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  4. Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
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Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?

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Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #720 on: 04/02/2023 14:37:07 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 31/01/2023 06:55:54
Anytime someone pursue short term goals while sacrificing their terminal goal, we can call them stupid, or immoral.
There's another possibility, like being infected by parasites.

Quote
The Biology Behind The Last of Us
The infection from HBO's The Last of Us is actually based on a real parasitic fungus. This fungus turns insects into zombies. The creators of the game and the show were inspired by zombie carpenter ants. WIRED spoke with Dr. Charissa de Bekker to talk about the real fungus that inspired the show's infected, and how the show's zombies parallel these real-life ants.

Cordyceps: attack of the killer fungi - Planet Earth Attenborough BBC wildlife
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Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #721 on: 04/02/2023 14:44:11 »
Quote
What if, unbeknownst to you, someone—or something—was controlling your behavior for its own nefarious ends? Join photographer Anand Varma as he reveals this nightmare scenario being acted out over and over across the natural world, as unsuspecting hosts are compelled to nurture and protect mind-sucking parasites.

Besides the biological parasites, we can also observe ideological parasites.
Quote
Mental Immunity: Infectious Ideas, Mind-Parasites, and a Better Way to Think With Andy Norman

Philosopher Andy Norman answers the important questions impacting the world today. Why are ideologies poisoning public discourse? Why is extremism on the rise? How did we get here? What can we do about all of it?

It turns out some influential assumptions are suppressing our culture’s “immune response” to dangerous ideas. These assumptions prevent us from normalizing critical thinking, and leave us vulnerable to mind-parasites.

Fortunately, there’s a cure. In this talk, Andy Norman will isolate an idea with a long history of inoculating people against the worst forms of ideological contagion, and argue that we can fashion it into a mind vaccine.

Andy Norman directs the Humanism Initiative at Carnegie Mellon University. He studies how ideologies short-circuit minds and corrupt moral understanding. Then he develops tools that help people reason together in more fruitful ways. In his book Mental Immunity, he lays out the conceptual foundations of cognitive immunology—the emerging science of mental immune health.

« Last Edit: 04/02/2023 15:02:56 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #722 on: 04/02/2023 15:32:57 »
If we don't know our own terminal goal, then our decisions will be driven by compulsions, which may come from some parasites or foreign organisms within us. But not all parasites are equal. Some of them may turn out to be useful in some specific or local situations.

Quote
DNA Evidence That Humans & Chimps Share A Common Ancestor: Endogenous Retroviruses

Here we explore the amazing discovery of Endogenous Retroviruses (ERVs) in our own DNA. These are genetic remnants of antient virus infections suffered by our ancestors. It turns out that many of our Endogenous Retroviruses are shared by chimpanzees. This is because we share a common ancestor with them.
Are we still humans without our parasites? What if we get rid all of them?
« Last Edit: 04/02/2023 15:41:35 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #723 on: 04/02/2023 15:50:08 »
The study below suggests that we wouldn't even exist without viruses.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/02/170223124313.htm
Quote
New link found between sex and viruses
A protein required for sperm-egg fusion is identical to a protein viruses use to invade host cells
Date:
February 23, 2017
Source:
University of Maryland
Summary:
Sexual reproduction and viral infections both rely on a functionally identical protein, according to new research. The protein enables the fusion of two cells, such as a sperm cell and egg cell, or the fusion of a virus with a cell membrane. The discovery suggests that the protein evolved early in the history of life on Earth, and new details about the protein's function could help fight parasitic diseases such as malaria.

tein that enables the seamless fusion of two cells, such as a sperm cell and egg cell, or the fusion of a virus with a cell membrane. The protein is widespread among viruses, single-celled protozoans, and many plants and arthropods, suggesting that the protein evolved very early in the history of life on Earth.
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Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #724 on: 04/02/2023 16:34:49 »
Human politicians should learn some lessons from the smallest cooperative systems to achieve their terminal goal.

Quote
Can your genes turn against you? Genetic conflict & the Parliament of genes!

Why do genes cooperate so well? The truth is, they don't, at least not always. Here we explore how genes can rebel and what other genes in the genome must do to stop the rebels from ruining everything!


