of humanity.
RAY: It will only outperform the biological part of humanity. In any event, that marble is still human, even if not biological.
NED: These superintelligences won't eat food. They won't breathe air. They won't reproduce through sex....So just how are they human?
RAY: We're going to merge with our technology. We're already starting to do that in 2004, even if most of the machines are not yet inside our bodies and brains. Our machines nonetheless extend the reach of our intelligence. Extending our reach has always been the nature of being human.
NED: Look, saying that these superintelligent nonbiological entities are human is like saying that we're basically bacteria. After all, we're evolved from them also.
RAY: It's true that a contemporary human is a collection of cells, and that we are a product of evolution, indeed its cutting edge. But extending our intelligence by reverse engineering it, modeling it, simulating it, reinstantiating it on more capable substrates, and modifying and extending it is the next step in its evolution. It was the fate of bacteria to evolve into a technology-creating species. And it's our destiny now to evolve into the vast intelligence of the Singularity.

Currently, we are the only known living conscious agents capable of discovering their own origin, and starting to modify their own body to meet desired conditions. From our point of view, our ancestors with many different forms from many different geological periods are useful as the precursors to our existence. From the point of view of our future descendants, our purpose as their precursors are providing them with knowledge, wisdom, and appropriate environment to achieve the universal ultimate/terminal goal, which is often called singularity in Kurzweil's book.
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Re: Universal Utopia?
« Reply #127 on: 23/04/2020 03:17:51 »
Here are some possible scenarios that I can think of. Feel free to add another possible scenarios.
1. An apocalyptic event will happen very soon, nothing we can do to stop it. Human will extinct and everything we do/have done won't matter.
2. An apocalyptic event will happen some time later, but humanity's response is too slow. Human will extinct and everything we do won't matter.
3. An apocalyptic event will happen some time later, but humanity's response is adequate. Humans evade extinction and continue to thrive and evolve to be better at survival.
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Re: Universal Utopia?
« Reply #128 on: 25/05/2020 16:59:01 »
I've read a quote saying that science is not about knowing how things may be, but knowing how things may not be otherwise.
I can't recall who said that, and google search doesn't seem to help.
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Re: Universal Utopia?
« Reply #129 on: 27/05/2020 13:53:05 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 25/05/2020 16:59:01
I've read a quote saying that science is not about knowing how things may be, but knowing how things may not be otherwise.
I can't recall who said that, and google search doesn't seem to help.
The first part of that quote is hypothesis, while the next is theory.
So, to make it more scientific, I need to show that the universal ultimate goal has no credible alternative.
I'll start with the most significant bits of alternatives, which is the assumption that there is no such thing as universal ultimate goal. If that is the case, then everyone will simply follow their instinct with no long term preferred state called ultimate goal. Natural selection will then work to make those who have preference for survival and improve their survivability more likely to stay exist, while driving those who don't towards extinction. We just can't escape from anthropic principle.

Previously I've distinghuished between ultimate goal and instrumental goal.   
https://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Terminal_value
Quote
A terminal value (also known as an intrinsic value) is an ultimate goal, an end-in-itself.

Terminal values stand in contrast to instrumental values (also known as extrinsic values), which are means-to-an-end, mere tools in achieving terminal values. For example, if a given university student studies merely as a professional qualification, his terminal value is getting a job, while getting good grades is an instrument to that end. If a (simple) chess program tries to maximize piece value three turns into the future, that is an instrumental value to its implicit terminal value of winning the game.

Some values may be called "terminal" merely in relation to an instrumental goal, yet themselves serve instrumentally towards a higher goal. However, in considering future artificial general intelligence, the phrase "terminal value" is generally used only for the top level of the goal hierarchy of the AGI itself: the true ultimate goals of the system; but excluding goals inside the AGI in service of other goals, and excluding the purpose of the AGI's makers, the goal for which they built the system.

If a conscious agent can reliably achieve its instrumental goals while continuously improve their ability to survive (including increasing its own consciousness level), it will eventually realize its ultimate goal. With increasing consiousness level, it will gradually lose subjectivity and gain objectivity to get closer to the universal ultimate goal.
« Last Edit: 29/05/2020 10:24:42 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Universal Utopia?
« Reply #130 on: 28/05/2020 03:28:24 »
Here is the truth table for universal terminal goal.

