[profound (OP)]

The European ITER has been given the vast amounts of money but has nothing to show for it after many decades of research.

Billions have been wasted on it and there is no end in sight.

The project was supposed produce limitless energy  from fusion of hydrogen/helium isotopes,etc.

The researchers claim I.T.E.R. is simply to test plasma confinement for 90 seconds.
That is the Mission Statement. 90 seconds.

It has become a joke that fusion power will always be 30 years away ...just like a mirage in the desert.

Even Robert Bussard the inventor of the ITER torus concept admitted it was a dead end and yet this white elephant continues to be funded as nobody can admit that it is the wrong shape and will never work.

After looking at it in detail I can declare with full confidence that it will NEVER work because of a fundamental flaw in the concept and it should be shut down.

[Bored chemist]

What do you see as a problem there?

[Colin2B]

After looking at it in detail I can declare with full confidence that it will NEVER work because of a fundamental flaw in the concept and it should be shut down.

Please provide the details of your analysis so that others may comment

[evan_au]

ITER is not intended to produce grid power - it is for research purposes.
- Plasma instability has been a continual problem with all controlled fusion experiments.
- I heard two plasma researchers talking in terms that sounded like the plasma was alive.
- As a research project, ITER is intended to explore ways to manage plasma.
- The cost is enormous, but the potential gains are huge.
- The research into superconducting magnets and investment in production facilities will probably have spinoffs into MRI machines and other applications

It is probably more productive than a lot of military expenditure.

[profound (OP)]

ITER is not intended to produce grid power - it is for research purposes.
- Plasma instability has been a continual problem with all controlled fusion experiments.
- I heard two plasma researchers talking in terms that sounded like the plasma was alive.
- As a research project, ITER is intended to explore ways to manage plasma.
- The cost is enormous, but the potential gains are huge.
- The research into superconducting magnets and investment in production facilities will probably have spinoffs into MRI machines and other applications

It is probably more productive than a lot of military expenditure.

I am afraid you are simply excusing failure AND a dead end.It's not going to work for energy production no matter much time and money is spent on it.

You failed to read the title and remember it.

Here is a clue.

Try to balance a pencil on it's point.

[Colin2B]

Still awaiting your claimed detailed analysis - or was that all of it??

[Bored chemist]

ou failed to read the title and remember it.

Well, I remember it.
And I remember wondering what shape you thought it should be, and why.
And I remember you not bothering to say.
I also remember asking you a question.
And I don't remember you asking.

Did you forget?

I am afraid you are simply excusing failure

It's been quite successful.

[profound (OP)]

ou failed to read the title and remember it.

Well, I remember it.
And I remember wondering what shape you thought it should be, and why.
And I remember you not bothering to say.
I also remember asking you a question.
And I don't remember you asking.

Did you forget?

I am afraid you are simply excusing failure

It's been quite successful.

Yes.your right.It's been successful at failure.

A insider tells me its a huge administrative and bureaucratic nightmare with all these different nations.Each and every great goal is divided into ever smaller incremental goals: anything BUT bold (the BIG is the Bold, not the result). Every modest goal, subdivided. Every larger project decimated.

The real goal of Big European Science is to PUBLISH and endless stream of papers. The ITER? It is definitely yielding huge results as a PAPER generator. Megasheets per year. Every test generates up to gigabytes of additional data, the likes of which is so complex that at least as much money is being spent now to make new instrumentation for it than was invested to produce the instrument itself.

Spend a million a year, and you get a handful of bosses. Spend a billion and you get a United Nations Subcommittee JUST to create National Science Foundation committees and chairs to oversee the oversight of the sightseeing professional pillbugs that run the joint. Deputy Sub-adjunct of the Department of Internationally Sensitive Foods and Toiletries.

Meetings - Oh, the meetings. The meetings to plan the calendar of meetings. The meetings to review the calendar of meetings and debate the authority to change the schedule of meetings. The director(s) - politically correctly chosen from participating nations that oddly enough fail to have much in the way of scientists, but a plethora of modestly well paid bureaucrats that insist that there is nothing more important that a well rounded calendar of progress, direction, budget, mandates-and-goals subcommittee plenary meetings.