00:00 Do genes challenge Darwin's theory of evolution?
00:31 How does cooperation evolve?
01:13 Badger & coyote symbiosis
02:01 Bat & cactus mutualism
03:16 Cheating and policing can evolve
05:10 Selfish Genetic Elements are genes that cheat
06:27 Sex ratios in fruit flies
07:35 Sex-Ratio Distorters
09:19 Policing genes, AKA "Suppressor Elements"
10:34 The Parliament of Genes
13:26 Mathematics of the Parliament of Genes
14:32 Adaptation is maintained by the Parliament of Genes

Here's one of the comments.
Quote
Interesting to think about how this mechanism applies on the level of society as well. There are selfish elements: thieves, narcisists, corruption, etc. and clutures that evolve defenses against them, outcompete cultures that dont.
« Last Edit: 04/02/2023 16:42:43 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #725 on: 10/02/2023 12:23:07 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 28/01/2023 23:07:47
Capitalism is extremely efficient: it produces short term yields for investors. Don't confuse desirability or sustainability with efficiency.
Capitalism is effective at shifting the burden of responsibility from top players and decision makers to the followers, which gives them a way to avoid confession of failures. Great depression and great recession are some examples.

The System: Who Rigged It, How We Fix It | Robert Reich
Quote
Former Secretary of Labor Robert Reich presents the reader's digest of his latest book, The System: Who Rigged It, How We Fix It. He explores the system of power in America that bails out corporations instead of people, even in times of crisis, and breaks down how we have socialism for corporations and the rich, and harsh capitalism for everybody else.

As power has concentrated in the hands of corporations and the wealthy few, those few have grabbed nearly all the economic gains — and political power — for themselves.

Meanwhile, workers have been shafted.

This isn’t a democracy, where all power is shared. It’s an oligarchy, where those at the top have the power to grab everything for themselves.

But history shows that oligarchies cannot hold on to power forever. They are inherently unstable. When a vast majority of people come to view an oligarchy as illegitimate and an obstacle to their wellbeing — which is happening before our very eyes as this crisis exacerbates — oligarchies become vulnerable.
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Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #726 on: 22/02/2023 14:16:08 »
Why psychopaths rise to power | Brian Klaas
Quote
Why we keep giving power to the wrong people, according to political scientist and associate professor Brian Klaas.

Brian Klaas, a political scientist and associate professor at University College London, argues that while the popular phrase "power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely" is true to a certain extent, the real problem lies in broken systems that attract and promote the wrong kind of people.

In his research, Klaas has found that people who crave power are more likely to self-select into positions of power, resulting in a slate of leaders who are not representative of the general population. He believes that the solution is to design systems that attract better people.

Klaas challenges the notion that the people in power are entirely to blame and instead reflects on why society is drawn toward abusive leaders.

0:00 Why the wrong people are in charge
1:32 Is corruption universal?
2:11 Martin McFife, the HOA president from hell
3:28 Self-selection bias
4:14 Why we can’t resist “strongmen”
6:26 Expelling the worst of the worst

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Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #727 on: 24/02/2023 11:56:25 »
The Biggest Economic Lies We’re Told | Robert Reich
Quote
Just a thought: what if we stopped measuring the economy by the state of the stock market and started measuring it based on how many people are housed and clothed and fed?
What should be the correct measure of economy?
IMO, the correct measure of economy should reflect the likelihood of an economic system to achieve its economic goal, which is an instrumental goal to achieve its terminal goal.
Economic goal of a system is to distribute resources among its economic agents throughout space and time to optimally sustain its existence, including gaining more access to new resources which are previously unavailable.

The state of the stock market has an advantage as an economic measure because it's easy to measure. It's an integral part of capitalistic economy. Almost no additional effort is required to obtain the measured values of the stock market. But it should not be treated as a terminal goal, since it can be misled by market manipulation, pump and dump, stock buy back , etc.
« Last Edit: 25/02/2023 15:15:57 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #728 on: 26/02/2023 10:24:12 »
"The economy" is, as far as I can gather, all the money that changes hands.

Simplistically, this is a good measure of civilisation, since it implies that people are collaborating  for their common good: specific goods and services are exchanged for tokens that can be exchanged for any other goods and services. But that's a bit like estimating the useful output of an engine by measuring the rate of fuel flow - you have to assume that there are no leaks, excessive heat losses,  insufficient oxygen input, etc.

About one third of the British economy is mortgage payments, and nearly all of that is traded for secondhand houses with no significant added value in  terms of labor input since they were built. So a crude measure of gross cash flow is not an indicator of collaboration and productivity but heavily biased by speculation as to the future sale value of a physically depreciating fixed asset.

Stock market statistics are somewhat better indicators of the state of civilisation since they aggregate trade across the entire spectrum of human activity based the investors' confidence in the future productivity and efficiency of individual enterprises. Or should do. The current problem in the UK is that essential industries (food, power, water) and strategic infrastructures (telecoms and railways) are privately owned and not practically competitive. If Supplier A increases his prices, very few people will immediately change to buy from Supplier B, and there is no reason for B to maintain his price but profit to be made by increasing it to match A. So the share price for both companies is really based on the investors' perception of their ability to raise prices without losing customers, not to produce more or better product.
 
