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  4. Can kinetic energy be the source of a gravitational field?
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Can kinetic energy be the source of a gravitational field?

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Marked as best answer by jeffreyH on 26/03/2018 12:28:30

Offline Colin2B

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Re: Can kinetic energy be the source of a gravitational field?
« Reply #40 on: 25/03/2018 23:17:15 »
Quote from: jeffreyH on 24/03/2018 19:54:47
I am not convinced about the veracity of the above equation.
Now much of the deadwood has been pruned it’s easier to see the trees.

Question I have about this  05ac4e87b12276bafa7040cef17fedf9.gif  is what do you do about a78755b4882cc3dc7027f8bac63d43ee.gif which changes with velocity and hence with time so do you need to include  26a7b52aa8d8552232b2ad0acec1dfcb.gif on the rhs ?
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Offline jeffreyH (OP)

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Re: Can kinetic energy be the source of a gravitational field?
« Reply #41 on: 26/03/2018 10:09:20 »
If you look at the equation for the Lorentz factor above then I would say yes that is likely to be the case.
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Offline jeffreyH (OP)

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Re: Can kinetic energy be the source of a gravitational field?
« Reply #42 on: 26/03/2018 12:42:46 »
Quote from: Colin2B on 25/03/2018 23:17:15
Quote from: jeffreyH on 24/03/2018 19:54:47
I am not convinced about the veracity of the above equation.
Now much of the deadwood has been pruned it’s easier to see the trees.

Question I have about this  05ac4e87b12276bafa7040cef17fedf9.gif  is what do you do about a78755b4882cc3dc7027f8bac63d43ee.gif which changes with velocity and hence with time so do you need to include  26a7b52aa8d8552232b2ad0acec1dfcb.gif on the rhs ?

That results in ce93929b4c3b59cc2f1f3fb28c6ab018.gif which can be rearranged as 91c245c9aa3436c6618a01966948c962.gif. Now we are into homogeneous first order differential equation territory.
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Offline jeffreyH (OP)

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Re: Can kinetic energy be the source of a gravitational field?
« Reply #43 on: 26/03/2018 12:48:15 »
Now I've just got to lift and separate. Er, sorry, separate and integrate.
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Offline PmbPhy

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Re: Can kinetic energy be the source of a gravitational field?
« Reply #44 on: 26/03/2018 13:04:09 »
Quote from: jeffreyH on 23/03/2018 12:42:52
I think not but it would be interesting to get other views on the subject.
Yes. All forms of energy can create a gravitational field. Its whatever the T^00 component of the stress-energy-momentum consists of. Didn't I ever mention that the energy of a photon or a directed beam of light is all kinetic energy and that light can create a gravitational  field? This was done way back in 1931 by Tolman, Ehrenfest and Podolsky in the article

On The Gravitational Field Produced by Light, Tolman, Ehrenfest and Podolsky, Physical Review, Vol. (37), March 1, 1931, pg 602-615.

I placed it online in my own words at:
http://www.newenglandphysics.org/physics_world/gr/grav_light.htm
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Offline jeffreyH (OP)

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Re: Can kinetic energy be the source of a gravitational field?
« Reply #45 on: 26/03/2018 17:17:54 »
Thanks Pete. I'll have a read through.
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Offline jeffreyH (OP)

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Re: Can kinetic energy be the source of a gravitational field?
« Reply #46 on: 26/03/2018 18:10:13 »
Putting the equation through Wolfram Alpha gives the following 2 solutions.