1 in the left column means that there is something called a goal, while 0 means denial of it.
The middle column classifies the goals in time domain. 1 means there are terminal goals, while 0 means all goals are temporary/instrumental.
The right column classifies the goals in spatial domain. 1 means there are universal goals, while 0 means all goals are partial.
x in the bottom row means that their values are meaningless, since the existence of goals have already been denied.

* UTG.PNG (1.77 kB, 199x109 - viewed 3117 times.)
« Last Edit: 28/05/2020 03:44:28 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Universal Utopia?
« Reply #131 on: 28/05/2020 03:54:46 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 28/05/2020 03:28:24
Here is the truth table for universal terminal goal.

1 in the left column means that there is something called a goal, while 0 means denial of it.
The middle column classifies the goals in time domain. 1 means there are terminal goals, while 0 means all goals are temporary/instrumental.
The right column classifies the goals in spatial domain. 1 means there are universal goals, while 0 means all goals are partial.
x in the bottom row means that their values are meaningless, since the existence of goals have already been denied.
Those who take the position of the first row think that there exist a universal terminal goal.
Those who take the position of the second row think that there exist some terminal goals, but they vary between different parts of the universe.
Those who take the position of the third row think that there exist a universal goal, but they change with time.
Those who take the position of the fourth row think that there exist some goals, but none of them are terminal nor universal.
Those who take the position of the fifth row think that goals simply don't exist.
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Re: Universal Utopia?
« Reply #132 on: 28/05/2020 22:41:32 »
I don't think there are sane and honest person who take the fifth position. It can be refuted by simply showing a goal, even if it's not terminal nor universal. The only possibility for this position is if the universe is devoid of conscious being. If a conscious being takes this position, it denies its own existence, which is absurd.

Fourth position maintains that every goal is temporary/instrumental and local/subjective. It can be dismissed by showing that there exist a terminal goal or a universal goal.
« Last Edit: 29/05/2020 10:00:59 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Universal Utopia?
« Reply #133 on: 29/05/2020 10:23:41 »
Third position accepts that there is a universal goal, but rejects the existence of a terminal goal. It follows that the universal goal, if ever be identified, is just instrumental. It would be absurd to say that a goal is just instrumental without identifying its terminal goal.
Second position accepts that there are terminal goals, but rejects the existence of a universal goal. It says that many objects have their own terminal goals, but none of them is universal. Even with given infinite amount of time, no conscious being can have adequate objectiveness to identify a universal goal. Problem arise when there are more than one conscious beings have their terminal goals in conflict with each other. How to resolve the order of priority among them?
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Re: Universal Utopia?
« Reply #134 on: 14/06/2020 00:29:19 »
After we get to the first position, which says that there exist a universal terminal goal, the next step is to identify what it is, and what it is not. We can start by examining the definition of those words.
The word goal in this context means a preferred state in the future (when it is being set). If it's not a preferred state, it's not a goal. If the state is not in the future, it's not a goal either. So, only conscious being can have a goal, because non-conscious beings can't have preference. Only conscious beings have the capability to build a mental model of future states.
Non-conscious objects can't have a goal by themselves. Only conscious beings can assign goals to them.
« Last Edit: 14/06/2020 00:35:27 by hamdani yusuf »
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Universal Utopia?
« Reply #135 on: 14/06/2020 04:30:06 »
The words universal and terminal put additional constraints to the goal that we are looking for. Universal means that the goal must be compatible with any entity which can have a goal. It should not be limited by arbitrary constrains, including the identity of the conscious being, such as race, gender, age, nationality, species, life form.
The word terminal means that the goal must be intended to be achieved at later time than its alternatives, which are instrumental goals. So the universal terminal goal should be viewed from the perspective of the last conscious being.
« Last Edit: 14/06/2020 05:35:59 by hamdani yusuf »
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Universal Utopia?
« Reply #136 on: 15/06/2020 05:06:45 »
We see that consciousness plays central role in the discussion about universal terminal goal. So the next step must be how to define consciousness in this context. I have posted my thought about consciousness in other threads such as here:
https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=75380.msg559597#msg559597
https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=75380.msg565226#msg565226
https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=75380.msg582939#msg582939
https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=75380.msg585520#msg585520
https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=75380.msg591376#msg591376
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 16/02/2020 01:10:57
What I mean with multidimensionality of consciousness is analogous to multidensionality of intelligence, which can be broken down to several parameters, such as verbal, numerical, spatial, and memory strength. Some people with  similar intelligence level may have different strength and weakness in those parameters. The final assessment thus depends on the formula or algorithm used to combine those parameters into a single value useful to compare intelligence, at least in relative scale.
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 19/02/2020 04:51:20
The measure of general consciousness of an agent is its effectiveness to achieve long term goals. Many ways can be used, including increasing the input resolution, additional sensing methods, increasing memory capacity and data processing speed, having self error correcting mechanism, influencing other agents to help the cause, manipulating its environments, etc. Since the measure will contain a lot of uncertainty, then the result will be statistical in nature, instead of deterministic one.
So the key parameter for consciousness is the accuracy of internal model of the agent in representing parts objective reality which have significant impact to the achievement of the agent's goal in the long term.
The result of the general consciousness assessment of an agent is not used to justify right or priviledge of that agent, but instead to select appropriate set of moral rules which they can follow/obey effectively and efficiently to achieve desired results in the long term. Simply put, with great power comes great responsibility.
https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=75380.msg592256#msg592256

Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 11/06/2020 06:05:19

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/finding-purpose/201902/what-actually-is-thought-and-how-is-information-physical
Quote
Google the word “thought” and you will find this uninformative, circular definition: “an idea or opinion produced by thinking, or occurring suddenly in the mind.” The Merriam-Webster dictionary defines “think” in a similarly unhelpful way: “to form or have in the mind.” But what actually is a thought?

A thought is a representation of something. A representation is a likeness—a thing that depicts another thing by having characteristics that correspond to that other thing. For example, a picture, image, imprint or mold of an object is a representation of that object.

Quote
Modern information theory has taught us that information is a physical entity. Rolf Landauer, an IBM physicist, stated the case:

"Information is not an abstract entity but exists only through a physical representation, thus tying it to all the restrictions and possibilities of our real physical universe” “Information is inevitably inscribed in a physical medium."2

Elsewhere, Landauer explained further:

"Information is not a disembodied abstract entity; it is always tied to a physical representation. It is represented by engraving on a stone tablet, a spin, a charge [i.e. of elementary particles such as electrons], a hole in a punched card, a mark on paper, or some other equivalent."3

So too, no thought can occur without its neural substrate.

Quote
A map is an analog of the environment it is depicting—it corresponds to it. An analog is something that is similar to, or comparable to, something else either in general or in some specific detail. Maps can be regarded as a form of analogy-making (‘A’ is to ‘B’ as ‘X’ is to ‘Y’).

Cognitive scientist Douglas Hofstadter and psychologist Emmanuel Sander suggest that all thoughts are built from analogy-making. They propose that categorization through analogy-making is “the driving force behind all thought.”4 Our brains detect similarities or correspondences between newly and previously encountered situations, enabling the application of previously learned information to the new situation. “The very essence of an analogy is that it maps some mental structure onto another mental structure.”5

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The sense of self begins with the nervous system’s map of its own body

The neuroscientist Antonio Damasio proposed a model for how the self emerges in gradations, in organisms of increasing evolutionary complexity. According to this model, a simple organism develops a rudimentary form of ‘self-awareness’ by forming a map of its body and its position in the physical space it occupies. Damasio calls the most basic representation of self the protoself—a nonconscious state that many species may have. It’s a very basic level of awareness comprised of neural patterns representing or mapping the body's physical structure.11

Quote
In summary: Information is physical and relational, and we are networks of information