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Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #729 on: 02/03/2023 13:02:54 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 26/02/2023 10:24:12
"The economy" is, as far as I can gather, all the money that changes hands.
It would exclude barter, stock options, and some other activities from your definition.
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Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #730 on: 02/03/2023 23:37:40 »
Yes. But it also includes estimates for unreported cash flows from illegal drugs, prostitution, etc.,  so taken along with mortgage and other debt interest payments,"economic growth" may not be the Good Thing that economists and politicians want you to believe.
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Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #731 on: 03/03/2023 12:10:34 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 24/02/2023 11:56:25

Quote
Just a thought: what if we stopped measuring the economy by the state of the stock market and started measuring it based on how many people are housed and clothed and fed?
I think that this suggestion relies on some implicit assumptions.
More of productive people is good for the economic system, which means that they will help achieving its terminal goal.
Housed and clothed and fed people are better than people lack of those basic needs.
Other needs are not significant in determining people's productivity.
« Last Edit: 03/03/2023 13:20:07 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #732 on: 03/03/2023 13:52:24 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 03/03/2023 12:10:34
More of productive people is good for the economic system, which means that they will help achieving its terminal goal.
Assuming, of course, that the  terminal goal is to overpopulate the planet with humans who turn their environment into toxic waste.
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Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #733 on: 04/03/2023 00:13:58 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 03/03/2023 13:52:24
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 03/03/2023 12:10:34
More of productive people is good for the economic system, which means that they will help achieving its terminal goal.
Assuming, of course, that the  terminal goal is to overpopulate the planet with humans who turn their environment into toxic waste.
It sounds more like unintended or overlooked consequences. Seeing from the other perspective, the assumption can be rephrased, less unproductive people is good for the economic system.
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Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #734 on: 04/03/2023 10:00:09 »
Most economies depend on the production of waste. If everything worked perfectly and lasted for ever, manufacturing industry would cease. You can't sell makeup remover to people with tattooed faces.
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Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #735 on: 05/03/2023 15:51:57 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 04/03/2023 10:00:09
Most economies depend on the production of waste. If everything worked perfectly and lasted for ever, manufacturing industry would cease. You can't sell makeup remover to people with tattooed faces.
The economy is just an instrumental goal. It would be meaningless if it doesn't help to achieve the terminal goal of the society.
Telegraph operators and telephone switchboard operators have lost their jobs due to automation. Many bank tellers, toll road cashiers have also lost their jobs. Preserving existing products or services are not the most important things in economy.
« Last Edit: 05/03/2023 15:57:37 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #736 on: 06/03/2023 13:24:18 »
What if Money Was No Object? - Alan Watts
Quote
"So I always ask the question: What would you like to do if money were no object? How would you really enjoy spending your life? Well it's so amazing as the result of our kind of educational system, crowds of students say 'Well, we'd like to be painters, we'd like to be poets, we'd like to be writers' But as everybody knows you can't earn any money that way! Another person says 'Well I'd like to live an out-of-door's life and ride horses.' I said 'You wanna teach in a riding school?'

Let's go through with it. What do you want to do? When we finally got down to something which the individual says he really wants to do I will say to him 'You do that! And forget the money!' Because if you say that getting the money is the most important thing you will spend your life commpletely wasting your time! You'll be doing things you don't like doing in order to go on living - that is to go on doing things you don't like doing! Which is stupid! Better to have a short life that is full of which you like doing then a long life spent in a miserable way. And after all, if you do really like what you are doing - it doesn't really matter what it is - you can eventually become a master of it. It's the only way of becoming the master of something, to be really with it. And then you will be able to get a good fee for whatever it is. So don't worry too much, somebody is interested in everything. Anything you can be interested in, you'll find others who are.

But it's absolutely stupid to spend your time doing things you don't like in order to go on spending things you don't like, doing things you don't like and to teach our children to follow the same track. See, what we are doing is we are bringing up children and educating to live the same sort of lifes we are living. In order they may justify themselves and find satisfaction in life by bringing up their children to bring up their children to do the same thing. So it's all retch and no vomit - it never gets there! And so therefore it's so important to consider this question:

What do I desire?"