58f319fb0ea64d76a9b64948b4646153.gif

972a34b11cd53f22e735c3f40ba48d5a.gif
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Offline jeffreyH (OP)

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Re: Can kinetic energy be the source of a gravitational field?
« Reply #47 on: 26/03/2018 18:17:03 »
Determining c1?
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Offline jeffreyH (OP)

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Re: Can kinetic energy be the source of a gravitational field?
« Reply #48 on: 26/03/2018 18:34:17 »
Start with

770f1f2f45c20bc548e242729313fbff.gif

a46d08133792d2a68d8be5de7b7bb500.gif

bdf8c89eee7e8bce379bee37f383760a.gif
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Offline jeffreyH (OP)

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Re: Can kinetic energy be the source of a gravitational field?
« Reply #49 on: 26/03/2018 18:37:05 »
I haven't even checked the dimensions!
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Offline Colin2B

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Re: Can kinetic energy be the source of a gravitational field?
« Reply #50 on: 26/03/2018 18:52:34 »
Quote from: jeffreyH on 26/03/2018 12:42:46
That results in ce93929b4c3b59cc2f1f3fb28c6ab018.gif which can be rearranged as 91c245c9aa3436c6618a01966948c962.gif. Now we are into homogeneous first order differential equation territory.
What I was thinking was to move  ae539dfcc999c28e25a0f3ae65c1de79.gif from under F and move it to rhs
So -  76386a1cce9045b4a6089b864a2eaf6b.gif

What do you think?
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Offline jeffreyH (OP)

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Re: Can kinetic energy be the source of a gravitational field?
« Reply #51 on: 26/03/2018 19:19:13 »
Quote from: Colin2B on 26/03/2018 18:52:34
Quote from: jeffreyH on 26/03/2018 12:42:46
That results in ce93929b4c3b59cc2f1f3fb28c6ab018.gif which can be rearranged as 91c245c9aa3436c6618a01966948c962.gif. Now we are into homogeneous first order differential equation territory.
What I was thinking was to move  ae539dfcc999c28e25a0f3ae65c1de79.gif from under F and move it to rhs
So -  76386a1cce9045b4a6089b864a2eaf6b.gif

What do you think?

I can give that a go.
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Offline jeffreyH (OP)

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Re: Can kinetic energy be the source of a gravitational field?
« Reply #52 on: 26/03/2018 20:06:00 »
The conclusion I am coming to is that what is needed is a non homogeneous differential equation with a periodic force. So we basically introduce a wave function and apply the Lorentz factor. I have seen this method used without gamma. I have to think about how to introduce gamma. This would relate very well to both force and time dilation via the wave function.
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Offline jeffreyH (OP)

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Re: Can kinetic energy be the source of a gravitational field?
« Reply #53 on: 26/03/2018 20:55:48 »
I have found one discussion on differentiating the Lorentz factor with respect to time. Pretty short.
https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/differentiating-lorentz-factor-with-respect-to-time.153702/
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Re: Can kinetic energy be the source of a gravitational field?
« Reply #54 on: 26/03/2018 22:57:21 »
Sorry, what I posted doesn’t make sense, I was too focused on gamma vs time.
Try d23ad824d157534835d11a6aa57232d5.gif
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Re: Can kinetic energy be the source of a gravitational field?
« Reply #55 on: 30/03/2018 16:13:14 »
Well if we use the product rule on (dp)/(dt) we get m*(dv/dt)+v*(dm/dt). Then it is just a case of applying this to F=d(pγ)/(dt).
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Re: Can kinetic energy be the source of a gravitational field?
« Reply #56 on: 30/03/2018 17:05:05 »
The Lorentz factor is a nightmare here. I am looking at things like the four gradient at the moment. The gradient dγ/dβ works out as c2/[vc-v2]. This may work for the changing force. I have to double check. Here gamma is the Lorentz factor and beta is v/c.
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Re: Can kinetic energy be the source of a gravitational field?
« Reply #57 on: 30/03/2018 17:14:05 »
We can see that mass flow rate is also part of the overall solution via dm/dt.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_flow_rate
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Re: Can kinetic energy be the source of a gravitational field?
« Reply #58 on: 30/03/2018 17:21:12 »
So what do we have? fc26ae13ce9bbbc83e0bbd884044c7c5.gif
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Re: Can kinetic energy be the source of a gravitational field?
« Reply #59 on: 31/03/2018 11:29:27 »
Now all I have to do is find a transform to convert the force in the primed frame to the force seen be the stationary observer. Then I can think about the possible relationship to gravity.
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