Accounting. Every bean, stick of gum, replaceable HB 0.5 mm pencil lead, non-magnetic Torx-headed screw, every square inch of Internationally Sensitive Toiletries, every gram of commestibles, every milliliter of water, oxygen, hydrogen and especially replacement HPM filter pads must be accounted for. Accounted for, so that the costs can be proportionately subdivided by the participating nations. And for every employee and/or graduate student, professional, consultant, scientist and curator, to be divided by nationality, sêx, sexual preference, and Special Needs.

Revolving door leadership - In, eat the croissants, flap the jowls, check out the toilets and EXIT 1 to 2 years later.

Awards Everyone gets an award! Awards for getting the most awards. Awards for having the longest tenure. Awards for Continual Adaptation of the Crazy Experiment to rapidly changing geopolitical scientific mandates and direction realignment. Awards for showing up on time. For most papers printed. For showing extraordinary sensitivity in consuming the Canteens' Internationally Diverse Menu of Foods. Translated into 88 working languages and a few mythical dialects.

As I said to you folks before what shape is the fusion powered Sun?



I

[Bored chemist]

ou failed to read the title and remember it.

Well, I remember it.
And I remember wondering what shape you thought it should be, and why.
And I remember you not bothering to say.
I also remember asking you a question.
And I don't remember you asking.

Did you forget?

I am afraid you are simply excusing failure

It's been quite successful.

Yes.your right.It's been successful at failure.

A insider tells me its a huge administrative and bureaucratic nightmare with all these different nations.Each and every great goal is divided into ever smaller incremental goals: anything BUT bold (the BIG is the Bold, not the result). Every modest goal, subdivided. Every larger project decimated.

The real goal of Big European Science is to PUBLISH and endless stream of papers. The ITER? It is definitely yielding huge results as a PAPER generator. Megasheets per year. Every test generates up to gigabytes of additional data, the likes of which is so complex that at least as much money is being spent now to make new instrumentation for it than was invested to produce the instrument itself.

Spend a million a year, and you get a handful of bosses. Spend a billion and you get a United Nations Subcommittee JUST to create National Science Foundation committees and chairs to oversee the oversight of the sightseeing professional pillbugs that run the joint. Deputy Sub-adjunct of the Department of Internationally Sensitive Foods and Toiletries.

Meetings - Oh, the meetings. The meetings to plan the calendar of meetings. The meetings to review the calendar of meetings and debate the authority to change the schedule of meetings. The director(s) - politically correctly chosen from participating nations that oddly enough fail to have much in the way of scientists, but a plethora of modestly well paid bureaucrats that insist that there is nothing more important that a well rounded calendar of progress, direction, budget, mandates-and-goals subcommittee plenary meetings.



Accounting. Every bean, stick of gum, replaceable HB 0.5 mm pencil lead, non-magnetic Torx-headed screw, every square inch of Internationally Sensitive Toiletries, every gram of commestibles, every milliliter of water, oxygen, hydrogen and especially replacement HPM filter pads must be accounted for. Accounted for, so that the costs can be proportionately subdivided by the participating nations. And for every employee and/or graduate student, professional, consultant, scientist and curator, to be divided by nationality, sêx, sexual preference, and Special Needs.

Revolving door leadership - In, eat the croissants, flap the jowls, check out the toilets and EXIT 1 to 2 years later.

Awards Everyone gets an award! Awards for getting the most awards. Awards for having the longest tenure. Awards for Continual Adaptation of the Crazy Experiment to rapidly changing geopolitical scientific mandates and direction realignment. Awards for showing up on time. For most papers printed. For showing extraordinary sensitivity in consuming the Canteens' Internationally Diverse Menu of Foods. Translated into 88 working languages and a few mythical dialects.

As I said to you folks before what shape is the fusion powered Sun?