- Alan Watts
Economy is usually measured in the circulation of money. Let's ask ourselves, what is it for?
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Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #737 on: 06/03/2023 23:29:23 »
Quote

The civilization of mankind can be traced to the establishment of property rights. With property rights, individuals could own land, capital, and goods and then trade or sell them to others. This economic activity is referred to as “the market.” This doesn’t mean it necessarily takes place in a physical market; it simply means that goods and services are voluntarily traded.

For most of human history, property rights have been limited to those in power. For example, a king or lord had ultimate control over those who lived under their protection. If the king desired beets, farmers were to farm beets. If the lord needed horseshoes, blacksmiths forged horseshoes. Ordinary people had the ability to trade among themselves, but those in power could direct their production if they so desired, or punish those who resisted.

The emergence of capitalism changed this.

Capitalism is mass production of goods to satisfy the needs of the greatest number of people.

Capitalism was revolutionary by recognizing property rights for all, regardless of background and social standing. Under capitalism, even the most vulnerable in society had an absolute claim to their own labor and property. It did not guarantee equality of property, but capitalism eliminated any right by anyone else to infringe upon it.

In doing so, capitalism empowered consumers—rather than those in power—to influence what was produced in the economy. This happens via the profit mechanism. If enough people demand a good and it can be sold for more than it costs to produce, that means the production of that good is profitable.

Some of the richest people in the world today have made their money not by appealing to the rich, but by appealing to the masses. Walmart’s business model, for example, is geared toward selling goods cheaply to as many people as possible.

Critics of capitalism try to condemn it as “greed.” This is false. Greed and envy are human vices, and they exist in any economic system. What capitalism does is incentivize the production of goods and services that people desire on the market, rather than leaving those decisions to powerful individuals or governments.

Throughout human history, we have seen property rights and markets lift billions of people out of poverty. Everywhere in the world, property and economic freedom are correlated with improved quality of life, health, and life expectancy.

Capitalism is a peaceful system of collaboration between producers and consumers, and functions by the wants and needs of the greatest number of people. The government plays no role in a truly capitalist system. When the government interferes and forces regulations on producers and consumers, it ceases to be a capitalist system.

Capitalism is freedom of consumer choice.

Questions

Critics of capitalism accuse it of simply being "greed." Do you think it is greedy to profit from creating things that others want to buy?

Some people think that voting is the fairest way of making decisions for a group. What do you think?

If a majority of a group wants cheese pizza, but you want pepperoni, do you think it's fairer to allow you to buy your own pizza or go with the group?

Because capitalism empowers consumers, rather than politicians, the market often creates products that are just for fun, like video games. Do you think allowing consumers to spend money on these sorts of things is good, or would we be better off if the only products we can get have value to everyone (the "common good")?

Like other systems, capitalism was created with good intention. It has advantages as mentioned in the video. But it has its own weaknesses. Unaccounted negative externalities, and the tendency for monopoly of scarce resources.
« Last Edit: 07/03/2023 03:49:35 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #738 on: 14/03/2023 23:15:04 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 06/03/2023 13:24:18
What if Money Was No Object? - Alan Watts
Money is a form of virtualization of resources. Just like maps are virtualization of environments or locations. Virtual things are easier to manage and manipulate, so they can help in making plans, and probing best options through trial and error.
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Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #739 on: 20/03/2023 12:33:08 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 28/12/2022 13:49:02
Demonetizing Everything: A Post Capitalism World | Peter Diamandis | Exponential Finance
Quote
Singularity University Executive Chairman & Co-founder Peter Diamandis will share his views and predictions on the "demonetization of living" and how this shift will impact your life, your career, your organization, and the global economy.

The ultimate form of demonetization is when people don't have to pay anything just to stay alive. They can survive independently from other people.
In current form, humans need food and water just to stay alive. But most of us don't produce our own food, which is obvious if we have to pay for it. Ditto for drinking water. Advancement in genetic engineering may help toward that independence.


The Fantastically Weird World of Photosynthetic Sea Slugs | Michael Middlebrooks | TED
Quote
Meet the fantastically colorful and astonishingly adaptable sea slugs that found a way to photosynthesize (or create energy from sunlight) like plants. Diving deep into these often overlooked creatures, invertebrate zoologist Michael Middlebrooks introduces the solar-powered slugs that lost their shells -- but gained the ability to directly harness the power of the sun.

It would be an even more advanced stage than what I suggested in my other thread.
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 09/03/2023 12:23:28
Humans can invent better ways to synthesize food materials, i.e. more effective and efficient in converting energy sources like sunlight and raw materials into useful chemicals with less waste. Future humans can edit their own genetic code so they can synthesize vitamins, hence they don't depend on specific types of food.
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