[alancalverd]

How long do you expect the coal fire to last?

Until the coal runs out. A few hundred years, if the mine is big enough and there is an adequate oxygen supply.

Can it outlive the earth?

Obviously not - the coal layer is quite thin compared with the earth's crust.

[/quote]

[alancalverd]

Quote from: alancalverd on 03/08/2023 12:05:34
Sex, beer, flying, cricket. Or, in a word, Saturday.
Modern lifestyle has become so complex that we tend to forget the fundamentals which shape our priorities.

Not sure what you are getting at here! Sex is not modern, nor is beer, and classic Test cricket is a lot more enjoyable than its modern derivatives (it's the difference between chess and draughts). I sometimes fly gliders, which are very simple (though the modern plastic ones admittedly fly better than the the old wooden machines) and actually more pleasurable that the spam can with an engine.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

Quote from: alancalverd on 03/08/2023 12:05:34
Sex, beer, flying, cricket. Or, in a word, Saturday.
Modern lifestyle has become so complex that we tend to forget the fundamentals which shape our priorities.

Not sure what you are getting at here! Sex is not modern, nor is beer, and classic Test cricket is a lot more enjoyable than its modern derivatives (it's the difference between chess and draughts). I sometimes fly gliders, which are very simple (though the modern plastic ones admittedly fly better than the the old wooden machines) and actually more pleasurable that the spam can with an engine.

I was pointing out widespread confusions between terminal goal and instrumental goals among modern people.
Recreational sex is quite recent in geological time scale. So are recreational culinary, and recreational drugs and liquors.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

How long do you expect the coal fire to last?

Until the coal runs out. A few hundred years, if the mine is big enough and there is an adequate oxygen supply.

Can it outlive the earth?

Obviously not - the coal layer is quite thin compared with the earth's crust.

That's the difference between conscious and non-conscious entities. We are less dependent on our immediate environmental conditions. We can change our environment to better suit our goals.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

You won't feel pain nor boredom after you die.

How do you know? Almost the whole of religion depends on your statement being untrue. You are attacking the basis of the world's biggest and most evil industry!

From the study of every system that is known to stop working. Various neuroscientific studies show that way. Neurologists can block neurotransmitters for pain if they will, although removing negative feedback tends to make a system stop working.

[alancalverd]

Recreational sex is quite recent in geological time scale.

But sex has always been the overriding priority for males. We have no other purpose. The most evolved species are insects that only produce enough males to compete to fertilise the queen and die, and those deep-sea fish where the tiny male is absorbed into the female's body.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

The most evolved species

How do you measure that?

[alancalverd]

One measure of evolution would be the efficiency with which genes are passed on. Humans (indeed most mammals) are inefficient as the males weigh more and eat more than the females, whereas spiders, bees, etc manage to fertilise their ova with minimal redundant mass. 

Or you could measure collaborativeness. Some fish, birds and insects tend to form shoals for hunting or protection, and don't attack their own species. Humans invent bizarre reasons to kill other humans.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

One measure of evolution would be the efficiency with which genes are passed on. Humans (indeed most mammals) are inefficient as the males weigh more and eat more than the females, whereas spiders, bees, etc manage to fertilise their ova with minimal redundant mass.

What makes you choose this particular  measure over many others, like overall efficiency to survive, or the ability to survive in extreme conditions? How about the ability to change themselves and their environment to better suited for their survival?

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

Or you could measure collaborativeness. Some fish, birds and insects tend to form shoals for hunting or protection, and don't attack their own species. Humans invent bizarre reasons to kill other humans.

Some are cannibals.

Some humans have good moral character. They invent technology and discover science which give them the chance to build multiplanetary civilization.

[alancalverd]

Why would that be a Good Thing? All we do is increase entropy.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

Why would that be a Good Thing? All we do is increase entropy.

It's a good thing because it increases the chance of achieving the universal goal.
Building something decreases entropy in some area while increasing it in the other area.

[alancalverd]

But

(a) the "universal goal" doesn't seem to be in any way universal - it's entirely your own ambition with no logical foundation and

(b) overall, entropy always increases

so the goal imposed on the universe by its own behavior is heat death, and nothing else.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

(a) the "universal goal" doesn't seem to be in any way universal - it's entirely your own ambition with no logical foundation and

The universal goal is the most fundamental aspect of goals. Without it, there will be no goal at all.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

(b) overall, entropy always increases

Not really. It can stay the same. Look again at your formula closer.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

so the goal imposed on the universe by its own behavior is heat death, and nothing else.

A goal can only be imposed on conscious entities.

Is heat death actively pursued by something?

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

If you don't have any long term goal, then your decisions will be determined by short term goals such as feelings and emotions.
How long your goal term you can pursue effectively determines your consciousness level. Some adults might have the consciousness level of average toddlers.

[alancalverd]

Not really. It can stay the same. Look again at your formula closer.

If anything happens, ΔS > 0. ΔS = 0 only if there is no change. Anything you do will increase S.

[alancalverd]

Is heat death actively pursued by something?

It is an inevitable consequence of thermodynamics. No need for active pursuit, though any voluntary action you undertake could be construed as pursuit. Given that it will happen, is the last thing that will ever happen, and is pursued by everything in the universe, it is the universal goal.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

Is heat death actively pursued by something?

It is an inevitable consequence of thermodynamics. No need for active pursuit, though any voluntary action you undertake could be construed as pursuit. Given that it will happen, is the last thing that will ever happen, and is pursued by everything in the universe, it is the universal goal.

If something is not pursued, it's not a goal.