I

That's the first mention of the word "Sun" on this page.
So this bit "As I said to you folks before what shape is the fusion powered Sun?" is even more obviously bollocks than the rest of your post.
Its design brief was to produce experimental data. And you seem to think that you should ridicule it for doing exactly that.
What were you expecting?
Unicorns?

[evan_au]

what shape is the fusion powered Sun?

Roughly spherical, using gravitational containment of the plasma.

Unfortunately, we can't use gravitational containment for power stations on the Earth, as the power stations would implode.
So physicists have been investigating other methods, like:
- X-Rays: has been demonstrated, but only works if you don't care much about EH&S issues (Environment, Health & Safety)
- Lasers: Stresses the limits of our current laser technology
- Magnetic fields: Potentially feasible. Current superconducting magnets have sufficient average strength, but they also needs fast-acting measurement and control systems to temporarily increase the field where the plasma starts to break out, then return it to baseline once the breakout is contained.

The other aspect is just sheer size. Volume grows faster than the area, and you lose most of the heat through the surface area.
- It is said that some of our existing fusion reactor designs would reach "break even" if you only scaled them up physically.
- But this would not produce power competitively with nuclear fission, solar or coal

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawson_criterion

its a huge administrative and bureaucratic nightmare

Yes, international cooperation is a major logistical nightmare - but so is military development; and war is an even greater logistical nightmare (especially if you really cared about EH&S)!.

So I would rather have international cooperation over nuclear fusion than an international war using nuclear fusion (as some hot-heads are currently promoting).

[profound (OP)]

what shape is the fusion powered Sun?

Roughly spherical, using gravitational containment of the plasma.

Unfortunately, we can't use gravitational containment for power stations on the Earth, as the power stations would implode.
So physicists have been investigating other methods, like:
- X-Rays: has been demonstrated, but only works if you don't care much about EH&S issues (Environment, Health & Safety)
- Lasers: Stresses the limits of our current laser technology
- Magnetic fields: Potentially feasible. Current superconducting magnets have sufficient average strength, but they also needs fast-acting measurement and control systems to temporarily increase the field where the plasma starts to break out, then return it to baseline once the breakout is contained.

The other aspect is just sheer size. Volume grows faster than the area, and you lose most of the heat through the surface area.
- It is said that some of our existing fusion reactor designs would reach "break even" if you only scaled them up physically.
- But this would not produce power competitively with nuclear fission, solar or coal

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawson_criterion

its a huge administrative and bureaucratic nightmare

Yes, international cooperation is a major logistical nightmare - but so is military development; and war is an even greater logistical nightmare (especially if you really cared about EH&S)!.

So I would rather have international cooperation over nuclear fusion than an international war using nuclear fusion (as some hot-heads are currently promoting).

If you read my original post carefully you will see i never mention gravity.

[Colin2B]

If you read my original post carefully you will see i never mention gravity.

No but in reply you did say:

what shape is the fusion powered Sun?

@evan_au was answering that question in relation to your reply. Just to explain what he is saying, the sun is spherical because of gravity and gravity is also the containment field.

After looking at it in detail I can declare with full confidence that it will NEVER work because of a fundamental flaw in the concept and it should be shut down.

If that is the full extent of your 'detailed' analysis other, deeper thinkers such as @Thebox will run rings round you.
So, do you have a detailed anaysis or not?

[Bill S]

Vague, unsubstantiated, reference to “insider” information; a salmagundi of detailed criticism of administration, staffing etc; a distinct reluctance to answer questions directly; occasional “shouting”;  could these things possibly be indications of trolling, one wonders?     

[Bored chemist]

If you read my original post carefully you will see i never mention gravity.

The trouble is that, if we read all your posts, we see that you never mention anything substantial.
Do you plan to?

[profound (OP)]

If you read my original post carefully you will see i never mention gravity.

The trouble is that, if we read all your posts, we see that you never mention anything substantial.
Do you plan to?

If you read my original post carefully you will see i never mention gravity.

No but in reply you did say:

what shape is the fusion powered Sun?