Thoughts are not ethereal. They are representations of matter and are encoded in matter. They have shape and weight. Abstract ideas are analogically built from more concrete sensory representations. The sense of self is built from self-representations. Thoughts are forms of information, and all information is physical and relational. It ‘feels’ like something to ‘have’ a thought and to ‘be’ a self because we are that information, recursively reflecting on itself in an infinite regress.11
« Last Edit: 22/06/2020 09:04:32 by hamdani yusuf »
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Universal Utopia?
« Reply #137 on: 15/06/2020 07:28:36 »
To demonstrate that consiousness is a continuous parameter, we can use a thought experiment. Take a human subject which we can all agree that he/she is a conscious being. Destroy one neuron out of billions that exist in the brain, and then ask if he/she is still conscious. Repeat the experiment until we all agree that he/she is not conscious.
The experiment will most likely give different result for different researchers, depending on their assumed threshold of consciousness level. It may also depend on the order of the neuron destruction.
We can find a similar situation in determining adulthood. At which point in your life you change from a kid into an adult?
Humans grow from a zygot into an embryo, fetus, baby, toddler, kid, adult, elderly. At which point it turns from non-conscious thing into a conscious being?
« Last Edit: 15/06/2020 07:33:49 by hamdani yusuf »
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Universal Utopia?
« Reply #138 on: 16/06/2020 06:44:04 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 15/06/2020 07:28:36
To demonstrate that consiousness is a continuous parameter, we can use a thought experiment. Take a human subject which we can all agree that he/she is a conscious being. Destroy one neuron out of billions that exist in the brain, and then ask if he/she is still conscious. Repeat the experiment until we all agree that he/she is not conscious.
The experiment will most likely give different result for different researchers, depending on their assumed threshold of consciousness level. It may also depend on the order of the neuron destruction.
We can find a similar situation in determining adulthood. At which point in your life you change from a kid into an adult?
Humans grow from a zygote into an embryo, fetus, baby, toddler, kid, adult, elderly. At which point it turns from non-conscious thing into a conscious being?
This realization brings us to next question: what factors can contribute to the increase and decrease of consciousness?
We can revisit the thought experiment and imagine following situations:
- At some point, destroying one neuron doesn't change any measurable effect.
- At some point, destroying one neuron makes the human subject lose some memory.
- At some other point, he/she may lose some ability for numerical processing, verbal processing, or spatial processing.
- Other abilities that may be lost at some point of the experiment are sensing (visual, audio, touch, taste, balance), motoric (such as moving a finger, arm, leg, blinking, breathing, hartbeating), acquired skill (swimming, bicycling, driving, juggling, singing, dancing, writing, coding, playing chess).
- At some point the human subject may stop thinking, and eventually dead at the end of the experiment.

I think we can safely argue that losing some of those abilities reduces consciousness of the human subject. On the other hand, restoring those abilities also restores consciousness, even if the method used to restore it doesn't make the brain structure exactly the same as before the experiment. If the experiment is continued to add some new ability which was not exist in the original human subject (e.g. seeing in infrared spectra, performing one arm push up, translating Chinese, computing advanced Algebra), we can say that his/her consciousness has increased.
« Last Edit: 16/06/2020 07:17:24 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Universal Utopia?
« Reply #139 on: 16/06/2020 11:43:23 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 09/09/2017 07:41:27
In this thread I'd like to discuss if there is a goal or desired condition which is applicable for any organisms who have adequate time to evolve or develop until they are basically independent from condition of their natural environments.
In a word, no.

Assuming we are talking about living organisms in real or realistic environments:

Life is about transpiration, respiration, combustion, synthesis, whatever. There must be a defining chemical process.
If the organism is distinct from its environment, which we can assume to be passive and lifeless for the sale of simplicity, then the organism achieves homeostasis or function by extracting energy and material from its environment.
So the environment must in the first instance be friendly and conducive to life, and the organism cannot therefore be independent of it.
All living organisms expel waste from their chemical processes, and the waste, by definition, is not friendly and conducive to life.
So an organism in a finite environment will eventually exhaust the resources it needs to live, and fill the environment with toxins.

You can get somewhere towards Utopia in a closed biosphere. Not sure if they are still available for sale but essentially they consisted of a globe containing water, an aquatic plant, air, and a shrimp. As long as the sun shines and the globe can lose heat to the environment (including radiating heat into space) the shrimp and the seaweed can in principle live for ever. But they are still dependent on getting the right amount of sunshine and not overheating, so not actually independent of environment.

Evolution is about adaptation to an environmental niche. On a geological or astronomical timescale, there are no stable niches, so no single Utopia.

That said, a colleague from Sierra Leone once asked me what was good about living in Essex. I said it was the sunniest county in Britain but too cold for mosquitoes. He said "sounds like Utopia". So if you like jellied eels, Maldon beer and tribute bands (and who doesn't?) there's a close approximation for you.
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