@evan_au was answering that question in relation to your reply. Just to explain what he is saying, the sun is spherical because of gravity and gravity is also the containment field.

After looking at it in detail I can declare with full confidence that it will NEVER work because of a fundamental flaw in the concept and it should be shut down.

If that is the full extent of your 'detailed' analysis other, deeper thinkers such as @Thebox will run rings round you.
So, do you have a detailed anaysis or not?

i was really hoping you would figure it out yourself but sorrowfully you failed.So here is another clue.

Sun is a sphere of hot plasma...the other is a round ribbon of plasma which keeps kinking out of shape and hits the walls,loses energy and containment fails.

As you can see in a spherical shape you cannot have these kinks but in a circular ribbon of plasma it's impossible to stop the kinking no matter how much you try.The slightest imperfection in the containment and it kinks out of shape,hits the containment walls,loses energy and POOF!!! its loses containment.

I hope that is enough of a clue but here is another its called  D.O.F.

[Bored chemist]

As you can see in a spherical shape you cannot have these kinks

As you see, you really can.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_harmonics

So, since you are plainly wrong, perhaps you would like to apologise.

[profound (OP)]

As you can see in a spherical shape you cannot have these kinks

As you see, you really can.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_harmonics

So, since you are plainly wrong, perhaps you would like to apologise.

As you can see in a spherical shape you cannot have these kinks

As you see, you really can.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_harmonics

So, since you are plainly wrong, perhaps you would like to apologise.

that is beside the point as proved by the sun.also you forgot the 2nd clue.

in the sun fusion occurs at the center and any kinks simply encounter more plasma surrounding it.in a torus doughnut any kinks overcome the containment and hit the containment walls and lose energy and the fusion reaction fails.Even Robert Bussard disowned it.

The ITER is a huge failure and will continue to be no matter what they do.The cost has ballooned to 40 billion to pay all the bureaucrats and the date put off to 2054 now...what a expensive joke.

[Bored chemist]

in the sun fusion occurs at the center and any kinks simply encounter more plasma surrounding it.in a torus doughnut any kinks overcome the containment

Do you not realise the contradiction there?
It's as if you haven't thought this through.

[evan_au]

The ITER is a huge failure and will continue to be no matter what they do.The cost has ballooned to 40 billion...what a expensive joke.

Australia is a fairly small country (population 24 million), but Australia is spending $50 billion (AUD) on submarines.
The USA uses nuclear submarines, at about $5 billion each (not including the nuclear missiles).

ITER is a consortium of at least 20 countries, totalling over 2 billion population. On a per-capita basis, ITER is very economical, and will do more for humanity than all the world's submarines.

As you can see in a spherical shape you cannot have these kinks but in a circular ribbon of plasma it's impossible to stop the kinking no matter how much you try.

There is more to it than just the shape.
- The JET project did manage to produce 16 Megawatts of fusion energy. This was with a torus-type design, but smaller than ITER.
- There are devices called "spherical Tokamaks", but they still use toroidal magnetic fields
- It is very hard to contain plasma in a sphere using magnetic fields - that is why most of the recent research has been based on the Russian Tokamak design, with a toroidal magnetic field.

If you want to contain a plasma, you could imitate the Sun and surround it with 400,000km of insulating gas - but then it becomes impractically large for use near cities.
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_European_Torus#Future

[profound (OP)]

in the sun fusion occurs at the center and any kinks simply encounter more plasma surrounding it.in a torus doughnut any kinks overcome the containment

Do you not realise the contradiction there?
It's as if you haven't thought this through.

actually i have.in a sphere the particles only have 2 main DEGREES OF FREEDOM....

outwards and inwards.

the outward pressure gas radiation pressure is balanced by gravity.

in a sphere there can be no kinks at the center.

in a doughnut plasma ribbon you have 6 degrees of freedom for any particle.this is why it keeps failing.

the particles from the circular ribbon can kink in any direction due to the slightest imperfection in the magnetic field.up down.left right.in out.


its like balancing a pencil on its point..the whole gizmo is unstable no matter what you do.